Who told us "socialized medicine" was bad?

[Nordberg]

Just think how many people would be unemployed. What would you suggest we give them as alternate jobs?

They would be differently employed. There would be a transition period while records were placed into hospital computers.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

They would be differently employed. There would be a transition period while records were placed into hospital computers.

Or, they would become long-term unemployed. There is no guarantee that they could be retrained on some new job or needed to work at hospitals on computers already manned by other workers.

For example, there is a massive shortage of trade and construction workers in the US. These workers we're discussing potentially could be retrained into these trades. I doubt most of them, a good chunk being female, would be willing to move to a trade job requiring manual labor and getting sweaty and dirty versus their previous office work sitting in a chair at a computer screen. I'd toss in many couldn't handle the math and trade knowledge involved leaving them at best as semi-skilled labor working under a journeyman.

 

[Nordberg]

Or, they would become long-term unemployed. There is no guarantee that they could be retrained on some new job or needed to work at hospitals on computers already manned by other workers.

For example, there is a massive shortage of trade and construction workers in the US. These workers we're discussing potentially could be retrained into these trades. I doubt most of them, a good chunk being female, would be willing to move to a trade job requiring manual labor and getting sweaty and dirty versus their previous office work sitting in a chair at a computer screen. I'd toss in many couldn't handle the math and trade knowledge involved leaving them at best as semi-skilled labor working under a journeyman.

The government would need experienced medical people to setup and man their systems. Transferring data for doctors to the medical system would take man-hours, too.

 

[Jake Starkey]

Nordberg is 100% correct.

Universal healthcare is a disaster. Using insurance to pay for routine healthcare is a disaster. Don't let some blonde bimbo in a shitmobile tell you differently.

Nordberg Damn, are you stupid? I have several Canadians in my family. They bitch about their medical system. people bitch, as you do. Ask them if they would rather have our system, and they are shocked by how stupid that is. Hell no.
Not only would universal healthcare slash bankruptcies, but it would give people peace.
If we had universal healthcare, people could shift jobs without having an uncovered period of time. If you wanted to start a business, you would not have to pay employees' healthcare.
How nice would it be not to worry about healthcare expenses? Your whole family is covered from day one.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Great minds think alike.

It is capitalism. They are trying to squeeze every drop of profit out of health care.

I have a different take.

Said totally un-ironicly, folks.

Right wing medical health businesses and their bought politicans demonize socialized medicine.

Boy, if they could see us now

A human can act as a bot. Possibly autistic.

As I see it, an integral part of "fixing" our healthcare system is eliminating insurance companies. Their focus MUST BE on maximizing profits...and they do not actually participate in the "care of health" aspect of the issue.

Doctors looking to maximize their income put a strain on the system also.

It is an issue that needs huge and complex adjustments on the part of society.

Absorbing the costs of educating healthcare workers...and paying them a salary for a fixed period of time seems to be the most logical move.

Not something easy to get done. The lobbying against it by people with a vested interest in retaining what we have going for us now will be enormous. But to simply dismiss it as something that will never happen is not an option.

 

[Tobytone]

big pharma controls medicine and gets the profit.

all the people pay for it and there are no cost controls, just mandates.

it's fascism, not socialism.

I have no interest in discussing your ideas about healthcare. Not even a little. My gripe? The libtards have no idea what fascism is and whatever you are so as hell doesn't either. Try to take a minute and learn your 'isms' instead of proving you're a moron before you even start.

This is for your benefit as well as any of you libtards that are as clueless about fascism as this crazy bastard.

Here is a simple, short bullet-point list of the core requirements
historians and scholars agree are needed to describe a movement or regime as fascism. It's been so mis-used, they had to name it, 'The fascism minimum.' Look it up dumbass, please.

1 - Extreme/ultranationalism — The nation (or race) is placed above everything else, often with a myth of national rebirth or revival (palingenesis).
2 - Authoritarian/dictatorial leadership — Centralized power under a strong, often charismatic leader (cult of personality) who demands obedience.
3- Rejection of democracy and liberalism — Contempt for parliamentary systems, individual rights, pluralism, and political equality.
4 - Suppression of opposition — Forcible elimination or silencing of dissent, political enemies, or "internal threats."
5 - Glorification of violence and militarism — Use of force, paramilitary groups, and war-like values as positive and regenerative tools.
6 - Subordination of the individual to the state/nation — The collective national interest overrides personal freedoms and rights.

Just to be clear, these all must be present, not just one or two. That's not how it works. Take any of these away and you're talking about something else. For example, you can't remove number 5 and still be a fascist. Not sure I've seen any healthcare armies or violent thugs running around advocating for national Healthcare. Have you?

 

[Ichabod Stain]

I have no interest in discussing your ideas about healthcare. Not even a little. My gripe? The libtards have no idea what fascism is and whatever you are so as hell doesn't either. Try to take a minute and learn your 'isms' instead of proving you're a moron before you even start.

This is for your benefit as well as any of you libtards that are as clueless about fascism as this crazy bastard.

Here is a simple, short bullet-point list of the core requirements
historians and scholars agree are needed to describe a movement or regime as fascism. It's been so mis-used, they had to name it, 'The fascism minimum.' Look it up dumbass, please.

1 - Extreme/ultranationalism — The nation (or race) is placed above everything else, often with a myth of national rebirth or revival (palingenesis).
2 - Authoritarian/dictatorial leadership — Centralized power under a strong, often charismatic leader (cult of personality) who demands obedience.
3- Rejection of democracy and liberalism — Contempt for parliamentary systems, individual rights, pluralism, and political equality.
4 - Suppression of opposition — Forcible elimination or silencing of dissent, political enemies, or "internal threats."
5 - Glorification of violence and militarism — Use of force, paramilitary groups, and war-like values as positive and regenerative tools.
6 - Subordination of the individual to the state/nation — The collective national interest overrides personal freedoms and rights.

Just to be clear, these all must be present, not just one or two. That's not how it works. Take any of these away and you're talking about something else. For example, you can't remove number 5 and still be a fascist. Not sure I've seen any healthcare armies or violent thugs running around advocating for national Healthcare. Have you?

blah blah blah.

fascism is just the union of state and corporate power. period.

you can try to apply all these other conditions and qualifiers, but that just you, the fascist, being desperate.

it can be internationalist in nature, like the junta now.

that's just called internationalist fascism.

now absorb your lesson and fuck off.

 

[Tobytone]

blah blah blah.

fascism is just the union of state and corporate power. period.

you can try to apply all these other conditions and qualifiers, but that just you, the fascist, being desperate.

it can be internationalist in nature, like the junta now.

that's just called internationalist fascism.

now absorb your lesson and fuck off.

Wow, that's impressive, you've achieved peak dumbass. Confidently wrong and aggressively stupid.

You redefined fascism as 'state + corporations = bad' and then invented 'internationalist fascism' like a special ed genius inventing new flavors of stupidity. This, of course, is too stupid for words.

Words, by the way, have meaning for a purpose. We use them to communicate ideas. Words have definitions, and they're sort of important.

 

[Ichabod Stain]

Wow, that's impressive, you've achieved peak dumbass. Confidently wrong and aggressively stupid.

You redefined fascism as 'state + corporations = bad' and then invented 'internationalist fascism' like a special ed genius inventing new flavors of stupidity. This, of course, is too stupid for words.

Words, by the way, have meaning for a purpose. We use them to communicate ideas. Words have definitions, and they're sort of important.

my defintion is accurate and judgement neutral.

internationalist fascism is the operative modern government paradigm

I know you like it and hate seeing it labelled with something that "sounds bad".

 

[Jake Starkey]

I have no interest in discussing your ideas about healthcare. Not even a little. My gripe? The libtards have no idea what fascism is and whatever you are so as hell doesn't either. Try to take a minute and learn your 'isms' instead of proving you're a moron before you even start.

This is for your benefit as well as any of you libtards that are as clueless about fascism as this crazy bastard.

Here is a simple, short bullet-point list of the core requirements
historians and scholars agree are needed to describe a movement or regime as fascism. It's been so mis-used, they had to name it, 'The fascism minimum.' Look it up dumbass, please.

1 - Extreme/ultranationalism — The nation (or race) is placed above everything else, often with a myth of national rebirth or revival (palingenesis).
2 - Authoritarian/dictatorial leadership — Centralized power under a strong, often charismatic leader (cult of personality) who demands obedience.
3- Rejection of democracy and liberalism — Contempt for parliamentary systems, individual rights, pluralism, and political equality.
4 - Suppression of opposition — Forcible elimination or silencing of dissent, political enemies, or "internal threats."
5 - Glorification of violence and militarism — Use of force, paramilitary groups, and war-like values as positive and regenerative tools.
6 - Subordination of the individual to the state/nation — The collective national interest overrides personal freedoms and rights.

Just to be clear, these all must be present, not just one or two. That's not how it works. Take any of these away and you're talking about something else. For example, you can't remove number 5 and still be a fascist. Not sure I've seen any healthcare armies or violent thugs running around advocating for national Healthcare. Have you?

Bullet points 1 through 6 is Trump through and through.

 

[Nordberg]

I have no interest in discussing your ideas about healthcare. Not even a little. My gripe? The libtards have no idea what fascism is and whatever you are so as hell doesn't either. Try to take a minute and learn your 'isms' instead of proving you're a moron before you even start.

This is for your benefit as well as any of you libtards that are as clueless about fascism as this crazy bastard.

Here is a simple, short bullet-point list of the core requirements
historians and scholars agree are needed to describe a movement or regime as fascism. It's been so mis-used, they had to name it, 'The fascism minimum.' Look it up dumbass, please.

1 - Extreme/ultranationalism — The nation (or race) is placed above everything else, often with a myth of national rebirth or revival (palingenesis).
2 - Authoritarian/dictatorial leadership — Centralized power under a strong, often charismatic leader (cult of personality) who demands obedience.
3- Rejection of democracy and liberalism — Contempt for parliamentary systems, individual rights, pluralism, and political equality.
4 - Suppression of opposition — Forcible elimination or silencing of dissent, political enemies, or "internal threats."
5 - Glorification of violence and militarism — Use of force, paramilitary groups, and war-like values as positive and regenerative tools.
6 - Subordination of the individual to the state/nation — The collective national interest overrides personal freedoms and rights.

Just to be clear, these all must be present, not just one or two. That's not how it works. Take any of these away and you're talking about something else. For example, you can't remove number 5 and still be a fascist. Not sure I've seen any healthcare armies or violent thugs running around advocating for national Healthcare. Have you?

Yep, Trump fits that definition perfectly.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Nordberg is 100% correct.


Nordberg Damn, are you stupid? I have several Canadians in my family. They bitch about their medical system. people bitch, as you do. Ask them if they would rather have our system, and they are shocked by how stupid that is. Hell no.
Not only would universal healthcare slash bankruptcies, but it would give people peace.
If we had universal healthcare, people could shift jobs without having an uncovered period of time. If you wanted to start a business, you would not have to pay employees' healthcare.
How nice would it be not to worry about healthcare expenses? Your whole family is covered from day one.

I've seen "universal healthcare" in America. It's what you get in the military. It sucks harder than a Kirby vacuum cleaner. "Free" doesn't make up for fucked.

Yes, our current system is expensive. That can be fixed without going to having the government take over the system and fuck everyone but the rich and powerful. It may be free, but you are fucked for it too.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

As I see it, an integral part of "fixing" our healthcare system is eliminating insurance companies. Their focus MUST BE on maximizing profits...and they do not actually participate in the "care of health" aspect of the issue.

Doctors looking to maximize their income put a strain on the system also.

A big portion of doctor's costs are rooted in malpractice insurance. We don't need so much to eliminate health insurance companies as we need to kill all the lawyers.

 

[Into the Night]

What's your point? The system I proposed isn't "communist" in the least.

The manager of the investment is government.
It is not individual risk.

I would think the Crash of '29 would've convinced you.

Health care is not health insurance. Health insurance is not health care. It is just insurance, like any other...but today, it is micromanaged by government, and government even owns quite a bit of it.

Hence, communism.

 

[Into the Night]

You're talking to a bot.

YARP

 

[Into the Night]

Insurance companies have no product, They do not provide health care. They go between the company /patient and the hospital, deciding what they will approve. We all know the more they deny care, the more money they make. They are in the business of determining what the patient can get. Why do they have that right? Our system sucks.

To a fair extent this is true. Insurance companies are trying to be doctors, prescribing care, tests, and even attempting to diagnose.

 

[Into the Night]

Just think how many people would be unemployed. What would you suggest we give them as alternate jobs?

Are you justifying bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy?

 

[Into the Night]

I've seen "universal healthcare" in America. It's what you get in the military. It sucks harder than a Kirby vacuum cleaner. "Free" doesn't make up for fucked.

Yes, our current system is expensive. That can be fixed without going to having the government take over the system and fuck everyone but the rich and powerful. It may be free, but you are fucked for it too.

Here you nail it quite well, but you fail to mention an important factor: Lawsuits. You did cover some of it in a later post, but it's not the whole problem. Doctors, hospitals, nurses, and even medical equipment manufactures face such lawsuits.

Medical lawsuits are at an all time high. Someone fails to notice some little detail that could've been caught if only a specialized test was done, someone winds up with an unknown allergy to a medication that causes big problems or even death, someone amputates the wrong leg, etc.

Guess who pays for that? YOU DO, every time you go see a doctor.

Then there is another factor that insurance does nothing about: Getting treatment. With clinics and emergency rooms stuffed with illegal aliens getting free healthcare (that you get to pay through the nose for!), you wait hours and hours just to get someone's attention.

It's at least better than the MONTHS to get treatment you get in 'universal healthcare' in someplace like Canada...and they STILL pay through the nose for it...just in taxes!

 

[Into the Night]

Or, they would become long-term unemployed. There is no guarantee that they could be retrained on some new job or needed to work at hospitals on computers already manned by other workers.

For example, there is a massive shortage of trade and construction workers in the US. These workers we're discussing potentially could be retrained into these trades. I doubt most of them, a good chunk being female, would be willing to move to a trade job requiring manual labor and getting sweaty and dirty versus their previous office work sitting in a chair at a computer screen. I'd toss in many couldn't handle the math and trade knowledge involved leaving them at best as semi-skilled labor working under a journeyman.

Well said! By a journeyman, no less!

 

[Crepitus]

A big portion of doctor's costs are rooted in malpractice insurance. We don't need so much to eliminate health insurance companies as we need to kill all the lawyers.

Especially the ones who work for the health insurance compnaies.