Why Are So Many Christians So Un-Christian?

Anti-Party said:
Thessalonians 3:10

King James Version (KJV)


10 "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat."

It's important to separate the Sloth from the needy and this has been a problem of all parties.
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That was Paul, not Jesus. Jesus' words are very different from Paul's.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
the funny thing is, you said that thinking we wouldn't believe it to be an excellent idea......
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If it's such an excellent idea then how come I have YET to see anyone on the Right side of the aisle who has been calling for drug testing welfare recipients also calling for testing those on Capital Hill who came up with the wonderful idea of testing welfare recipients?
 
annata said:
Jesus understood that religion did not work in the world of politics.
(render unto Caeser what is Caeser's ; render unto God what is God's)

Keep the seperation of church and state the founders wanted, so both religion and politics can work better on their own
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that's not what he was arguing.

It was a clever side step to a question that had no good answers for him. The temple leaders were trying to trick him to get him into trouble.

There were a lot of jewish, anti-roman zealots that were following jesus, they hated rome and they hated being under romes thumb and subservient to them.

The temple leaders approached jesus and asked him if they should pay taxes to rome.

If jesus said yes, then he would have lost the support of a lot of the jewish zealots.
If jesus said no, then he would be openly defying romes authority and rule.

It has a classic rock and a hard place.

So he picked up (or asked to be tossed a coin, i forget) and asked who's face was on the coin... and then said render unto caesars what is caesars, render unto god what is gods

So to the jews he was basically saying "yeah see that coin, it's not even ours, it's from rome, don't worry about that, focus on god"

He wasn't making a grandiose statement of separation of church and state, he was side stepping a trick question that was asked to get him into hot water.
 
Anti-Party said:
To my knowledge of the subject...It was tested before and it cost X amount of dollars and it cost more than it saved. I think in Florida. I was bored enough to educate myself on the topic so here it is.

Marijuana, is the least threatening drug yet stays in the system the longest.

So when hard drugs leave the body fast, Marijuana stays in your body for a very long time. Some sources say up to a month. All sources are different but here is 1 source http://www.passyourdrugtest.com/timetable.htm

So the real question is this. Do we want to spend more money on testing than we do to help the needy financially?

It's a deep topic I hope more people are willing to discuss with BRAINS.
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I worked for a major oil corporation that stopped drug testing potential and current employees, because it never caught anyone. Wasn't worth the money.
 
monty1 said:
You're first of all forgetting that the poor in your country have to be enabled again in order to lift themselves up. The system has clearly been rigged so that they aren't able anymore.

Your income inequality being the second worst in the world while your country has the highest per capita incomes, tells the sad story. The American way has failed the people and even your jesus couldn't fix that without changing laws and stripping control away from the wealthy.
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I don't have a Jesus. I don't believe in Jesus... While I do understand the Bible after years of forced education in it.

The argument here is that Christians would be "more Christian" if they allowed the government to fulfill what is their personal responsibility, it isn't the case. First, their Christ didn't just give people stuff, he used situations to teach, he healed, and then he commanded they sin no more. He didn't spend his life simply running around throwing money and food at people... In order to heal an addiction you first need to know it exists, since we're not miracle workers or God, as the Christians believe Christ is, the best way for us to spot it would be through tests and those asking for help would be the most likely place to find them. Those people who are addicted need a different kind of help than those who need this government "help".

Secondly, the government is not the means a Christian would use to fulfill their responsibilities. If one were to follow your Christ's example the Christian would personally act, not force others to pay for an act of government and think they've "done their part"...
 
Cotard said:
that's not what he was arguing.

It was a clever side step to a question that had no good answers for him. The temple leaders were trying to trick him to get him into trouble.

There were a lot of jewish, anti-roman zealots that were following jesus, they hated rome and they hated being under romes thumb and subservient to them.

The temple leaders approached jesus and asked him if they should pay taxes to rome.

If jesus said yes, then he would have lost the support of a lot of the jewish zealots.
If jesus said no, then he would be openly defying romes authority and rule.

It has a classic rock and a hard place.

So he picked up (or asked to be tossed a coin, i forget) and asked who's face was on the coin... and then said render unto caesars what is caesars, render unto god what is gods

So to the jews he was basically saying "yeah see that coin, it's not even ours, it's from rome, don't worry about that, focus on god"

He wasn't making a grandiose statement of separation of church and state, he was side stepping a trick question that was asked to get him into hot water.
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thanks for the background, was musing about the OP - posting about the seperation. The whole life of Jesus is a parable, his lif is an example of how to live a noble path , as Budhists. call it.

I was on a board where some very smart people claimed "Jesus was a Buddhist Monk" - thereis a place in India where he is supposedly buried.

I think the crucifixion was of his brother Joseph, or maybe it was because thebody was claimed th same day, Jesus survived it.

dunno. people much more studious then ourselves have gone thru this carefully - for me I know my conscience, sems to be the best way to travel.

I post this for those interested:

 
The accounts commonly known about both Jesus and Buddha are numerous, as indicated below.

* Born as an incarnate god.
* Born from a virgin mother.
* Birth claimed as a divine event and prophesied as the same.
* Birth attended by singing angels.
* Birth attended by wise men bearing gifts.
* Prodigious childhood.
* As a child astounded teachers with knowledge.
* Fasted in the wilderness for forty days.
* Tempted while alone by the devil.
* Resisted the devil successfully.
* After the devil left, supernatural events occurred.
* Were vegetarians (fish excepted).
* Began ministry at thirty years of age.
* Attract large following mostly from lower classes.
* Attracted disciples who traveled with him.
* Attracted one disciple who was treacherous.
* Changed disciples' names.
* Encouraged celibacy for their disciples.
* Consecrated in a holy river.
* Itinerant ministry instead of at a fixed place.
* Performed miracles such as curing blindness.
* Renounced worldly riches and required the same of their disciples.
* Ministered to outcasts.
* Advocated universal love and peace.
* Taught mostly through use of parables.
* Triumphal entries (in Jerusalem and Rajagripa).
* Gave major sermon from a mound.
* Disregarded by the dominant religious elite (Pharisees and Brahmans).
* Just before death dispatched disciples to preach in other areas.
* Death accompanied by supernatural event.

Both Jesus and Buddha issued moral commandments that prohibited killing, stealing, adultery, false witness, and coveting. Both emphasized the same moral themes: advocate peace, not war; avoid the corruption of wealth; help the poor; abolish slavery and caste systems; abandon self and selfishness; and love your neighbor, even your enemy. Many statements by Jesus resembled those by Buddha, as presented below.

JESUS: "A foolish man, which built his house on sand."
BUDDHA: "Perishable is a city built on sand." (30)
JESUS: "Therefore confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed."
BUDDHA: "Confess before the world the sins you have committed." (31)
JESUS: "In him we have redemption through his blood, the foregiveness of sins."
BUDDHA: "Let all sins that were committed in this world fall on me, that the world may be delivered." (32)
JESUS: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
BUDDHA: "Consider others as yourself." (33)
JESUS: "If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also."
BUDDHA: "If anyone should give you a blow with his hand, with a stick, or with a knife, you should abandon all desires and utter no evil words." (34)
JESUS: "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you."
BUDDHA: "Hatreds do not cease in this world by hating, but by love: this is an eternal truth. Overcome anger by love, overcome evil by good." (35)
JESUS: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."
BUDDHA: "Let your thoughts of boundless love pervade the whole world." (36)
JESUS: "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to cast a stone at her."
BUDDHA: "Do not look at the faults of others or what others have done or not done; observe what you yourself have done and have not done." (37)
JESUS: "You father in heaven makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous."
BUDDHA: "The light of the sun and the moon illuminates the whole world, both him who does well and him who does ill, both him who stands high and him who stands low." (38)
JESUS: "If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."
BUDDHA: "The avaricious do not go to heaven, the foolish do not extol charity. The wise one, however, rejoicing in charity, becomes thereby happy in the beyond." (39)
http://www.thezensite.com/non_Zen/Was_Jesus_Buddhist.html

Indeed, but for inevitable differences in translations, what Jesus said may have been identical with what he read and heard of Buddha and Veda texts.
The languages of Pali (which Buddha spoke) or Sanskrit (found in most Buddhist documents) had to be translated first into Greek or Coptic, then into Jesus' native Hebrew or Aramaic.
More translation is involved with the writing and rewriting of texts after Jesus, including the final English translation in the King James version of the Bible. Considering these discrepancies in translation, many of Jesus' statements could have been identical with their Buddhist sources.
The accounts commonly known about both Jesus and Buddha are numerous, as indicated
 
ZappasGuitar said:
If it's such an excellent idea then how come I have YET to see anyone on the Right side of the aisle who has been calling for drug testing welfare recipients also calling for testing those on Capital Hill who came up with the wonderful idea of testing welfare recipients?
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probably because you'd call them racists engaged in a war on women trying to keep people from voting......
 
annata said:
The accounts commonly known about both Jesus and Buddha are numerous, as indicated below.

* Born as an incarnate god.
* Born from a virgin mother.
* Birth claimed as a divine event and prophesied as the same.
* Birth attended by singing angels.
* Birth attended by wise men bearing gifts.
* Prodigious childhood.
* As a child astounded teachers with knowledge.
* Fasted in the wilderness for forty days.
* Tempted while alone by the devil.
* Resisted the devil successfully.
* After the devil left, supernatural events occurred.
* Were vegetarians (fish excepted).
* Began ministry at thirty years of age.
* Attract large following mostly from lower classes.
* Attracted disciples who traveled with him.
* Attracted one disciple who was treacherous.
* Changed disciples' names.
* Encouraged celibacy for their disciples.
* Consecrated in a holy river.
* Itinerant ministry instead of at a fixed place.
* Performed miracles such as curing blindness.
* Renounced worldly riches and required the same of their disciples.
* Ministered to outcasts.
* Advocated universal love and peace.
* Taught mostly through use of parables.
* Triumphal entries (in Jerusalem and Rajagripa).
* Gave major sermon from a mound.
* Disregarded by the dominant religious elite (Pharisees and Brahmans).
* Just before death dispatched disciples to preach in other areas.
* Death accompanied by supernatural event.

Both Jesus and Buddha issued moral commandments that prohibited killing, stealing, adultery, false witness, and coveting. Both emphasized the same moral themes: advocate peace, not war; avoid the corruption of wealth; help the poor; abolish slavery and caste systems; abandon self and selfishness; and love your neighbor, even your enemy. Many statements by Jesus resembled those by Buddha, as presented below.

JESUS: "A foolish man, which built his house on sand."
BUDDHA: "Perishable is a city built on sand." (30)
JESUS: "Therefore confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed."
BUDDHA: "Confess before the world the sins you have committed." (31)
JESUS: "In him we have redemption through his blood, the foregiveness of sins."
BUDDHA: "Let all sins that were committed in this world fall on me, that the world may be delivered." (32)
JESUS: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
BUDDHA: "Consider others as yourself." (33)
JESUS: "If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also."
BUDDHA: "If anyone should give you a blow with his hand, with a stick, or with a knife, you should abandon all desires and utter no evil words." (34)
JESUS: "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you."
BUDDHA: "Hatreds do not cease in this world by hating, but by love: this is an eternal truth. Overcome anger by love, overcome evil by good." (35)
JESUS: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."
BUDDHA: "Let your thoughts of boundless love pervade the whole world." (36)
JESUS: "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to cast a stone at her."
BUDDHA: "Do not look at the faults of others or what others have done or not done; observe what you yourself have done and have not done." (37)
JESUS: "You father in heaven makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous."
BUDDHA: "The light of the sun and the moon illuminates the whole world, both him who does well and him who does ill, both him who stands high and him who stands low." (38)
JESUS: "If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."
BUDDHA: "The avaricious do not go to heaven, the foolish do not extol charity. The wise one, however, rejoicing in charity, becomes thereby happy in the beyond." (39)
http://www.thezensite.com/non_Zen/Was_Jesus_Buddhist.html

Indeed, but for inevitable differences in translations, what Jesus said may have been identical with what he read and heard of Buddha and Veda texts.
The languages of Pali (which Buddha spoke) or Sanskrit (found in most Buddhist documents) had to be translated first into Greek or Coptic, then into Jesus' native Hebrew or Aramaic.
More translation is involved with the writing and rewriting of texts after Jesus, including the final English translation in the King James version of the Bible. Considering these discrepancies in translation, many of Jesus' statements could have been identical with their Buddhist sources.
The accounts commonly known about both Jesus and Buddha are numerous, as indicated
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lol.....
 
Damocles said:
Again, Christians wouldn't assume that their duty to others is assuaged by having the government do it. The main assumption is that the government is the means by which Christians should and can express their religion. Christ taught about your personal responsibility, not what responsibility you can force onto others. This argument, specifically, from a leftist is both hypocritical and idiotic.

The Bible has many examples of what Christ would have done for these people... This Christ of yours would have healed them of their addiction and told them to sin no more.
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woulda coulda ?


how about what we KNOW Christ did about such things?

Christ whipped the money changers for exploiting the poor.

He was pretty upset for a guy who preached peace.

so much so that he commited a violent act against these monsters.


Now do you think Christ would have whipped the money changers IF they were working with the local government to feed and house the poor?


We all know the answer and your thin rack of distraction you placed in front of the REAL morals of Jesus just fell to the ground
 
Damocles said:
I don't believe that Queen Maya was a virgin.
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I wondered about this one:
Born as an incarnate god.
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to my knowledge this is wrong, the soothesayer said Gautama was to be a leader. or a great man (something like that)
But Buddha never claimed , or was born divine.

Mara knew of his birth, and said the human would ignore him (as they always do) the perfected being - but not god.

significance of all this birth..http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddha/a/birthofbuddha.htm
 
annata said:
I wondered about this one:
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you would be wise to wonder about all of them.....

here's one article that mentions this list and its original source....
Other Parallels
While surfing the web, I came across two lists of parallels between Jesus and Buddha in a discussion forum, posted by the same individual. The first list has 27 parallels, and the second list has 13 parallels. These can be found at http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1652/BuddhaChrist.html.
On an Islamic sponsored website (www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/ http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/ bible_buddhism.htm) the first list mentioned above was given in a streamlined fashion, with 22 parallels. In these parallels, scripture references from the Bible are given for Jesus, but for Buddha, with theexception of one Buddhist scripture reference, these were referenced by
giving the name of a scholar. This has made it difficult to track down the scripture locations for these items about Buddha, especially since the Pali canon alone (not taking into account all of the scriptures of other schools) is approximately 15 times the size of the Bible (http://www.akshin.net/literature/budlitsourcespali.htm). Fortunately though, I did find a good book which did this work for me. This is the third book which I mentioned: “The Life of Buddha as Legend and History” by Edward J. Thomas. In this book there are 16 parallels which Edwards considers noteworthy (these arebased on van den Bergh's work).

Incidentally, the one Buddhist scripture mentioned in the list of 40 parallels, comes from the 11th century AD! That reference was from the Kathasaritsagara: “Although its dates have not been conclusively established, the Kathasaritsagara is said to have been compiled by a
Kashmiri Saivite Brahmin called Somadeva in AD 1070. Legend has it that Somadeva composed the Kathasaritsagara for queen Suryavati, wife of King Anantadeva who ruled Kashmir in the eleventh century.” (amazon.com)

Of the 40 parallels mentioned above, many can be dismissed just by making the same comparisons with people in general or religious leaders in particular. Items such as *they both fasted for a long time, *they were about the same age when they began public ministry (Jesus 30; Buddha 35- though Buddha's age is debatable here), *the multitudes required a sign from
both, *both taught compassion, and *both were of royal descent (in the case of Buddha this is debatable), could be said of many people, especially a religious leader. Thomas (1927) summarizes the work of several scholars in this area of study:
Seydel's fifty instances are reduced by van den Bergh to nine. In proportion to the investigator's direct knowledge of the Buddhist sources the number seems to decrease. E. W. Hopkins discusses five 'cogent parallels', but does not consider any of them very probable. Garbe assumes direct borrowing in four cases, Simeon, the Temptation, Peter walking on the sea, and the Miracle of the loaves and fishes. Charpentier considers Simeon the only unobjectionable example. Other scholars reject all connexion. In
any case the chief events of the life- birth, renunciation, enlightenment, and the death, the very items which might give strength to the comparison- disappear from the question. (247-248)

Rather than going through all of these, I'll just address some of the key ones. In the case of Simeon seeing Jesus at the temple, and Asita going to see the infant Gautama, regarding the Buddhist scripture (Nalaka-sutta of the Sutta-nipata), Thomas says, “It is clearly late, as is shown by the reference to the thirty-two marks; and as it is in general agreement with the Sanskrit accounts, there is nothing to prove that it is as early as the
pre-Christian era” (39). The thirty-two marks refer to physical characteristics used to identify a potential Buddha. This is thought to be a later Mahayana development (K.R. Norman, 1983, Pali Literature: including the canonical literature in Prakrit and Sanskrit of all the Hinayana schools of Buddhism, 42). James Kennedy (1917), in his article “The Gospels of the Infancy, the Lalita Vistara and the Vishnu Purana”, addresses the walking on water parallel:
The story occurs in the introduction to Jataka No. 190.in this case all we know is that the story of the monk, and the Jataka which follows it, were considered old enough to be included among 546 others, when the Jataka book was compiled in the fifth or sixth century A.D. (528)
Regarding the multiplying of food parallel, Kennedy writes, “Like the story of the monk we have just discussed, it occurs in the introduction to a Jataka [No. 78], and is subject to the same comment” (529).
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http://www.letusreason.org/buddh6.htm
 
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