Why Don't We Just End The Drug War? - Remove The Basis For Violence And Immigration.
- Thread starter PoliTalker
- Start date
There is certainly a violent aspect to the drug trade. So much so that I would support legalizing marijuana and easing off prosecution of those with small amounts of controlled substances. Selling cocaine over the counter though? No.
For one thing, whatever remains illegal will attract those willing to supply it. So I deem it to be a false choice between safety and endangerment. I know you’ll disagree with me but it is the case. We have the 1920’s prohibition example as proof. Whatever is illegal and is willing to be supplied will attract (for want of a better term) venture capitalists to exploit that market. Be it illegal cable hook ups, drugs, moonshine, etc… And by virtue of it being illegal, the police will always be in peril if they set out to enforce the law.
Secondly, the increase in ER visits, the increase in overdoses, is taxing an already fragile healthcare system. Legalizing Product Group 2 and beyond will simply increase the numbers of people self-presenting to the ER.
And lastly, while the Colorado experiment has hit some speed bumps, I am for legalizing generic pot. The system (health care) is in peril because of it but we need to expand access to healthcare anyway. Asking for the trouble of coke addicts, heroin addicts, etc… is probably not a great idea.
It would be interesting to see the results if we could try it in a few states and see where we are in 5 years or so.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello JPF,
OK, I can respect that view. It makes sense. It's logical. It's compassionate.
The problem is the consequences that go along with it.
Did you happen to check out that link I posted about LEAP?
That's the National Organization called: Law Enforcement Action Partnership.
There, you will find the considered arguments of Police Officers who think the War on Drugs needs to be ended.
OK, I can respect that view. It makes sense. It's logical. It's compassionate.
The problem is the consequences that go along with it.
Did you happen to check out that link I posted about LEAP?
That's the National Organization called: Law Enforcement Action Partnership.
There, you will find the considered arguments of Police Officers who think the War on Drugs needs to be ended.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Retired Police Captain Christ: We are spending $70 Billion a year trying to enforce the drug war. You could do a lot of rehab for that.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Peter Christ makes a lot of good points. One was the point he made where he asks “What other public health issue do you think we should be using the legal system to solve?” He also said that we have reduced adult tobacco use by 50% (I question the figure but I know it is more true than false) without throwing one smoker in jail, banning one cigarette or wiping out one tobacco field.
I do think the WWII analogy was weak. “Winning” isn’t total annihilation and couching a victory in those terms is dishonest. Defeating an army is pretty cut and dried; the leadership stops supporting the troops in the field and they work out a surrender to save their own skin. I would say that “winning” the drug war is definitely a myth but there is no central control involved in drug users so I reject the analogy.
Again, what I think would be a smart thing to do is set up test areas. Maybe take a group of states and see what happens in those states by legalizing everything from cocaine to heroin to pot to valium. I think what you’ll see is 1). that whatever is legalized will be trumped by whatever is more potent on the black market and 2). more lives completely destroyed—more quickly—by the unrestricted use of drugs your body simply cannot handle.
Another great point Mr. Christ made was the fact that thousands of lives are messed up forever by being persecuted for very minor drug offenses.
He makes sense.
Another guy who makes sense is an author named Michale Pollan and his book about psychedelics. I heard him on NPR’s Fresh Air once. He was speaking about a therapeutic dosage of psychedelic drugs. While I’m a bit apprehensive to embrace such a thing (as I am with freestyle legalization), I’m willing to give it a long look.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello JPF,
I'm glad you've joined the discussion. You do a good job of presenting your view without being disrespectful (as is all too common around here.) Your posts are providing a refreshing input to JPP.
I hope you like it and stick around. This is a rough place. People are not nice. You will be very nastily attacked. However you choose to deal with trolls is up to you, of course.
I put up with them for over a decade and then simply wondered what it would be like with all of them filtered OUT. After 3 weeks of that I was sold. Never went back. To me, having a very large Ignore List is logical. That eliminates all the posts of anyone who has ever attacked me, so what is left are the more intellectual posts. Since there is so much activity at this site, I don't worry about what I might be missing. I get all the political discussion I desire, even with so many on Ignore. And the quality of posts I am looking at is far superior. There is simply no way I would even consider ever changing my personal approach here. It works SO well!
Not familiar with Pollan's work. But I have been a fan of LEAP ever since I heard one of their speakers on an NPR station. Makes total sense to me, so I am all in for it.
I don't see an issue with having concern for a market that springs up to supply what is still illegal because total legalization is total legalization. Even fentanyl. I am not concerned that people would get it and kill themselves with OD. That is already occurring as we fight the Failed Drug War. So what is different there? I hope you don't think keeping drugs illegal prevents anybody who wants them from getting them. Hasn't worked yet. I liked the part where Capt Christ mentioned that in all the federal and state well-guarded prisons, not a single one is drug-free. If we can't keep it out of there how can we have any hope of keeping it off the streets?
Most people simply don't want to destroy their lives with drugs. If we made all these dangerous drugs legal, most people are smart enough not to go and get them and give up their wonderful lives for a quick high. Most people are smarter than that. $70 Billion could buy a lot of PR messaging to let people know how stupid it is to turn to drugs.
We have to choose between two ways of making drugs widely available. The current way, or what LEAP is proposing. We have to face facts. We are NOT keeping drugs off the streets. We can't do that. We have to accept that. If we keep drugs illegal we make them widely available with no regulation or quality control. If we choose to make drugs widely available LEGALLY, then we get to control the quality, and regulate minimum age requirements. Just like we do for alcohol and tobacco.
I know it doesn't seem right. We have been so accustomed to fighting against this. But the logic is clear. What we are doing is not working, and it is having terrible consequences.
By keeping drugs illegal, we give power to the gangs. Illegal drugs are what makes gangs powerful.
Earlier, I asked how many police deaths is a fair cost of having drugs illegal.
And it is true. That is one of the costs. But that's not the only cost.
Another price of having illegal drugs is having powerful gangs.
Gangs that are so powerful they are multi-national. They operate in the USA and in Central America, and they are ruthless. The Banana Republics don't have the resources to wage an effective fight. The people down there are on their own. The gangs just take over. The people have no choice. Either join up or face death, perhaps one family member at a time. Ruthless.
That's one of the costs of our drug war.
All their profits, the reason they do those horrible things, comes from the US illegal drug market.
And we have the power to make that go away in an instant.
I am all for some test cases. I am ready for a test period. Let's try it for ten years and compare statistics before after. I bet with totally legal drugs, we spend less, have fewer deaths, and fewer immigrants from Central America. And I bet the GDP does better with more people contributing to the economy instead of rotting in prison and costing us to lock them up.
I'm glad you've joined the discussion. You do a good job of presenting your view without being disrespectful (as is all too common around here.) Your posts are providing a refreshing input to JPP.
I hope you like it and stick around. This is a rough place. People are not nice. You will be very nastily attacked. However you choose to deal with trolls is up to you, of course.
I put up with them for over a decade and then simply wondered what it would be like with all of them filtered OUT. After 3 weeks of that I was sold. Never went back. To me, having a very large Ignore List is logical. That eliminates all the posts of anyone who has ever attacked me, so what is left are the more intellectual posts. Since there is so much activity at this site, I don't worry about what I might be missing. I get all the political discussion I desire, even with so many on Ignore. And the quality of posts I am looking at is far superior. There is simply no way I would even consider ever changing my personal approach here. It works SO well!
Not familiar with Pollan's work. But I have been a fan of LEAP ever since I heard one of their speakers on an NPR station. Makes total sense to me, so I am all in for it.
I don't see an issue with having concern for a market that springs up to supply what is still illegal because total legalization is total legalization. Even fentanyl. I am not concerned that people would get it and kill themselves with OD. That is already occurring as we fight the Failed Drug War. So what is different there? I hope you don't think keeping drugs illegal prevents anybody who wants them from getting them. Hasn't worked yet. I liked the part where Capt Christ mentioned that in all the federal and state well-guarded prisons, not a single one is drug-free. If we can't keep it out of there how can we have any hope of keeping it off the streets?
Most people simply don't want to destroy their lives with drugs. If we made all these dangerous drugs legal, most people are smart enough not to go and get them and give up their wonderful lives for a quick high. Most people are smarter than that. $70 Billion could buy a lot of PR messaging to let people know how stupid it is to turn to drugs.
We have to choose between two ways of making drugs widely available. The current way, or what LEAP is proposing. We have to face facts. We are NOT keeping drugs off the streets. We can't do that. We have to accept that. If we keep drugs illegal we make them widely available with no regulation or quality control. If we choose to make drugs widely available LEGALLY, then we get to control the quality, and regulate minimum age requirements. Just like we do for alcohol and tobacco.
I know it doesn't seem right. We have been so accustomed to fighting against this. But the logic is clear. What we are doing is not working, and it is having terrible consequences.
By keeping drugs illegal, we give power to the gangs. Illegal drugs are what makes gangs powerful.
Earlier, I asked how many police deaths is a fair cost of having drugs illegal.
And it is true. That is one of the costs. But that's not the only cost.
Another price of having illegal drugs is having powerful gangs.
Gangs that are so powerful they are multi-national. They operate in the USA and in Central America, and they are ruthless. The Banana Republics don't have the resources to wage an effective fight. The people down there are on their own. The gangs just take over. The people have no choice. Either join up or face death, perhaps one family member at a time. Ruthless.
That's one of the costs of our drug war.
All their profits, the reason they do those horrible things, comes from the US illegal drug market.
And we have the power to make that go away in an instant.
I am all for some test cases. I am ready for a test period. Let's try it for ten years and compare statistics before after. I bet with totally legal drugs, we spend less, have fewer deaths, and fewer immigrants from Central America. And I bet the GDP does better with more people contributing to the economy instead of rotting in prison and costing us to lock them up.
Portugal has decriminalized drugs and has made great strides in solving their problems. They got serious about drug recovery when it spread to the middle class and wealthier people. Here is a long article on it. The sooner we grow up and do the humane and right thing, the better off we will be. https://www.theguardian.com/news/20...licy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello Nordberg,
Great article, Nordberg:
"Portugal’s policy rests on three pillars: one, that there’s no such thing as a soft or hard drug, only healthy and unhealthy relationships with drugs; two, that an individual’s unhealthy relationship with drugs often conceals frayed relationships with loved ones, with the world around them, and with themselves; and three, that the eradication of all drugs is an impossible goal."
Makes so much sense. I believe it is inevitable that we in the USA will do the same thing. The only unknown is how long it will take the rest of the nation to realize it.
"The two young colleagues joined forces to open southern Portugal’s first CAT in 1988. (These kinds of centres have used different names and acronyms over the years, but are still commonly referred to as Centros de Atendimento a Toxicodependentes, or CATs.)"
"When Pereira first opened the CAT in Olhão, he faced vociferous opposition from residents; they worried that with more drogados would come more crime. But the opposite happened. Months later, one neighbour came to ask Pereira’s forgiveness. She hadn’t realised it at the time, but there had been three drug dealers on her street; when their local clientele stopped buying, they packed up and left.
The CAT building itself is a drab, brown two-storey block, with offices upstairs and an open waiting area, bathrooms, storage and clinics down below. The doors open at 8.30am, seven days a week, 365 days a year. Patients wander in throughout the day for appointments, to chat, to kill time, to wash, or to pick up their weekly supply of methadone doses. They tried to close the CAT for Christmas Day one year, but patients asked that it stay open. For some, estranged from loved ones and adrift from any version of home, this is the closest thing they’ve got to community and normality.
“It’s not just about administering methadone,” Pereira told me. “You have to maintain a relationship.”"
Great article, Nordberg:
"Portugal’s policy rests on three pillars: one, that there’s no such thing as a soft or hard drug, only healthy and unhealthy relationships with drugs; two, that an individual’s unhealthy relationship with drugs often conceals frayed relationships with loved ones, with the world around them, and with themselves; and three, that the eradication of all drugs is an impossible goal."
Makes so much sense. I believe it is inevitable that we in the USA will do the same thing. The only unknown is how long it will take the rest of the nation to realize it.
"The two young colleagues joined forces to open southern Portugal’s first CAT in 1988. (These kinds of centres have used different names and acronyms over the years, but are still commonly referred to as Centros de Atendimento a Toxicodependentes, or CATs.)"
"When Pereira first opened the CAT in Olhão, he faced vociferous opposition from residents; they worried that with more drogados would come more crime. But the opposite happened. Months later, one neighbour came to ask Pereira’s forgiveness. She hadn’t realised it at the time, but there had been three drug dealers on her street; when their local clientele stopped buying, they packed up and left.
The CAT building itself is a drab, brown two-storey block, with offices upstairs and an open waiting area, bathrooms, storage and clinics down below. The doors open at 8.30am, seven days a week, 365 days a year. Patients wander in throughout the day for appointments, to chat, to kill time, to wash, or to pick up their weekly supply of methadone doses. They tried to close the CAT for Christmas Day one year, but patients asked that it stay open. For some, estranged from loved ones and adrift from any version of home, this is the closest thing they’ve got to community and normality.
“It’s not just about administering methadone,” Pereira told me. “You have to maintain a relationship.”"