Wow! Did Pres. Bush not care an inch about personal freedom..

[Minister of Truth]

I remember watching a TV show the other day about a standoff incident with a right wing militia somewhere that had procured a shoulder-mounted rocket launcher and automatic weapons. If you ask me, they should have been put away and tried as terrorists. Had they been arrested after 2001, that might have happened but probably nto considering who was in charge (gun nuts love other gun nuts, as long as they're white).

My God you lefties have a hard-on for Hitler.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Whether or not any American was persecuted under this opinion is immaterial. What is material to the discussion is the idea that any American citizen can be accused of being a terrorist at any time and have his or her constitutional rights stripped away immediately.

It is also not important that President Bush never used such a thing against American citizens. What is important is that the current President or a future President may some day use it against us.

None of us are safe from an oppressive government if we allow these kinds of things to go unchecked. Anyone who is pro-life can suddenly be declared a terrorist at the drop of a hat today. Under another President, it might be people who are pro-choice. Today a Muslim might find himself locked away in prison for no other reason than that he is a Muslim. Tomorrow it might be Christians or Jews, maybe gays. Maybe it will be members of the KKK... okay, there might just be some good out of this after all. Or maybe it will be members of the Church of God or the Lutheran Church... Atheists?

None of us are safe. How many of our freedoms are in jeopardy here? The right to free speech? Would you be willing to speak out against the sacred cow of the President knowing that he has the power to haul your ass off tomorrow and declare you a terrorist?

That is not the America we all grew up in nor do I believe it is the America we want to live in.

Immie

Immie, I hate to say this, but you are naive as hell if you think the FBI hasn't always had the authority to send the men in dark sunglasses to your house and take you into custody. If the US Government sees you as a potential threat to national security, you can bet your sweet ass, they will come get you. Now, I don't know when this all started, but I know it's been around since the days of FDR and WWII, perhaps longer. During the Civil War, Abe Lincoln suspended Habius Corpus! (You do know what that means, right?)

So the silly notion that our laws somehow "protect" us from the government, are laughable. Now, you go on to spout some bullshit about "oppressive government" and I challenge you to show me one American citizen who has been "oppressed" by Bush policies! It's overblown hyper-reactive bullshit, and I am calling you on it!

Let's have an analogy here, for old times sake... Say you are the manager/owner of a nice upscale condo in a well-to-do area... your tenants are very wealthy and pay you a nice sum of money to provide them a well-secured living environment. You get a phone call one day, your security gates have been breached by several thugs, they've already broken into one condo, but your security guys have no idea where they are now. You do know they are inside the premises. What is your course of action? Go ahead, Mr. Genius... tell me what the hell you would do under those circumstances? Your tenants have rights to privacy, you can't go breaking into their condo's looking for these guys without their permission. So, what can you do???

For the sake of this analogy, we have to assume there is no police to call, it's entirely up to you to rid the condo of the thugs and restore peaceful security to your tenants as soon as possible. Now let's add another tid bit... you learn that the thugs have master keys, and can access any condo at will. So, do you wait until they strike again, and hope you catch them in the act? Or would it perhaps be reasonable to let your tenants know the problem, and ask for their cooperation in helping apprehend the thugs? Wouldn't it be for the "greater good" if you had to go into someone's condo to find the thugs?

Immie, it is much the same with regard to the terrorists, they are here, they are living among us, and they are using our freedoms and liberties to enable more attacks like 9/11. Now we can stick a cob up our ass and act like it's outrageous that government is allowed to violate our rights, but without those specific measures, there is really no practical solution to the problem. We simply can't apprehend thugs who don't play by the book, by playing by the book... and it doesn't matter how outraged you are about that.

 

[Immanuel]

Immie, I hate to say this, but you are naive as hell if you think the FBI hasn't always had the authority to send the men in dark sunglasses to your house and take you into custody. If the US Government sees you as a potential threat to national security, you can bet your sweet ass, they will come get you. Now, I don't know when this all started, but I know it's been around since the days of FDR and WWII, perhaps longer. During the Civil War, Abe Lincoln suspended Habius Corpus! (You do know what that means, right?)

So the silly notion that our laws somehow "protect" us from the government, are laughable. Now, you go on to spout some bullshit about "oppressive government" and I challenge you to show me one American citizen who has been "oppressed" by Bush policies! It's overblown hyper-reactive bullshit, and I am calling you on it!

Let's have an analogy here, for old times sake... Say you are the manager/owner of a nice upscale condo in a well-to-do area... your tenants are very wealthy and pay you a nice sum of money to provide them a well-secured living environment. You get a phone call one day, your security gates have been breached by several thugs, they've already broken into one condo, but your security guys have no idea where they are now. You do know they are inside the premises. What is your course of action? Go ahead, Mr. Genius... tell me what the hell you would do under those circumstances? Your tenants have rights to privacy, you can't go breaking into their condo's looking for these guys without their permission. So, what can you do???

For the sake of this analogy, we have to assume there is no police to call, it's entirely up to you to rid the condo of the thugs and restore peaceful security to your tenants as soon as possible. Now let's add another tid bit... you learn that the thugs have master keys, and can access any condo at will. So, do you wait until they strike again, and hope you catch them in the act? Or would it perhaps be reasonable to let your tenants know the problem, and ask for their cooperation in helping apprehend the thugs? Wouldn't it be for the "greater good" if you had to go into someone's condo to find the thugs?

Immie, it is much the same with regard to the terrorists, they are here, they are living among us, and they are using our freedoms and liberties to enable more attacks like 9/11. Now we can stick a cob up our ass and act like it's outrageous that government is allowed to violate our rights, but without those specific measures, there is really no practical solution to the problem. We simply can't apprehend thugs who don't play by the book, by playing by the book... and it doesn't matter how outraged you are about that.

Dixie,

All that is well and good and despite your accusation that I am naive, that is not the case. I realize the government can do as you suggest. Who among us can stop them?

Does that mean we should simply toss our protections in the nearest garbage can and LET the government get away with it? I honestly do not beleive it does mean that. When or if the government does abuse its power, we should kick its ass all the way to China and back. It is the reason we have those constitutional protections. It is why we are guaranteed legal council if we are accused of a crime.

Under your scenario, we should all just accept the fact that the government can and will begin arresting all of us the moment we get out of line without any hope of defending ourselves. Under your scenario, we should take the Constitution, find the nearest shredder and shred it.

Your analogy doesn't fit the situation. In the analogy, I would be entering each condo with the permission of tenants or at least with the intention of protecting them. In the case we are discussing, you are entering the condo with the express intention of doing harm to the tenant, not the thugs. There is a slight difference in the intentions here.

Immie

 

[Socrtease]

Whether or not any American was persecuted under this opinion is immaterial. What is material to the discussion is the idea that any American citizen can be accused of being a terrorist at any time and have his or her constitutional rights stripped away immediately.

It is also not important that President Bush never used such a thing against American citizens. What is important is that the current President or a future President may some day use it against us.

None of us are safe from an oppressive government if we allow these kinds of things to go unchecked. Anyone who is pro-life can suddenly be declared a terrorist at the drop of a hat today. Under another President, it might be people who are pro-choice. Today a Muslim might find himself locked away in prison for no other reason than that he is a Muslim. Tomorrow it might be Christians or Jews, maybe gays. Maybe it will be members of the KKK... okay, there might just be some good out of this after all. Or maybe it will be members of the Church of God or the Lutheran Church... Atheists?

None of us are safe. How many of our freedoms are in jeopardy here? The right to free speech? Would you be willing to speak out against the sacred cow of the President knowing that he has the power to haul your ass off tomorrow and declare you a terrorist?

That is not the America we all grew up in nor do I believe it is the America we want to live in.

Immie

Even more, it is not the america I raised my right hand and swore to protect and defend when I took my oath in the Army, nor when I was sworn in as a lawyer.