Atheist conclusions about the historicity of the resurrection

[Tobytone]

Atheist New Testament scholar Gerd Lüdemann evaluated every reference to Jesus' resurrection in the New Testament, as well as apocryphal literature. Through this approach, he offers a reconstruction of the probable course of events as well as the circumstances surrounding Jesus' death on the cross, the burial of his body, his reported resurrection on the third day, and subsequent appearances to various disciples.

The Christian faith Luedemann concludes ultimately stems from hallucinations of Peter and the other disciples, both men and women.

From a modern perspective this leads to the inescapable conclusion that the primary witnesses to Jesus' resurrection were victims of self-deception.

In conclusion, he asks whether in light of the nonhistoricity of Jesus' resurrection, thinking people today can legitimately and in good conscience still call themselves Christians.



https://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Christ-Historical-Inquiry/dp/1591022452
https://www.fortresspress.com/store/product/9780800627928/The-Resurrection-of-Jesus

Oh, bless your heart, Gerd Lüdemann, for dusting off your atheist decoder ring and inventing “historicalicity” to dunk on Jesus’ resurrection like it’s a middle school book report. This is peak comedy. You sifted through every New Testament scrap and apocryphal fanfic to declare it all a big hallucination party starring Peter and pals. Self-deception, you say? Bold move from a guy who thinks “modern perspective” means swapping faith for smug skepticism.

So the disciples, men and women alike, just imagined a risen Christ because, what, bad fish at the Last Supper? Hilarious. And that kicker, asking if “thinking people” can still be Christians? Wow, your ivory tower’s so shaky it’s a miracle it hasn’t collapsed under the weight of your own pompous bullshit. Keep polishing that PhD in eye-rolling. It suits you.

 

[Tobytone]

They were recording oral histories from witnesses, so they wouldn't be lost via persecutions and deaths. and could be spread around the Empire, pretty basic stuff throughout Jewish history. Much of their theology was historically transmitted, same with a lot of other cultures around the world. Apparently some think that just because there was no Kinko's Copies and Microsoft Word software the sources are not valid, but mainly we know they make such claims because they want to rewrite it all to suit themselves and they have make up a fake history to do so, after these stupid efforts to discredit the real history.

Well said! I would argue because there was no Kinko's or Microsoft, people were far more reliable witnesses and much more intelligent then the average bonehead on a NYC street today.

 

[EdwinA]

Well said! I would argue because there was no Kinko's or Microsoft, people were far more reliable witnesses and much more intelligent then the average bonehead on a NYC street today.

Absolutely. These people were dedicated not some con job; con artists would never have gone to such trouble and risked death over this stuff; there was no money in it for them, just a good chance of arrest and torture and gruesome deaths. These scrolls were pretty elaborate, and followed the Jewish literary styles, and as Joachim Jeremia has definitely proven, the writings are very contemporary with Jewish society and culture of the times, no anachronisms as would be the case if as some idiots claim 'it was all made up by Constantine n stuff' some300 years later. Even the writings are laid out in a literary structure that clearly indicates they come from oral histories. Some of them quite complex, again evidence they aren't just made up by con artists, who wouldn't have bothered with such detail.

Example, from the Pentateuch:

Genesis – BIBLICAL CHIASM EXCHANGE

www.chiasmusxchange.com

Genesis 22 as “Ring composition”

In her book “Thinking in Circles” (Yale University Press, 2007, pg 21) the late Mary Douglas proposed that Genesis 22 is a ring composition, a form of chiasmus but with a subtle differ…

www.chiasmusxchange.com

 

[Tobytone]

Absolutely. These people were dedicated not some con job; con artists would never have gone to such trouble and risked death over this stuff; there was no money in it for them, just a good chance of arrest and torture and gruesome deaths. These scrolls were pretty elaborate, and followed the Jewish literary styles, and as Joachim Jeremia has definitely proven, the writings are very contemporary with Jewish society and culture of the times, no anachronisms as would be the case if as some idiots claim 'it was all made up by Constantine n stuff' some300 years later. Even the writings are laid out in a literary structure that clearly indicates they come from oral histories. Some of them quite complex, again evidence they aren't just made up by con artists, who wouldn't have bothered with such detail.

Example, from the Pentateuch:

Genesis – BIBLICAL CHIASM EXCHANGE

www.chiasmusxchange.com

Genesis 22 as “Ring composition”

In her book “Thinking in Circles” (Yale University Press, 2007, pg 21) the late Mary Douglas proposed that Genesis 22 is a ring composition, a form of chiasmus but with a subtle differ…

www.chiasmusxchange.com

Amen, whenever I see conversations like these by lost ideologues that are usually self proclaimed 'intelligent' college educated atheist. (apparently their crowning achievement in life) I always think of Romans 1:22 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"

 

[Daylight63]

@Cypress Lots of people claim to "see" their dead relatives/friends. Of all the "this makes no sense" things associated with the resurrection, this might be the least weird.

Indeed.

Given that we have COUNTLESS examples of people who see their dead relatives after they pass (my mom claims to have seen her mom and the list is essentially endless).

Now I'm pretty sure my grandma was not resurrected from the grave to come visit my mom one last time. But I can certainly understand mom's desire for that very thing even going so far as to be part of a vivid dream etc.

Human brains trick us all the time. It is literally part of our DNA.

But I'm sure in the case of Jesus and the Disciples there's literally no other possible explanation than that the he arose from the dead and then ascended into heaven (or "disappeared" depending on which WITNESS you wish to go with).

 

[Daylight63]

Amen, whenever I see conversations like these by lost ideologues that are usually self proclaimed 'intelligent' college educated atheist. (apparently their crowning achievement in life) I always think of Romans 1:22 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"

So those who fail to believe as you do without evidence are the fools in this scenario?

 

[Daylight63]

Right. People aren't lying when they genuinely hallucinate. They genuinely believe it.

OK. You are getting very close now to understand. Let's see how you fare...

So the argument that the resurrection account is based on intentional fabrications and lies

The ONLY person on this entire forum that I've EVER heard suggest that the Jesus resurrection story is some concocted lie/conspiracy is YOU.

YOU are the only person who thinks people think that.

No one on here has suggested the "lie" hypothesis except you and ONLY so you can make points against atheists whom you REALLY seem to hate.

doesn't hold water. Even reputable scholars of antiquity don't buy that.

And, again, only YOU have so far suggested this.

Next, you are on thin ice trying to explain how dozens of people all had the same hallucination. Seems highly improbable.

Miracle at Fatima. Google it. Large numbers of people "saw" the sun dancing. Do YOU think the sun actually danced for people in Portugal in the early 20th century?

I know you're gullible, but c'mon man, you are presumably an adult, right?

My theory fits the accepted historical accounts, but doesn't require either mass hallucinations nor the supernatural.

Your theory is fine insofar as it goes. But it does make liars of the same people you claim didn't lie.

Just sayin'.

 

[Cypress]

OK. You are getting very close now to understand. Let's see how you fare...



The ONLY person on this entire forum that I've EVER heard suggest that the Jesus resurrection story is some concocted lie/conspiracy is YOU.

YOU are the only person who thinks people think that.

No one on here has suggested the "lie" hypothesis except you and ONLY so you can make points against atheists whom you REALLY seem to hate.



And, again, only YOU have so far suggested this.



Miracle at Fatima. Google it. Large numbers of people "saw" the sun dancing. Do YOU think the sun actually danced for people in Portugal in the early 20th century?

I know you're gullible, but c'mon man, you are presumably an adult, right?




Your theory is fine insofar as it goes. But it does make liars of the same people you claim didn't lie.

Just sayin'.

Are you aware that according to your posting history, since March 28 at least 80 to 90 percent of your posts have been on threads I authored?

That's really bizarre and strange.

That kind of obsession is exactly what Perry PhD had.

 

[Daylight63]

They were recording oral histories from witnesses, so they wouldn't be lost via persecutions and deaths

Eyewitness testimony is repeatedly shown by studies to be unreliable. Now make it "eyewitness testimony" stories from 40 years earlier. If I had to tell you what _I_ did 40 years ago I'd probably have a tough time, let alone someone who wasn't me and may not have even known me telling the stories.

Apparently some think that just because there was no Kinko's Copies and Microsoft Word software the sources are not valid,

Look up the various studies on eyewitness testimony. It has been shown to be often times quite poor.

but mainly we know they make such claims because they want to rewrite it all to suit themselves and they have make up a fake history to do so, after these stupid efforts to discredit the real history.

So your preferred history is correct and those who dare question it must be rewriting it for nefarious reasons.

There's ZERO chance that parts of the Bible were made up for political or social reasons. It is and remains the ONLY thing written wholly by humans over the course of thousands of years and which is perfected truth.

 

[Daylight63]

Are you aware that according to your posting history, since March 28 at least 80 to 90 percent of your posts have been on threads I authored?

That's really bizarre and strange.

So you can't address your own point and as per usual you derail the thread so you can obsess on me.

Wow.


Why can't you stay on topic?


(DUDE: You're DOING MATH ON MY POSTS. You are sitting at home with an excel spreadsheet tracking my posts. What a freaky stalker)

 

[Daylight63]

Are you aware that according to your posting history, since March 28 at least 80 to 90 percent of your posts have been on threads I authored

This is creepy as fuck! This poster is sitting there at home SO OBSESSED with me that he's tracking my posting behavior down to the PERCENTAGES.

Creeeepy.

 

[Cypress]

This is creepy as fuck!

Perry, between you and all your socks, at least 80 percent of your posts and your time here are spent on threads I author.

This obsession goes all the way back to your Perry PhD sock.

You attempt to claim my threads are irritating and annoying, but the fact you spend so much time on them obviously means my threads are your favorite way to spend time on JPP.

 

[IBDaMann]

Sure, it's possible everybody was lying.

What's your explanation for how urban legends get started, or do you believe that urban legends are not possible?

People never choose to die for what they know is a lie though,

Sure they do, if they have enough political and emotional equity invested in the lie. It happens often, and currently Benjamin Netanyahu falls into that category, as an example.

 

[Cypress]

What's your explanation for how urban legends get started, or do you believe that urban legends are not possible?

It takes many decades or centuries for legends to get established. That doesn't apply to the crucifixion story.

The early Christian belief that Jesus was crucified and resurrected goes all the way back to the earliest days of the Jerusalem church. This is confirmed by the pre-existing creed Paul quotes in Corinthians; a creed which probably goes back to the 30s AD, shortly after the events of the crucifixion.

That is way too short of a time for fabricated legendary accounts to establish and take root.

Sure they do, if they have enough political and emotional equity invested in the lie. It happens often, and currently Benjamin Netanyahu falls into that category, as an example.

What lie is Netanyahu demonstrably willing to die for?

Netanyahu is a true believer in the State of Israel, and the need to be ruthless in it's defense.

Whether or not you agree with his machiavellian methods doesn't do anything to change the fact he is a true believer in militant zionism. He's not faking or fabricating his belief in Zionism.

 

[EdwinA]

Eyewitness testimony is repeatedly shown by studies to be unreliable. Now make it "eyewitness testimony" stories from 40 years earlier. If I had to tell you what _I_ did 40 years ago I'd probably have a tough time, let alone someone who wasn't me and may not have even known me telling the stories.

Says a clown who needs to promote whatever it is commies have told him to promote. You somehow think that translates into you getting to be taken seriously on your own fake narratives, do you?

 

[Tobytone]

So those who fail to believe as you do without evidence are the fools in this scenario?

No, you're left-wing loons clutching your atheist pamphlets, Romans 1:22’s got your number, and this hallucination nonsense is just the tip of the fool’s iceberg. Your whole party’s a clown car of idiocy. Can’t even define a woman without a diversity seminar and a panic attack. Laughable. You’re cheering while your pals set fellow liberal's Tesla's ablaze, thinking it’ll dunk on Elon. Brilliant strategy, geniuses, that'll really put a hurt on the richest man in the world. You’re tripping over yourselves to let some confused dude claim he’s a lady and dominate women’s sports, because “transgender” is your sacred buzzword. Pathetic.

Your big afterlife plan? A cosmic shrug. Why bother caring about the future or anyone else when it’s all pointless, right? Pure Democrat gospel: me, myself, and I. I could go on, but it’s overkill for you self-proclaimed brainiacs who think Jesus’ resurrection was a group acid trip. You strut as the “smart” ones, yet you’re the poster kids for folly, proving scripture right with every smug tweet. @EdwinA gave you all you need to discount this truly moronic theory that you guys are debating like it's the long awaited conclusive proof the resurrection never happened, lol.

 

[IBDaMann]

It takes many decades or centuries for legends to get established.

Urban legends can form within hours.

The early Christian belief that Jesus was crucified and resurrected goes all the way back to the earliest days of the Jerusalem church.

That particular Christian belief goes all the way back to many years after the event supposedly happened. That the life of Jesus happened is purely a matter of faith. Those who believe it happened cannot prove that it did, while those who believe that it did not happen cannot prove that it did not. I know that you believe wholeheartedly that Jesus was an historical figure, and that is your belief. You are joined by many Christians who believe likewise. This faith has led to incalculable benefits to the world. The miracle to be witnessed here is that all of these people throughout history who contributed value to human society resulting from their faith that Jesus was an historical figure, all did so knowing that they could not prove that Jesus was an historical figure, that their faith was simply a matter of faith. They did not deny their faith until they saw the holes in the hands, as it were.

Your attempts to prove that Jesus was historical will all be in vain, and that is precisely why you should instead be celebrating your faith. However, you seem to be determined to make the Global Warming error, i.e. declare your faith to be thettled thienth. You are inseparably linking your faith to your ability to establish the historicity of Jesus ... which you cannot do. The only possible result is to witness your beliefs rendered FALSE, which otherwise would not happen as long as you were to embrace your beliefs as a matter of faith.

This is confirmed by the pre-existing creed Paul quotes in Corinthians;

It's not confirmed by any means.

That is way too short of a time for fabricated legendary accounts to establish and take root.

If the whole life of Jesus was one big urban legend, there are no time requirements for anything.

What lie is Netanyahu demonstrably willing to die for?

Benjamin Netanyahu is willing to die to protect the secret that Gaza's administrators (the actual Hamas) never attacked Israel. The Israeli government, including Netanyahu, are well aware that Iran attacked Israel on 7-Oct-2023, but that Netanyahu seized the opportunity to effect the 2nd Nakba and become a god to the Israeli public, all for the long-term benefit of the Likud Party. The big lie is the deliberate conflation of Gaza's administrators and Gaza's civilian Arab population, which they all label as "Hamas," who never attacked Israel, with Al Qassam, Iran's wholly-owned terrorist organization who did attack Israel on 7-Oct and who took the hostages (this is why the IDF could never find any hostages in Gaza, why Trump's multiple threats of raining "Holy Hell" on Hamas never had any chance of succeeding in getting hostages released, and why all hostage negotiations were held in Qatar with Al Qassam's representatives). Netanyahu chose to perpetrate genocide against Arabs, which could earn him a death sentence, but he believes he can get away with it considering the extent to which Israel controls the US government and controls much of what the US population believes overall.

The point is that Netanyahu is willing to die for his secret which he considers to be an invaluable opportunity that he could not pass up.

Netanyahu is a true believer in the State of Israel,

Yep.

and the need to be ruthless in it's defense.

Nope. Frankly, he's a total coward, like all bullies are. He absolutely will not invade Iran and seek retribution because that would require courage. Instead, he decided to seize the opportunity to reign even more terror on Arabs by proceeding with his Party's promised ethnic cleansing, ... and he has been amply rewarded by seeing increases in his popularity commensurate with the brutality of the genocide he is inflicting. Israel is mostly a RACIST country that HATES Arabs, and the killing of unarmed civilian Arab noncombatants by the tens of thousands is met with thunderous applause in Israel, and amongst Team Israel in the US.

Whether or not you agree with his machiavellian methods doesn't do anything to change the fact ...

... that he is ergregiously violating both the Convention against Genocide and the IV Geneva Convention.

The United States and Israel are signatories to both; they both signed and ratified these conventions into law, agreeing to be bound by their terms, to avoid the prohibitions and to demand accountability of those signatories who violate them.

he is a true believer in militant zionism. He's not faking or fabricating his belief in Zionism.

But he is lying to further his grand political agenda, and it could get him killed.

 

[EdwinA]

Urban legends can form within hours.


That particular Christian belief goes all the way back to many years after the event supposedly happened. That the life of Jesus happened is purely a matter of faith. Those who believe it happened cannot prove that it did, while those who believe that it did not happen cannot prove that it did not. I know that you believe wholeheartedly that Jesus was an historical figure, and that is your belief. You are joined by many Christians who believe likewise. This faith has led to incalculable benefits to the world. The miracle to be witnessed here is that all of these people throughout history who contributed value to human society resulting from their faith that Jesus was an historical figure, all did so knowing that they could not prove that Jesus was an historical figure, that their faith was simply a matter of faith. They did not deny their faith until they saw the holes in the hands, as it were.

Your attempts to prove that Jesus was historical will all be in vain, and that is precisely why you should instead be celebrating your faith. However, you seem to be determined to make the Global Warming error, i.e. declare your faith to be thettled thienth. You are inseparably linking your faith to your ability to establish the historicity of Jesus ... which you cannot do. The only possible result is to witness your beliefs rendered FALSE, which otherwise would not happen as long as you were to embrace your beliefs as a matter of faith.


It's not confirmed by any means.


If the whole life of Jesus was one big urban legend, there are no time requirements for anything.


Benjamin Netanyahu is willing to die to protect the secret that Gaza's administrators (the actual Hamas) never attacked Israel. The Israeli government, including Netanyahu, are well aware that Iran attacked Israel on 7-Oct-2023, but that Netanyahu seized the opportunity to effect the 2nd Nakba and become a god to the Israeli public, all for the long-term benefit of the Likud Party. The big lie is the deliberate conflation of Gaza's administrators and Gaza's civilian Arab population, which they all label as "Hamas," who never attacked Israel, with Al Qassam, Iran's wholly-owned terrorist organization who did attack Israel on 7-Oct and who took the hostages (this is why the IDF could never find any hostages in Gaza, why Trump's multiple threats of raining "Holy Hell" on Hamas never had any chance of succeeding in getting hostages released, and why all hostage negotiations were held in Qatar with Al Qassam's representatives). Netanyahu chose to perpetrate genocide against Arabs, which could earn him a death sentence, but he believes he can get away with it considering the extent to which Israel controls the US government and controls much of what the US population believes overall.

The point is that Netanyahu is willing to die for his secret which he considers to be an invaluable opportunity that he could not pass up.


Yep.


Nope. Frankly, he's a total coward, like all bullies are. He absolutely will not invade Iran and seek retribution because that would require courage. Instead, he decided to seize the opportunity to reign even more terror on Arabs by proceeding with his Party's promised ethnic cleansing, ... and he has been amply rewarded by seeing increases in his popularity commensurate with the brutality of the genocide he is inflicting. Israel is mostly a RACIST country that HATES Arabs, and the killing of unarmed civilian Arab noncombatants by the tens of thousands is met with thunderous applause in Israel, and amongst Team Israel in the US.


... that he is ergregiously violating both the Convention against Genocide and the IV Geneva Convention.

The United States and Israel are signatories to both; they both signed and ratified these conventions into law, agreeing to be bound by their terms, to avoid the prohibitions and to demand accountability of those signatories who violate them.


But he is lying to further his grand political agenda, and it could get him killed.

Another angry sociopath who hates all that Jesus stuff cuz it interferes with wide open idiot 'social darwinism' fantasies of the allegedly 'self made' who would have been dead at birth without govt. regulations and laws, and thinks learning how to exploit and get around those to line their pockets is some sort of sign of genetic superiority, when all it is a criminal inclination to mooch off the sweat of others, nothing special except when there really are no laws and his type soon get exterminated since they can't play well with others by the brighter and more socially competent and organized.

As history shows, it is when tribes and nations fall into the anarchy these fake 'libertoons' peddle as the 'Ideal' that they collapse and fall prey to those who can cooperate and coordinate with others the most efficiently. They never notice even corporations aren't a collection of little free internal markets, but organizations run by dictatorships. The differences between how Christians organize themselves and psychotic halfwit with high self-esteem organize their communities accounts for its success in the material world, and with its decline so goes the wealth and prosperity of the Wests' material world. Even a Roman Emperor noticed the differences and adopted it for his own empire; it proved to be a great improvement over paganism even at its worst. Leftists hate it no end, but as we've seen sexual deviancy and homocidal fits of rage are endemic among leftists and their fellow corporatists on the 'Right', so there is this massive effort to wipe out the Evul Xians. Whether or not Jesus really exists isn't the primary goal for trying to discredit the theology and philosophy; the enemy is how closely it mimicks real humanity and provides a means to resist depravity, over-whelming greed, and mindless violence, something paganism and its spawn marxism and corporate dictatorships can't do.

A more detailed exegesis, from an atheist, on why Christianity's influence on the West has been far more successful than 'rational constructivism' ever will.':

Review: The Fatal Conceit – The one-handed economist

Of course, almost all the reviews leave out his critiques in favor of Christian value systems as opposed to 'secular' handwaves that promote corruption and individual greed, which is to be expected in modern academia and fashion. Same with marxists and Hegel's assertions that Christianity is the highest development of theology and values..

 

[IBDaMann]

Another angry sociopath who hates all that Jesus stuff cuz it interferes with wide open idiot 'social darwinism' fantasies of the allegedly 'self made' who would have been dead at birth without govt. regulations and laws, and thinks learning how to exploit and get around those to line their pockets is some sort of sign of genetic superiority, when all it is a criminal inclination to mooch off the sweat of others, nothing special except when there really are no laws and his type soon get exterminated since they can't play well with others by the brighter and more socially competent and organized.

As history shows, it is when tribes and nations fall into the anarchy these fake 'libertoons' peddle as the 'Ideal' that they collapse and fall prey to those who can cooperate and coordinate with others the most efficiently. They never notice even corporations aren't a collection of little free internal markets, but organizations run by dictatorships. The differences between how Christians organize themselves and psychotic halfwit with high self-esteem organize their communities accounts for its success in the material world, and with its decline so goes the wealth and prosperity of the Wests' material world. Even a Roman Emperor noticed the differences and adopted it for his own empire; it proved to be a great improvement over paganism even at its worst. Leftists hate it no end, but as we've seen sexual deviancy and homocidal fits of rage are endemic among leftists and their fellow corporatists on the 'Right', so there is this massive effort to wipe out the Evul Xians. Whether or not Jesus really exists isn't the primary goal for trying to discredit the theology and philosophy; the enemy is how closely it mimicks real humanity and provides a means to resist depravity, over-whelming greed, and mindless violence, something paganism and its spawn marxism and corporate dictatorships can't do.

A more detailed exegesis, from an atheist, on why Christianity's influence on the West has been far more successful than 'rational constructivism' ever will.':

Review: The Fatal Conceit – The one-handed economist

Of course, almost all the reviews leave out his critiques in favor of Christian value systems as opposed to 'secular' handwaves that promote corruption and individual greed, which is to be expected in modern academia and fashion. Same with marxists and Hegel's assertions that Christianity is the highest development of theology and values..

It would appear that you didn't read my post.

 

[EdwinA]

It would appear that you didn't read my post.

It is clear you never read them, either.