Atheist conclusions about the historicity of the resurrection

Urban legends can form within hours.


That particular Christian belief goes all the way back to many years after the event supposedly happened. That the life of Jesus happened is purely a matter of faith. Those who believe it happened cannot prove that it did, while those who believe that it did not happen cannot prove that it did not. I know that you believe wholeheartedly that Jesus was an historical figure, and that is your belief. You are joined by many Christians who believe likewise. This faith has led to incalculable benefits to the world. The miracle to be witnessed here is that all of these people throughout history who contributed value to human society resulting from their faith that Jesus was an historical figure, all did so knowing that they could not prove that Jesus was an historical figure, that their faith was simply a matter of faith. They did not deny their faith until they saw the holes in the hands, as it were.

Your attempts to prove that Jesus was historical will all be in vain, and that is precisely why you should instead be celebrating your faith. However, you seem to be determined to make the Global Warming error, i.e. declare your faith to be thettled thienth. You are inseparably linking your faith to your ability to establish the historicity of Jesus ... which you cannot do. The only possible result is to witness your beliefs rendered FALSE, which otherwise would not happen as long as you were to embrace your beliefs as a matter of faith.


It's not confirmed by any means.


If the whole life of Jesus was one big urban legend, there are no time requirements for anything.


Benjamin Netanyahu is willing to die to protect the secret that Gaza's administrators (the actual Hamas) never attacked Israel. The Israeli government, including Netanyahu, are well aware that Iran attacked Israel on 7-Oct-2023, but that Netanyahu seized the opportunity to effect the 2nd Nakba and become a god to the Israeli public, all for the long-term benefit of the Likud Party. The big lie is the deliberate conflation of Gaza's administrators and Gaza's civilian Arab population, which they all label as "Hamas," who never attacked Israel, with Al Qassam, Iran's wholly-owned terrorist organization who did attack Israel on 7-Oct and who took the hostages (this is why the IDF could never find any hostages in Gaza, why Trump's multiple threats of raining "Holy Hell" on Hamas never had any chance of succeeding in getting hostages released, and why all hostage negotiations were held in Qatar with Al Qassam's representatives). Netanyahu chose to perpetrate genocide against Arabs, which could earn him a death sentence, but he believes he can get away with it considering the extent to which Israel controls the US government and controls much of what the US population believes overall.

The point is that Netanyahu is willing to die for his secret which he considers to be an invaluable opportunity that he could not pass up.


Yep.


Nope. Frankly, he's a total coward, like all bullies are. He absolutely will not invade Iran and seek retribution because that would require courage. Instead, he decided to seize the opportunity to reign even more terror on Arabs by proceeding with his Party's promised ethnic cleansing, ... and he has been amply rewarded by seeing increases in his popularity commensurate with the brutality of the genocide he is inflicting. Israel is mostly a RACIST country that HATES Arabs, and the killing of unarmed civilian Arab noncombatants by the tens of thousands is met with thunderous applause in Israel, and amongst Team Israel in the US.


... that he is ergregiously violating both the Convention against Genocide and the IV Geneva Convention.

The United States and Israel are signatories to both; they both signed and ratified these conventions into law, agreeing to be bound by their terms, to avoid the prohibitions and to demand accountability of those signatories who violate them.


But he is lying to further his grand political agenda, and it could get him killed.

Paul quotes a creed demonstrating early Christians believed in a resurrected Christ from the earliest days of the Church, back in the 30s AD. That's too early for it to be a legendary account. Eyewitnesses were still alive who could dispute a fabricated legend.

You would end up having to claim that everybody in the early Christian community was conspiring to spread a lie they knew was false. Which no reputable scholars of the New Testament believe happened.


Okay, so you can't actually show that Netanyahu would willingly die for something he knows is a lie. So we agree that nobody willingly dies for something they know is a lie.
 
... that he is ergregiously violating both the Convention against Genocide and the IV Geneva Convention.

lol rubbish. Over 70% of the vermin who elected the scum still supported their thuggery, up until the idiots started losing, of course, now they're whining as usual about reaping what they sowed. Their 'govt. is still at war, will not accept a peace deal, and hence are still considered enemy combatants. Sucks to be a Jew hating sociopath backing a bunch of feral animals as they lose their Jihad cult genocides attempts, which is what they are advocating, it's in their frigging 'Charter', so hopefully the Israelis rid themselves of these animals conclusively this time.

If they had any brains they would accept Trump's proposal and agree to being shipped off to Sudan or Somalia, where they can happily join their Janjaweed brothers in robbing and murdering their neighbors.
 
Paul quotes a creed demonstrating early Christians believed in a resurrected Christ from the earliest days of the Church, back in the 30s AD. That's too early for it to be a legendary account. Eyewitnesses were still alive who could dispute a fabricated legend.

You would end up having to claim that everybody in the early Christian community was conspiring to spread a lie they knew was false. Which no reputable scholars of the New Testament believe happened.


Okay, so you can't actually show that Netanyahu would willingly die for something he knows is a lie. So we agree that nobody willingly dies for something they know is a lie.

They hate Netanyahu precisely because he isn't a coward, and he knows exactly what these vermin are and have been since they were invented as a 'people' and paid to commit murders against Israelis and Europeans.
 
Urban legends can form within hours.


That particular Christian belief goes all the way back to many years after the event supposedly happened. That the life of Jesus happened is purely a matter of faith. Those who believe it happened cannot prove that it did, while those who believe that it did not happen cannot prove that it did not. I know that you believe wholeheartedly that Jesus was an historical figure, and that is your belief. You are joined by many Christians who believe likewise. This faith has led to incalculable benefits to the world. The miracle to be witnessed here is that all of these people throughout history who contributed value to human society resulting from their faith that Jesus was an historical figure, all did so knowing that they could not prove that Jesus was an historical figure, that their faith was simply a matter of faith. They did not deny their faith until they saw the holes in the hands, as it were.

Your attempts to prove that Jesus was historical will all be in vain, and that is precisely why you should instead be celebrating your faith. However, you seem to be determined to make the Global Warming error, i.e. declare your faith to be thettled thienth. You are inseparably linking your faith to your ability to establish the historicity of Jesus ... which you cannot do. The only possible result is to witness your beliefs rendered FALSE, which otherwise would not happen as long as you were to embrace your beliefs as a matter of faith.


It's not confirmed by any means.


If the whole life of Jesus was one big urban legend, there are no time requirements for anything.


Benjamin Netanyahu is willing to die to protect the secret that Gaza's administrators (the actual Hamas) never attacked Israel. The Israeli government, including Netanyahu, are well aware that Iran attacked Israel on 7-Oct-2023, but that Netanyahu seized the opportunity to effect the 2nd Nakba and become a god to the Israeli public, all for the long-term benefit of the Likud Party. The big lie is the deliberate conflation of Gaza's administrators and Gaza's civilian Arab population, which they all label as "Hamas," who never attacked Israel, with Al Qassam, Iran's wholly-owned terrorist organization who did attack Israel on 7-Oct and who took the hostages (this is why the IDF could never find any hostages in Gaza, why Trump's multiple threats of raining "Holy Hell" on Hamas never had any chance of succeeding in getting hostages released, and why all hostage negotiations were held in Qatar with Al Qassam's representatives). Netanyahu chose to perpetrate genocide against Arabs, which could earn him a death sentence, but he believes he can get away with it considering the extent to which Israel controls the US government and controls much of what the US population believes overall.

The point is that Netanyahu is willing to die for his secret which he considers to be an invaluable opportunity that he could not pass up.


Yep.


Nope. Frankly, he's a total coward, like all bullies are. He absolutely will not invade Iran and seek retribution because that would require courage. Instead, he decided to seize the opportunity to reign even more terror on Arabs by proceeding with his Party's promised ethnic cleansing, ... and he has been amply rewarded by seeing increases in his popularity commensurate with the brutality of the genocide he is inflicting. Israel is mostly a RACIST country that HATES Arabs, and the killing of unarmed civilian Arab noncombatants by the tens of thousands is met with thunderous applause in Israel, and amongst Team Israel in the US.


... that he is ergregiously violating both the Convention against Genocide and the IV Geneva Convention.

The United States and Israel are signatories to both; they both signed and ratified these conventions into law, agreeing to be bound by their terms, to avoid the prohibitions and to demand accountability of those signatories who violate them.


But he is lying to further his grand political agenda, and it could get him killed.
By your standard, we can't believe that anyone pre-camera and tape recorder can be proven real. Was Alexander the great real, or Buddha, or Caesar, or Spartacus, or Nero...you get the point. Is there some credible evidence to the contrary? There should be lots of it from that time in history. Right? Despite opposition to early Christianity (e.g., from Jewish authorities or Roman officials), no texts from this era argue that Jesus was a myth or fictional.

Here are a few reasons we can be confident that Jesus was indeed a living breathing human being that walked the earth.
  1. Absence of Contemporary Denials: No 1st-century sources dispute Jesus’ existence or execution, despite opposition to Christianity, suggesting his life and death were accepted facts.
  2. Gospel Accounts: The New Testament Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), written within decades of Jesus’ life, detail his ministry, teachings, and crucifixion under Pontius Pilate.
  3. Tacitus’ Annals: Roman historian Tacitus (c. 116 AD) references Jesus’ execution by Pilate in Judea, confirming his death during Tiberius’ reign, in a non-Christian source.
  4. Josephus’ Antiquities: Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (c. 93 AD) mentions Jesus as a teacher executed by Pilate, with the passage (Testimonium Flavianum) partially authentic.
  5. Suetonius’ Record: Roman historian Suetonius (c. 121 AD) notes disturbances caused by “Chrestus” (likely Christ) in Rome, indirectly supporting Jesus’ influence.
  6. Pliny the Younger’s Letters: Pliny (c. 112 AD) describes early Christians worshiping Jesus as divine, indicating a real person inspired a movement soon after his death.
  7. Crucifixion Evidence: Archaeological finds, like a crucified man’s heel bone from Jerusalem (1968), confirm crucifixion as a Roman execution method in Jesus’ era.
  8. Early Christian Creeds: Texts like 1 Corinthians 15:3-5 (c. 50 AD) record early beliefs in Jesus’ death and resurrection, suggesting a historical event widely accepted.
  9. Non-Christian Jewish Sources: Talmudic references (c. 2nd-5th centuries AD) mention Jesus’ execution for sorcery, acknowledging his existence from a hostile view.
  10. Rapid Spread of Christianity: The explosive growth of Christianity in the 1st century, despite persecution, implies a real figure like Jesus, killed publicly, sparked it.
 
Atheist New Testament scholar Gerd Lüdemann evaluated every reference to Jesus' resurrection in the New Testament, as well as apocryphal literature. Through this approach, he offers a reconstruction of the probable course of events as well as the circumstances surrounding Jesus' death on the cross, the burial of his body, his reported resurrection on the third day, and subsequent appearances to various disciples.

The Christian faith Luedemann concludes ultimately stems from hallucinations of Peter and the other disciples, both men and women.

From a modern perspective this leads to the inescapable conclusion that the primary witnesses to Jesus' resurrection were victims of self-deception.

In conclusion, he asks whether in light of the nonhistoricity of Jesus' resurrection, thinking people today can legitimately and in good conscience still call themselves Christians.



https://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Christ-Historical-Inquiry/dp/1591022452
https://www.fortresspress.com/store/product/9780800627928/The-Resurrection-of-Jesus
Does one really have to believe the biblical stories to be Christian,
or does one merely have to accept the moral teachings of the New Testament?

We have plenty of people who do the former but not the latter,
and to me, at least,
they've got it backwards.
 
Perry, between you and all your socks, at least 80 percent of your posts and your time here are spent on threads I author. :laugh:

This obsession goes all the way back to your Perry PhD sock.

You attempt to claim my threads are irritating and annoying, but the fact you spend so much time on them obviously means my threads are your favorite way to spend time on JPP.

^^^^^Keeps track of my posting behavior and has actually calculated my posting percentage.


Creeeeeeeeeeeepy.
 
There is a difference between healthy skepticism, and hyper-skepticism.

The hyper-skeptic has an agenda, is not looking for the truth, and basically just doesn't want to believe something.

The hyper-skeptic demands documentary evidence and standards for the historicity of Jesus that they would never demand for Alexander the Great, Herodotus, the histories of Plutarch, Confucius.

Book
Written How Many Years After Events
Described in the Book?
Analects of Confucious
200 years​
Anabasis of Alexander (Life and Campaigns of Alexander the Great)
400 years​
Gospel of Mark
35 years​
1 Corinthians
Less than 20 years​
Pre-Pauline Creed in 1 Corinthians 2:15
Less than 10 years​
Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (Edward Gibbons)
1,300 years​
Gospel of John
60 years​
Histories (by Herodotus)
50-60 years​
Greek and Roman written accounts of Chandragupta Maurya, founder of the Mauryan Empire of India
300 years​
Guns of August (History of WW1 by Barbara Tuchman)
48 years​
History of the Peloponnesian War (Thucydides)
Quasi-contemporaneous, written during the Peloponnesian War​
 
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Does one really have to believe the biblical stories to be Christian,
or does one merely have to accept the moral teachings of the New Testament?

We have plenty of people who do the former but not the latter,
and to me, at least,
they've got it backwards.
You're right, it seems like Diests and Unitarians accept Jesus as a prophet and teacher, but do not believe he has a divine nature.
 
Does one really have to believe the biblical stories to be Christian,
or does one merely have to accept the moral teachings of the New Testament?

We have plenty of people who do the former but not the latter,
and to me, at least,
they've got it backwards.

This is a good question. One must believe that Jesus literally died for our sins and you are required to accept him as your lord and savior (after you admit you are in need of salvation).

The arguments I've heard from Biblical literalists are that one must believe every word (every jot and tittle) as Jesus no doubt did. But I don't think that actually factors into any given christian salvation scheme.

I should think the narrative about the crucifiction, death, burial and resurrection are critical pieces and should be believed to be literally true if one wishes to honor the reason for one's own beliefs.

For any rational, dispassionate analysis the entire narrative doesn't have to be true. Obviously there's no contemporary writings by people directly involved that we have access to at this time.
 
They hate Netanyahu precisely because he isn't a coward, and he knows exactly what these vermin are and have been since they were invented as a 'people' and paid to commit murders against Israelis and Europeans.
I'm not a fan of Netanyahu, but it was utterly preposterous to attempt to compare Netanyahu to the martyrdom of Peter and Paul.
 
No, you're left-wing loons clutching your atheist pamphlets, Romans 1:22’s got your number,

Or maybe it has yours.


Your big afterlife plan? A cosmic shrug.

Unlike you I don't need unicorns and party balloons.


Why bother caring about the future or anyone else when it’s all pointless, right?

Because we are here right now and this is the only go-round. If you can't think of any reason to be decent to other people other than "GOD TOLD ME TO" then you are the "bad person".


Pure Democrat gospel: me, myself, and I.

Which is why I pay more in taxes to support people like you. I care about those who have less than I do and who are less capable.

I could go on

I'm sure.

, but it’s overkill for you self-proclaimed brainiacs

Never claimed that. Is it because I can write in complete sentences and know how to make nouns and verbs agree that makes you think I'm some sort of "brainiac"?


who think Jesus’ resurrection was a group acid trip.

And now we get to the crux. I don't believe as you do so I must be EEEEEEVIL.


You strut as the “smart” ones, yet you’re the poster kids for folly, proving scripture right with every smug twee

I don't use Twitter or X.


. @EdwinA gave you all you need to discount this truly moronic theory that you guys are debating like it's the long awaited conclusive proof the resurrection never happened, lol.

If the resurrection happened and you think it touches your life why aren't you a better person? If Jesus is your guy why are you such a dick?
 
The noteworthy thing here is that even a respected atheist New Testament scholar won't take up the torch of saying everyone was lying about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. He thinks there is enough reliable historicity to say something really did happen, the disciples really did believe they saw Jesus after the crucifixion, and it does requires an explanation - in this case, hallucinations and self delusion.

I've never heard any respected scholar of antiquity say the evidence points to the crucifixion and resurrection being a fabricated story that was introduced to the oral and written tradition as a legendary tale decades later.
What if the resurrection was fake?

That doesnt undo the wisdom of the golden rule.
 
What if the resurrection was fake?

That doesnt undo the wisdom of the golden rule.
It would mean Jesus was a lunatic, since multiple sources claim he predicted his death and resurrection.

Then you have to decide whether you want to study the teachings of a madman, or whether your time is better spent studying the teachings of someone who was clearly sane - for example Confucius or Marcus Aurelius.
 
It would mean Jesus was a lunatic, since multiple sources claim he predicted his death and resurrection.

Then you have to decide whether you want to study the teachings of a madman, or whether your time is better spent studying the teachings of someone who was clearly sane - for example Confucius or Marcus Aurelius.
I am agnostic/undecided about what exactly happened at the events surrounding the crucifixion, but the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount don't register with me as somebody who was a lunatic.

View: https://youtu.be/o5OnF3sg0cY?si=-FmS3J4PC-6gNnI-
 
I am agnostic/undecided about what exactly happened at the events surrounding the crucifixion, but the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount don't register with me as somebody who was a lunatic.

Is that why you act like they are jokes?

Blessed are those who show compassion and forgiveness, as they will receive mercy. LOL. You are incapable of showing mercy. Whoever Percy is has your undying hatred that will apparently go to your grave with you. Your hatred for this person is SO STRONG you spill it over on me and whomever else you don't like at the time. You don't know what forgiveness is if this guy got you this upset that even strangers get the brunt of your upset.


Blessed are those with a sincere and honest heart: LOL. The guy who CONSTANTLY misrepresents other people's posts and then attacks them for it surely doesn't know what this phrase means.


Blessed are those who actively work to bring peace and reconciliation: LOL. Again, your enemies list seems pretty long. You and Doc seem to just sit on here bitching about everyone else.


So you'll forgive me if I think you actually DO think the Beatitudes are uttered by a lunatic. You hold them in extreme disdain apparently.
 
I'm not a fan of Netanyahu, but it was utterly preposterous to attempt to compare Netanyahu to the martyrdom of Peter and Paul.

He had real military experience, unlike any Hamas leaders, whose only experience is in thuggery and murdering unarmed civilians, including their own people.
 
Is that why you act like they are jokes?

Blessed are those who show compassion and forgiveness, as they will receive mercy. LOL. You are incapable of showing mercy. Whoever Percy is has your undying hatred that will apparently go to your grave with you. Your hatred for this person is SO STRONG you spill it over on me and whomever else you don't like at the time. You don't know what forgiveness is if this guy got you this upset that even strangers get the brunt of your upset.


Blessed are those with a sincere and honest heart: LOL. The guy who CONSTANTLY misrepresents other people's posts and then attacks them for it surely doesn't know what this phrase means.


Blessed are those who actively work to bring peace and reconciliation: LOL. Again, your enemies list seems pretty long. You and Doc seem to just sit on here bitching about everyone else.


So you'll forgive me if I think you actually DO think the Beatitudes are uttered by a lunatic. You hold them in extreme disdain apparently.

Without any knowledge of Jewish religion and use of language you are completely clueless as to what the 'beatitudes' really say. Quit pretending you know what you're talking about; you clearly don't.
 
Without any knowledge of Jewish religion and use of language you are completely clueless as to what the 'beatitudes' really say. Quit pretending you know what you're talking about; you clearly don't.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

So you're telling me one has to be a Jewish scholar to understand the Bible? Interesting. So may I ask why YOU think you understand it? I mean we both know you are NOT some sort of scholar of ancient languages. LOL.
 
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