A Note About Our Freedom

Bijou said:
Yeah, at the expense of thousands of livelihoods. That's 'success' a la unbridled capitalism on steroids. Outsourcing. Race-to-the-bottom. Mergers. Mass layoffs. How shocking indeed.
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American capitalism is anything BUT unbridled. There are so many rules, regulations and prohibitions on how people can make money and run businesses. We are very far away from unbridled capitalism. People get rich in this world and others, many more do not. I am certain that if asked whether they would wish to remain poor, or become wealthy, few would ever chose to remain poor. I also believe that if asked if someone would like to make 60k per year if we insured that people could not become obscenely wealthy, they would rather people could become obscenely wealthy on the off chance that they to could attain that level of wealth.
 
Bijou said:
Grow up. You're not helping things around here. People are leaving. Did you notice? Of course you didn't.

There's a difference between debate and just being a DICK - another thing for you to learn.
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Many of the people who leave here are asswholes, anyway. Sometimes, people's lives get in the way, such as with Epic burying himself in law school, but it is generally the case that people have revealed themselves to be rejects and can't handle the pain.
 
Paranoia runs deep... when anyone mentions we are losing our freedoms, raise your feet or run for the door. It is so meaningless a slogan today that one never knows who or what freedom we are losing. Gather a crowd of fanatics together, tell them they are losing their freedom, and point them in the direction of any opponent - no need to tell you the result. History is full of tragedy over imaginary losses made real.

"What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator." Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8


http://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?24865-If-Conservatism-is-the-Ideology-of-Freedom...

"Where freedom is real, equality is the passion of the masses. Where equality is real, freedom is the passion of a small minority." Eric Hoffer

The paradox of Freedom

Four woman live in two different countries, one country is a democracy and the second totalitarian. All the woman believe that they live in complete individual freedom. That value is written into the governing documents of each country. One day the two woman from the democracy decide to go on vacation. One woman buys her ticket and gets on a plane to Bermuda. The other woman has limited resources and when she gets to the airport is told she cannot board the plane without a ticket. Finally after much dispute she is arrested and thrown into a state jail.

One day the two woman in the totalitarian state decide to travel abroad. One works in government and gains permission to go to Bermuda. The other woman checks with her local commissar and is told she cannot travel to Bermuda. Travel to Bermuda is not allowed. She disputes the decision and is soon thrown into a state jail. Two woman exercised their freedom two couldn't, yet each held the same value.

If our original premise is they all have equal freedom, why are the results within these two distinct states similar? While the answer is obvious can we then say a person with limited resources is free?

with apologies to Adam Swift
 
Owl City said:
How much culture can Britain have, seeing as how you expatrioted to China in order to find some?
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You credit me with the wisdom of ages, the influence of kings and the ability of genius. The culture of Great Britain is something of which I am proud, but no matter how I try I cannot influence it any more than the Americans who have 'expatrioted'(sic)and also live in Hong Kong and countries all around the world.
The culture of China is even older than that of Great Britain, but loyalty to that culture is held, almost entirely, in the people of China.
When you get a culture you may appreciate that. of course you will be long gone.
 
Owl City said:
Many of the people who leave here are asswholes, anyway. Sometimes, people's lives get in the way, such as with Epic burying himself in law school, but it is generally the case that people have revealed themselves to be rejects and can't handle the pain.
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what the hell?


dude we are here to discuss facts.

pretty strange you think its about dilivering PAIN to people.

growth the fuck up
 
Owl City said:
Many of the people who leave here are asswholes, anyway. Sometimes, people's lives get in the way, such as with Epic burying himself in law school, but it is generally the case that people have revealed themselves to be rejects and can't handle the pain.
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Right. It's everyone else, never the dick's fault.
 
midcan5 said:
One day the two woman from the democracy decide to go on vacation. One woman buys her ticket and gets on a plane to Bermuda. The other woman has limited resources and when she gets to the airport is told she cannot board the plane without a ticket. Finally after much dispute she is arrested and thrown into a state jail.

One day the two woman in the totalitarian state decide to travel abroad. One works in government and gains permission to go to Bermuda. The other woman checks with her local commissar and is told she cannot travel to Bermuda. Travel to Bermuda is not allowed. She disputes the decision and is soon thrown into a state jail. Two woman exercised their freedom two couldn't, yet each held the same value.
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that's almost the stupidest analogy i've ever seen on this board.
 
SmarterthanYou said:
that's almost the stupidest analogy i've ever seen on this board.
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Darn, I was aiming for the superlative. But you have to answer the question, if one is unable to live a life in which they can do things, participate fully in their society, are they free? Or is freedom just an interesting concept requiring context?


"Core morality tells us that people have a right to what they earn by their own efforts freely exercised. It is this part of core morality that Ayn Rand objectivists, libertarians, and other right wingers tap into when they insist that taxation is slavery... The trouble with such arguments is that nothing is earned, nothing is deserved. Even if there really were moral rights to the fruit of our freely exercised abilities and talents, these talents and abilities are never freely acquired or exercised. Just as your innate and acquired intelligence and abilities are unearned, so also are your ambitions, along with the discipline, the willingness to train, and other traits that have to be combined with your talents and abilities to produce anything worthwhile at all.... We don't earn our inborn (excuse the expression "God given") talents and abilities. We had nothing to do with whether these traits were conferred all of us are not. Similarly, we didn't earn the acquired character traits needed to convert these talents into achievements. They, too, were the result of deterministic processes (genetic and cultural) that were set in motion long before we were born. That is what excludes the possibility that we earned or deserve them. We were just lucky to have the combination of hardwired abilities and learned ambitions that resulted in the world beating a path to our door....No one ever earned or deserved the traits that resulted in the inequalities we enjoy -greater income and wealth, better health and longer life, admiration and social distinction, comfort, and leisure. Therefore, no one, including us, has a right to those inequality. Core morality may permit unearned inequalities, but it is certainly not going to require them without some further moral reason to do so." Alex Rosenberg
 
midcan5 said:
Darn, I was aiming for the superlative. But you have to answer the question, if one is unable to live a life in which they can do things, participate fully in their society, are they free? Or is freedom just an interesting concept requiring context?


"Core morality tells us that people have a right to what they earn by their own efforts freely exercised. It is this part of core morality that Ayn Rand objectivists, libertarians, and other right wingers tap into when they insist that taxation is slavery... The trouble with such arguments is that nothing is earned, nothing is deserved. Even if there really were moral rights to the fruit of our freely exercised abilities and talents, these talents and abilities are never freely acquired or exercised. Just as your innate and acquired intelligence and abilities are unearned, so also are your ambitions, along with the discipline, the willingness to train, and other traits that have to be combined with your talents and abilities to produce anything worthwhile at all.... We don't earn our inborn (excuse the expression "God given") talents and abilities. We had nothing to do with whether these traits were conferred all of us are not. Similarly, we didn't earn the acquired character traits needed to convert these talents into achievements. They, too, were the result of deterministic processes (genetic and cultural) that were set in motion long before we were born. That is what excludes the possibility that we earned or deserve them. We were just lucky to have the combination of hardwired abilities and learned ambitions that resulted in the world beating a path to our door....No one ever earned or deserved the traits that resulted in the inequalities we enjoy -greater income and wealth, better health and longer life, admiration and social distinction, comfort, and leisure. Therefore, no one, including us, has a right to those inequality. Core morality may permit unearned inequalities, but it is certainly not going to require them without some further moral reason to do so." Alex Rosenberg
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Total and complete rubbish by Rosenberg. Yes, we do not earn some of our hardwired abilities. Everyone can throw a ball, not everyone can do so in a way that allows them to pitch or play quarterback in professional sports. However, there are some people out there with those innate talents who NEVER exert themselves enough to become great. I remember seeing a 20/20 or Dateline about a guy with a 150+ IQ. Dropped out of highschool and spent his life, into his forties as a bouncer in a bar. Lived in an apartment with 2 books, which he had never read, and he did nothing with his life. All that hardwired ability and he never so much as lifted a book to make himself better. His lack of resources was his own damn fault. He could have been just about anything he wanted but he didn't want to exert himself to get there.
 
Lowaicue said:
You credit me with the wisdom of ages, the influence of kings and the ability of genius. The culture of Great Britain is something of which I am proud, but no matter how I try I cannot influence it any more than the Americans who have 'expatrioted'(sic)and also live in Hong Kong and countries all around the world.
The culture of China is even older than that of Great Britain, but loyalty to that culture is held, almost entirely, in the people of China.
When you get a culture you may appreciate that. of course you will be long gone.
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When was the last time you were in New England? We have culture here, granted we don't have the remains of the romans who gave you your culture laying about, but we do have many remnants of the vikings, who gave you your kings. Your brash, uncalled for critizism of our culture makes you appear uncultured. I am embarassed for you.
 
Socrtease said:
Total and complete rubbish by Rosenberg. Yes, we do not earn some of our hardwired abilities. Everyone can throw a ball, not everyone can do so in a way that allows them to pitch or play quarterback in professional sports. However, there are some people out there with those innate talents who NEVER exert themselves enough to become great. I remember seeing a 20/20 or Dateline about a guy with a 150+ IQ. Dropped out of highschool and spent his life, into his forties as a bouncer in a bar. Lived in an apartment with 2 books, which he had never read, and he did nothing with his life. All that hardwired ability and he never so much as lifted a book to make himself better. His lack of resources was his own damn fault. He could have been just about anything he wanted but he didn't want to exert himself to get there.
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Note, I made minor corrections to the quote as I used a voice reader and they are not always accurate.

I noticed you didn't read his complete comment as he covers your objections. I find it funny you are shooting one of your own as Rosenberg is very much a libertarian, and if I were to object to his analysis, I would look to influences that are outside the individual. But your example of the person with the high IQ is odd for a libertarian, is this person not free to do as he pleases? And what pleases him fits with Rosenberg's comment. You assume he could be somebody other than he is. Several in our family have IQs in the range you note and I can confirm each uses it differently, some not at all.

Now if I were to disagree with Rosenberg and you, I would look to some other influences that can change a person's life. A teacher, a coach, a peer, a book... even an experience of some sort. Can we then say that the person chose those influences? You see the circle that puts us in as again did they pick those influences or were they there already. No choice, we are back where we started.

PS did you ever read my comment on your Eisenhower quote? The only modern republican president I admire, but he was far from a libertarian but very much his own person.


Correction: "Core morality tells us that people have a right to what they earn by their own efforts freely exercised. It is this part of core morality that Ayn Rand objectivists, libertarians, and other right wingers tap into when they insist that taxation is slavery... The trouble with such arguments is that nothing is earned, nothing is deserved. Even if there really were moral rights to the fruit of our freely exercised abilities and talents, these talents and abilities are never freely acquired or exercised. Just as your innate and acquired intelligence and abilities are unearned, so also are your ambitions, along with the discipline, the willingness to train, and other traits that have to be combined with your talents and abilities to produce anything worthwhile at all.... We don't earn our inborn (excuse the expression "God given") talents and abilities. We had nothing to do with whether these traits were conferred on us or not. Similarly, we didn't earn the acquired character traits needed to convert these talents into achievements. They, too, were the result of deterministic processes (genetic and cultural) that were set in motion long before we were born. That is what excludes the possibility that we earned or deserve them. We were just lucky to have the combination of hardwired abilities and learned ambitions that resulted in the world beating a path to our door....No one ever earned or deserved the traits that resulted in the inequalities we enjoy - greater income and wealth, better health and longer life, admiration and social distinction, comfort, and leisure. Therefore, no one, including us, has a moral right to those inequalities. Core morality may permit unearned inequalities, but it is certainly not going to require them without some further moral reason to do so." Alex Rosenberg
 
Rune said:
When was the last time you were in New England? We have culture here, granted we don't have the remains of the romans who gave you your culture laying about, but we do have many remnants of the vikings, who gave you your kings. Your brash, uncalled for critizism of our culture makes you appear uncultured. I am embarassed for you.
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LOL. Come on, come on, get up to speed on cross pond banter.
 
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