A President Needs Good Judgment Rather than Experience

[theMAJORITY]

Ya know folks--I might be starting to think Bush had a point with going into Iraq.--Let me explain my thought.


Think about the world situation--it is very dynamic right now. Several countries, with the thought of a one world order (a result of socialism/communisum--might I add) are jockying in position to be the boss. The USA is one of them--Russia is another, North Korea and China are there--even countryless Al-beheada is trying to take over the world.

Now--lets go into the future, knowing Saddam was a tyrant, who ruled his people like a bull dyke on a fem dyke--but he killed them. Would leaving that region alone-to flurish evil, in a dynamic world, be a great idea?

With the world dynamics (this is just a question to spurr thought), was it the worst idea to try to make one area of that hostile region a democratic society?

I know--they have their sovernty--but the people did not--only Saddam did--and he was a threat to us in not so direct ways.

Remember--when your kids were watching saturday morning cartoons---his kids were gutting goats alive--to learn to love the terror in their dying eyes.

If that mentality becomes a threat to us in a grand scale--we have a problem.

Getting (even by force) democracy in that region may not be a terrible idea--and the people will like it much better, I am sure. What can be worse?

OK--Obama--right--I agree.

 

[Cancel7]

SHUT THE FUCK UP, RETARD!

Wow. Dixie you should pre-order your meds so that this doesn't happen again. Don't wait until after you run out.

 

[Cancel7]

I remember that one; there is nothing in there about "going into Iraq."

You stupid lying fuck. It has occurred to me with this campaign that this is basically what you guys do: just keep repeating BS until it's true. I have no doubt that in a year's time, it will be accepted & unchallengable that Sarah Palin sold her plane on eBay, fired her chef & boldly stood up against the "Bridge to Nowhere."

It's what you do. It's all that you do.

Can you believe the fired the chef thing? I honestly couldn't get over that. She's not just a liar about big things, she's a petty liar too. She lies just to lie.

That's actually pathological. That's not political spinning, that's a serious mental condition. You don't want to get personally involved with a pathological person, if you have ever known any you'll know why. We're going to put one in the white house? Wow.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

SHUT THE FUCK UP, RETARD!

Oh wow, what a profound and informative rebuttal. Truth hurts pal, don't it? How's it feel to be morally culpable for the deaths of tens of thousands of people based on lies and some vague and unprovable academic theory?

Let's face it. Were in Iraq cause rednecks like you wanted to go over seas and kill Arabs, any Arabs, in revenge for 9-11. The fact that we've been killing Arabs that had nothing to do with 9-11 means nothing to you, does it?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I will ask again , How do you "win" an occupation?

You don't. The hard lesson that the wingnuts can't seem to get through their heads is a hard lesson that goes back to ancient history. Even Julius Ceaser wrote about the problem. Just because you win a war and conquer a people does not mean that you have won their consent to be governed or their good will. This is a fact that wingnuts like Dixie are obliviously and willfully ignorant of.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I'm not debating Iraq anymore, it has been debated countless times, we've been through every detail at least a dozen times in hundreds of threads, and it seems rather pointless to continue this stupid and idiotic debate. I am not here to change your minds about Iraq, and you are not going to change mine, so what is the point?

I'm telling you, your position on Iraq, is not the typical American's position, and you are going to find that out in November. I think it is probably the single biggest flaw in your political strategy for '08, to make this election about "the war" instead of other things. Most people realize we have an obligation to complete the job there and not just pull out and come home. Most people realize we simply CAN'T just pull out and come home, including Obama! Most people realize, and have realized for some time, that we are not going to just pull out and come home, regardless of WHO is president!

Oh you're right Dixie. This election will be about the war. It will be about the horrendous strategic fuck up of invading Iraq. It will be about the lies told to the American public prior to the invasion and it will be about the utter incompetence in which the war has been managed and lead by hard right wing ideologues.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Get real. If you think for one second anyone who voted for (or against) the resolution did not understand full well that it would be used to invade, then you are even more delusional than he whom you debate.

Yes it is worded vary carefully. The acronym for that is CYA. But each and every legislator who signed off on that resolution KNEW that invasion would follow. (as were those to opposed it - which was their reason for opposing it.) Anyone who says they were not aware of the consequences of the resolution, or were "hoping it would not come to invasion" is the real liar.

You can point at the wording of the document all you want and lie to yourself. Or you can admit to the reality of the situation. At the time of the declaration the vast majority of Americans wanted to go after Hussein. Congress followed popular opinion and gave Bush what he needed to invade, KNOWING full well that the "permission" they handed Bush would be used, and the phrases calling for diplomatic solutions were as empty as their collective vote-seeking heads.

And they were wrong! You failed to mention that point. The Democrats were gutless cowards in not opposing this reckless resolution.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

On the topic of Iraq. You have said it was a great thing to do. Delusional.

It was a Charlie-Foxtrot from the get go that never should have occurred. The results speak for themselves.

While I agree Hussein was a threat most of the anti-war crowd are unwilling to acknowledge, we could have handled the situation without the need for a ground war and subsequent occupation. The invasion was the wrong thing to do, both militarily and politically.

That Hussein was a threat was not the issue. There were other dictators and governments that were threat. The threat that Hussein represented was not a clear and present danger to our national security. The long standing standard for using millitary force that the Bush administration wrecklessly abandoned for some unprovable academic theory called "preemption."

 

[Onceler]

Can you believe the fired the chef thing? I honestly couldn't get over that. She's not just a liar about big things, she's a petty liar too. She lies just to lie.

That's actually pathological. That's not political spinning, that's a serious mental condition. You don't want to get personally involved with a pathological person, if you have ever known any you'll know why. We're going to put one in the white house? Wow.

No, I couldn't believe the chef thing, and it IS pathological. There is no reason whatsoever to lie about something like that.

Her speech was full of lies, big & small. But we're not supposed to focus on her now, because it's "backfiring." We're supposed to leave that "poor, innocent woman" (as Sean Hannity called her yesterday) alone.

 

[Good Luck]

And they were wrong! You failed to mention that point. The Democrats were gutless cowards in not opposing this reckless resolution.

That was not the point. Onceler was trying to spin the fact that the resolution did not directly call of invasion means it was not a call for invasion. He was the one trying to excuse those democrats who voted in favor of the resolution by trying to claim its wording somehow changes the fact that they KNEW it was for and knew how it would be used.

 

[Kamala Trump]

No, I couldn't believe the chef thing, and it IS pathological. There is no reason whatsoever to lie about something like that.

Her speech was full of lies, big & small. But we're not supposed to focus on her now, because it's "backfiring." We're supposed to leave that "poor, innocent woman" (as Sean Hannity called her yesterday) alone.

I have no horse in this race. But a nice pop in the polls is not a backfire.

 

[Onceler]

That was not the point. Onceler was trying to spin the fact that the resolution did not directly call of invasion means it was not a call for invasion. He was the one trying to excuse those democrats who voted in favor of the resolution by trying to claim its wording somehow changes the fact that they KNEW it was for and knew how it would be used.

I'm not excusing anyone. Can you find where I was excusing anyone?

Dick Armey, no far out leftie he, said he'll split the hair on that resolution until he dies. He said he was assured by Cheney several times that the admin truly intended it as a way to hold Saddam's feet to the fire; if you lived through that time period, you know that it was draped in patriotism and a large part of its purpose was to show unity to Saddam, so he knew we wouldn't back down. If you read many of the statements from that day, from both Republicans and Democrats, you will see that they all expected Bush to use it as a last resort, and that they expected that if military force was necessary, what they had in mind was airstrikes and missiles, not invasion, which is why I took exception to Dixie's "it was a resolution to "go into Iraq."

Yes, we all suspected deep down what the resolution REALLY was, nod nod, wink wink, but I have no tolerance for the constant rewriting of history that has gone on. It was NOT a resolution for war, as it is now commonly referred to.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

"McCain advocated doubling down and deepening U.S. involvement in the Iraq quagmire long before President George W. Bush signed on to the policy. "

Which turned out to be the RIGHT thing to do.

"Apparently still thirsting for revenge, Cold War-style, McCain advocated kicking Russia out of the G-8 group of industrial countries even before the recent conflict in Georgia."

Right....'thirsting for revenge'... couldn't be that he understood what was going on between Russia and Georgia, the hostilities between the two. Couldn't be that he understood the threats Russia was making due to the proposed pipelines connecting Caspian oil to the Turkish pipelines via Georgia. Couldn't be because Russia has reverted from their efforts at democracy and now have slipped into a dictatorship under Putin. No... it must be that McCain wanted revenge for the Cold War that the US won.

"And after the conflict erupted, McCain—apparently overlooking the fact that the reckless Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili started it—made bellicose statements toward Russia and proposed that NATO rethink its April 2008 decision not to give Georgia a path toward membership in the alliance. "

LMAO... right, the Russians building up tanks on their border, issuing citizenship to the breakaway regions citizenship... we'll ignore that and the fact that Georgia's best troops were in Iraq.... Russia baited the Georgian president and he was dumb enough to take it. Georgia should be allowed into NATO.... as should the Ukraine.

"The conflict, of course, dramatically illustrated that admitting a country with such a rash leader into the alliance and guaranteeing its security by treaty could drag the United States into an unneeded conflict with a nuclear-armed great power; it also demonstrated that the faraway United States could do little to effectively defend a nation in close proximity to Russia against overwhelming Russian local military superiority."

Right... just send them back to be a slave state of the Soviet empire. Allow Russia to annex part of Georgia. Keep the energy demands of Europe under the boot of Russia. Great idea.

"Obama, although less experienced than McCain in national security matters, seems to have better judgment and instincts. "

Right... so when hostilities were at their peak... McCain said to add troops and continue, Obama said to get out. McCains plan worked. Obamas would have been a nightmare. Trying to pull out our forces as hostilities were at their highest. GREAT insight by Obama.

.

Nice of you to once again play defeatist.... 'what is likely a temporary lull in violence'??? Its almost as if you can't wait for a cival war to break out.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Were an idiot? You're witless leader has us bogged down in an immoral war in which he lied to the American public and which witless fools like you have supported and in which 100's of billions in treasure and tens of thousands of lives have been wasted. We cannot possibly win a war with an ambigeous open ended strategic objective. We cannot possibly win in Iraq, we can only set up a stable government and LEAVE. Iraqi's don't give a flying fuck about your home boy, redneck, southern niave tae, hillbilly hard right extremist politics and you certainly don't speak for the majority of Americans who WANT US THE FUCK OUT OF THERE!

Funny how the left constantly worries about the 100's of billions being spent on the Iraq war, but not on the 100's billions we ship to foreign countries for oil simply because we refuse to use our own resources. Because as we all know, Russia, Venezuela and Iran all have better environmental controls than the US.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I remember that one; there is nothing in there about "going into Iraq."

You stupid lying fuck. It has occurred to me with this campaign that this is basically what you guys do: just keep repeating BS until it's true. I have no doubt that in a year's time, it will be accepted & unchallengable that Sarah Palin sold her plane on eBay, fired her chef & boldly stood up against the "Bridge to Nowhere."

It's what you do. It's all that you do.

Just for clarification.... she stated that she "put it on ebay".... which she did. It did not attract a buyer there and they in turn sold it to an Alaskan businessman. Her statement did imply that it was sold there, but it was technically accurate.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Get real. If you think for one second anyone who voted for (or against) the resolution did not understand full well that it would be used to invade, then you are even more delusional than he whom you debate.

Yes it is worded vary carefully. The acronym for that is CYA. But each and every legislator who signed off on that resolution KNEW that invasion would follow. (as were those to opposed it - which was their reason for opposing it.) Anyone who says they were not aware of the consequences of the resolution, or were "hoping it would not come to invasion" is the real liar.

You can point at the wording of the document all you want and lie to yourself. Or you can admit to the reality of the situation. At the time of the declaration the vast majority of Americans wanted to go after Hussein. Congress followed popular opinion and gave Bush what he needed to invade, KNOWING full well that the "permission" they handed Bush would be used, and the phrases calling for diplomatic solutions were as empty as their collective vote-seeking heads.

The bolded part is EXACTLY why the War Powers Act has to be eliminated. Because this is EXACTLY what the idiot politicians will pull when it is used. 'Oh no, we didn't know he would actually go to war, we just said if necessary blah blah blah'

They need to either declare war or not. Period.

 

[Cancel7]

No, I couldn't believe the chef thing, and it IS pathological. There is no reason whatsoever to lie about something like that.

Her speech was full of lies, big & small. But we're not supposed to focus on her now, because it's "backfiring." We're supposed to leave that "poor, innocent woman" (as Sean Hannity called her yesterday) alone.

I’m afraid we might be witnessing the first “You go, girlfriend” election. I have never felt so disconnected in my life. I really thought that Palin would be laughed off the stage. A democrat with her ridiculous resume would be.

I am not tapped in to how many married women are miserable. My sister-in-law told me last night that most of her friends are now on the McCain bandwagon. We’re not talking about too many women here, just three of them, but according to polls they are more representative than I am. My sister-in-law who plots ways to get back at my brother because he acts single and rarely comes home at night, her friend patty who is seething at her husband for rejecting her when she gained weight and spends her days figuring out how she can stick him with the laundry, and her other friend whose husband, a chief of the trauma unit at a major NY medical center, left her for a nurse, and whose lifestyle has now been dramatically reduced.
My sister in law believes that Palin is “showing them” and “giving it to him”. I don’t know why she doesn’t just get a job and take control of her own life, but none of them are willing to go quite that far. Lol. I’m totally serious! They will spend their days plotting and scheming on how to get back at their husbands, but get a job and take control of your own destiny? Whoa, let’s not get carried away.

So it’s really time for me to face up to the fact that I have no idea what is going on in the life of whatever constitutes the “average” person. I’m as clueless about them as they are about global warming, poverty, health care, abortion rights, the supreme court, etc. But they may very well pick the next President. Anyway, I’m off for a meeting all the way on Eastern LI now. I can use the break from politics today anyway, and I think I’m going to go to Pindar after the meeting and get drunk.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I’m afraid we might be witnessing the first “You go, girlfriend” election. I have never felt so disconnected in my life. I really thought that Palin would be laughed off the stage. A democrat with her ridiculous resume would be nominated for President.

.

fixed that portion for you.

 

[Onceler]

fixed that portion for you.

The resumes of Palin & Obama are not really comparable, much as people are trying to do just that.

I know, I know - executive experience, which you have summed up nicely as the ability to respond to a forest fire when you hear about it.

And besides, the GOP has shredded Obama from day 1 on the experience question, and it was McCain's campaign until he picked Palin (now, of course, it's "change," with little mention of experience).

 

[uscitizen]

The Bush administration was all about change too.
From bad to worse.