A Theology Question

[Cypress]

Agreed. Like talking about “before” the Big Bang, which means “before” Space-Time began.

People should be clearer about if they were talking about something inside the Universe or outside of it. Like Stretch’s ghost-hunting scam, there’s zero evidence of supernatural phenomena inside the Natural Universe. There’s a reason why stories of magic and miracles diminished in the Industrial Age.

LoL @ ghost hunting scam.

We sometimes try to vastly over estimate the ability of our souped up chimpanzee brains to achieve omniscience.

Our minds cannot even visualize what four spatial dimensions would look like. Three dimensional curved space is virtually impossible to visualize, it always gets depicted graphically in two dimensions

 

[Ross Dolan]

How am I to know that?

I was not asking for what you know...but what you can speculate that would be sufficient. I gave an example of what I would accept in the other direction. I cannot think of anything that would be sufficient in this one. I cannot even imagine a scenario that would be sufficient.

Just wondering if your imagination was able to come up with something.

You are unable to speak about the content of my mind in this area. If that is your feeling then fine.

Nor would I try.

To be quite honest I probably would have settled for a simple "feeling of connection" to God when I was in my darkest hours. But those days are long gone.

My standards are perhaps harder, then.

Here's a possible miracle that I would accept: the total elimination of SCRUPULOSITY as a disease my miraculous means. (ie not medicine).

I went through a period of scrupulosity that almost destroyed me during my very early 20's. I was a Catholic and went to confession EVERY DAY...and often went through Perfect Acts of Contrition several times a day in addition.

With the help of my confessor, I was able to get through it. It would be nice (if there is a god) that the god would make that particular mental disorder go the way of the dinosaurs.)

The reason I like that example is because scrupulosity is a disease in which someone's faith becomes a horror. I've met people who suffer this who truly believe in and love the Lord but who live in abject terror all the time that they are blaspheming or offending God. It's a mental illness in the OCD spectrum and probably related to serotonin systems or some such.

Yes, I know...and agree.

If God wished to communicate with me perhaps he could have cured my scrupulosity before it effectively destroyed my desire for faith. But apparently God is OK with some people suffering for their belief in Him. That makes no theological sense to me and as such represents a grotesque logic failure for the "God Hypothesis".

Thank you for sharing that. I prefer not to comment on it.

 

[Ross Dolan]

I think that it is OK for God to be largely "supernatural" but clearly He has (in the view of the believer) a NATURAL COMPONENT which can be experienced by some and hence "testable". Is it real or is it the believers' imagination?

Any theist who ever tells me he/she KNOWS there is a GOD because of divine revelation, I ask, "How do you know you are not deluding yourself?"

I have never, ever gotten a response that makes sense.

I can speculate that it is delusional, but there is no way I can know.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Correlation says nothing about causation.

Yes we all know that.

But it doesn't change the FACT that testing of any relationship scientifically is done by testing against the null hypothesis.

Look at this graph:

Can you tell me if these are actually related by a slope?

I'm not asking for causal relationships, but a causal relationship will have at it's basis a correlation. (Not all correlations are causation, but causation would require correlation).

THIS is what I've been talking about all along. Is there even a basis for assuming X and Y are somehow related?

(The answer is, obviously, "no, the slope is indifferentiable from zero" which you can see from the F-test and p-value.)

I also think it's ridiculous to believe that all questions can be answered or analyzed by graphing them and having R do a correlation test.

But it's the same REASONING. I'm not graphing God in any way. I'm just explaining how science is done and how inference is conducted. The graph is a great example because it explains the null hypothesis etc.

(Kudos on knowing about R, though. Do you use it much? I vastly prefer JMP but R is good for a freebie and I use it to process data for SNA analyses as well).

 

[Melchizedek = Michael]

My most fervent wish is that an afterlife does not exist
because everlasting life in any environment
could not possibly be anything
but the most stultifyingly gruesome hell.

Eternity is a long fucking time.

So you prefer to go extinct?

 

[Melchizedek = Michael]

Any theist who ever tells me he/she KNOWS there is a GOD because of divine revelation, I ask, "How do you know you are not deluding yourself?"

I have never, ever gotten a response that makes sense.

I can speculate that it is delusional, but there is no way I can know.

Because they weren't searching for God! God came searching for them!
But you can't comprehend that,so you search for an option for it not to be true

 

[Melchizedek = Michael]

LoL @ ghost hunting scam.

We sometimes try to vastly over estimate the ability of our souped up chimpanzee brains to achieve omniscience.

Our minds cannot even visualize what four spatial dimensions would look like. Three dimensional curved space is virtually impossible to visualize, it always gets depicted graphically in two dimensions

Tap into your Spirit! You can't get by that there's something beyond your flesh controlled mind!
You think you're opened minded but you're not!
Knock and the door will open! You won't knock,your ego can't handle that you might be wrong or that there's something beyond your universe.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Because they weren't searching for God! God came searching for them!
But you can't comprehend that,so you search for an option for it not to be true

You should be thankful God searched for YOU. Many of us were not quite so fortunate. And if he was searching he certainly found a silent way to do it for some of us.

 

[Melchizedek = Michael]

You should be thankful God searched for YOU. Many of us were not quite so fortunate. And if he was searching he certainly found a silent way to do it for some of us.

I am now! But at the time of my Epiphany, I saw it as why are you bothering me! You have millions of volunteers,but yet you draft someone who doesn't want to be involved!
This battle went on for over a year,till I could see I had no option! That God had a stronger will then me.
Then it dawned on me,the genius behind dragging in someone like me! I knew I wasn't searching for God,quite the opposite I was searching for what was best for me,me,me!
That's where my Faith comes from, that I know I am not on the path I would have chosen!

 

[Melchizedek = Michael]

You should be thankful God searched for YOU. Many of us were not quite so fortunate. And if he was searching he certainly found a silent way to do it for some of us.

A silent way for all of you!
"Many are called few are Chosen"!

 

[Ross Dolan]

Because they weren't searching for God! God came searching for them!
But you can't comprehend that,so you search for an option for it not to be true

There is no way I can know...but apparently you think you KNOW.

How do you KNOW, MM? How do you know some god came searching for them...rather than that they found this god because of searching.

I suspect (not KNOW) that if a person is will to search hard enough for Zeus...he/she will make contact with him.

 

[Ross Dolan]

A silent way for all of you!
"Many are called few are Chosen"!

Which brings me to my question, MM:

How do you KNOW you are not deluding yourself?

 

[Tinkerpeach]

I am now! But at the time of my Epiphany, I saw it as why are you bothering me! You have millions of volunteers,but yet you draft someone who doesn't want to be involved!
This battle went on for over a year,till I could see I had no option! That God had a stronger will then me.
Then it dawned on me,the genius behind dragging in someone like me! I knew I wasn't searching for God,quite the opposite I was searching for what was best for me,me,me!
That's where my Faith comes from, that I know I am not on the path I would have chosen!

I was saved when I was 14 but walked away from God.

I don’t remember what I prayed at the time but I do remember the pastor saying that since I accepted Jesus He will never leave me.

Over the next 36 years I became a devout atheist and I loved nothing better than to debate with Christians and prove them wrong.

So God collapsed my life to the point where I was standing at the edge of the abyss and the Holy Spirit came to me and I realized what I had done by walking away from Jesus.

When I look back now at my life I can see all the times Jesus helped me, even after what I did He never left me.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

I was saved when I was 14 but walked away from God.

I don’t remember what I prayed at the time but I do remember the pastor saying that since I accepted Jesus He will never leave me.

Over the next 36 years I became a devout atheist and I loved nothing better than to debate with Christians and prove them wrong.

So God collapsed my life to the point where I was standing at the edge of the abyss and the Holy Spirit came to me and I realized what I had done by walking away from Jesus.

When I look back now at my life I can see all the times Jesus helped me, even after what I did He never left me.

The concept of "Once Saved, Always Saved" seems to be unique to some sects of Christianity. It is good that your faith ultimately brought you peace and happiness. For some of us that same faith did NOT bring peace or happiness but carried with it a sense of terror and dread.

Ultimately since I wasn't feeling God's presence and my adherence to the faith was destroying me I had to give up my faith.

You should definitely enjoy yours. But not all people have the same experience as you. Would that it were otherwise.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

The concept of "Once Saved, Always Saved" seems to be unique to some sects of Christianity. It is good that your faith ultimately brought you peace and happiness. For some of us that same faith did NOT bring peace or happiness but carried with it a sense of terror and dread.

Ultimately since I wasn't feeling God's presence and my adherence to the faith was destroying me I had to give up my faith.

You should definitely enjoy yours. But not all people have the same experience as you. Would that it were otherwise.

I would be happy to pray for you if you like brother

 

[Saint Guinefort]

I would be happy to pray for you if you like brother

I don't want your prayers. I appreciate your offer since it is meaningful to you, but my faith-journey is largely where I want it to be.

 

[Cypress]

Thanks, I appreciate your thoughtful dialogue. Man may be the only species that understands that it will die. That knowledge, IMHO, has driven a need to make sense of the life we do have here. I'm very comfortable that I'm going to die, and I believe I will simply be gone. I wasn't here for billions of years, and I won't be here in the billions of years that follow. I think it makes this life more meaningful for me. My political and social beliefs come, I think from an empathy that makes me yearn for better for everyone. That's an honest statement. I wish I could always live like that, but sometimes I don't. But I think this is it for me, so I'm going to make the most of it, because it won't last forever. If I'm wrong, that's icing on the cake. If a truly loving God exists, then hell does not.

I used to dialogue with a wonderful man who was a minister in a church in KC. He said that his belief could be summed up with one statement. 'God is love'. I may not believe in God, but I know that''s a person who wants the same things I do. If I come across as a bit of a hardliner, it's because the bad aspects of religion are the ones that always get the attention. Sorry for the digression, but I feel like you can understand where I'm coming from, and I certainly understand where you are coming from. Thanks again.

I can totally understand that perspective.

 

[Cypress]

Yes we all know that.

But it doesn't change the FACT that testing of any relationship scientifically is done by testing against the null hypothesis.

Look at this graph:

Can you tell me if these are actually related by a slope?

I'm not asking for causal relationships, but a causal relationship will have at it's basis a correlation. (Not all correlations are causation, but causation would require correlation).

THIS is what I've been talking about all along. Is there even a basis for assuming X and Y are somehow related?

(The answer is, obviously, "no, the slope is indifferentiable from zero" which you can see from the F-test and p-value.)



But it's the same REASONING. I'm not graphing God in any way. I'm just explaining how science is done and how inference is conducted. The graph is a great example because it explains the null hypothesis etc.

(Kudos on knowing about R, though. Do you use it much? I vastly prefer JMP but R is good for a freebie and I use it to process data for SNA analyses as well).

Yes, I've used R.


I don't think all answers can be found by making a graph and asking R to do a correlation test.


The answer to why the Big Bang happened isn't going to be found in an R graph. I personally found as much truth in the Dao de Jing as I found in the R users manual.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Yes, I've used R.


I don't think all answers can be found by making a graph and asking R to do a correlation test.

NOR DO I. The point being that this is how inference works in science. That was my primary point all along.

It is "hypothesis testing 101".

The answer to why the Big Bang happened isn't going to be found in an R graph. I personally found as much truth in the Dao de Jing as I foundation in the R users manual.

You seem to be fighting understanding my point. My point was NEVER the graph.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Yes, I've used R.

I don't think all answers can be found by making a graph and asking R to do a correlation test.

The answer to why the Big Bang happened isn't going to be found in an R graph. I personally found as much truth in the Dao de Jing as I found in the R users manual.

Agreed.

Not naming names, but some people think that because they can draw a graph that they can prove the existence or non-existence of supernatural forces. That strikes me as irrational since the two things are completely different.