A Theology Question

IBDaMann said:
Sure, Terry, the laws of nature
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I bet if you really put your mind to it, you could fly, Sybil. Just like Tinkerbell.

All you have to do is let go and believe!

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Manfred Mason said:
You're looking for every possible way to not believe me! Bye
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You are saying that a GOD that made the Earth, its moon, the other planets in our solar system...and the more than 200 billion other stars that make up our galaxy...and the trillions of other galaxies, each filled with billions of other stars...and spread them over an area so vast that light takes billions of years to traverse...chose YOU for special treatment. YOU are saying that the GOD sought you out despite your objections to this special treatment.

And you are now upset because I am questioning the possibility that you may just be deluding yourself with this notion.

Is it your contention that your notion of special treatment by the GOD is so reasonable...and my question of whether you might be deluding yourself is so unreasonable...

...that even the mere suggestion of it is reprehensible and insulting?

Do you suppose I owe you an apology for the question, because any reasonable, intelligent, courteous person would never question such a story?
 
IBDaMann said:
Your bizarre belief that geologists are somehow omniscient is a 100% testament to your gullibility. Why would any rational adult believe that a "geologist" somehow knows the unobserved past?

The problem is you. I'm not the one claiming to have faith in an omniscient clergy.


Too funny! Quincunx believes that the past is shaped by what people believe in the present. When forensics convinces a jury, reality shifts to make the prosecutor's case the absolute truth.

Brilliant!
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Of all the sciences geology is easily the most accessible for folks like you with limited skills or abilities. They offer "rocks for jocks" classes for a reason. It is thus surprising that you know nothing about geology.
 
IBDaMann said:
I see you take great pride in being a moron. At least now, when you are mocked and ridiculed, you'll know why.

I just explained to you why science cannot say anything about the unobserved past and you were apparently too stupid to understand. So instead of seeking clarification from someone who knows much more than you do, you feigned indignance and decided to remain a scientifically illiterate moron.

After your previous post, I had two choices:

1. Mock the shit out of you for the stupid things you write, or
2. try to help you with some good info.

I chose the latter. You were quick to show me the error of my ways. I won't make that mistake again. I'll just go with option A.


How fucking stupid are you to think it does? Wait, I'll answer that for you. You were told to believe that ... and you OBEYED. You have no idea what science even is. You just go around believing whatever your thought-masters tell you to believe and you push back on anyone who tries to help you.

That's really smart.


Nope. Nothing about the unobserved past has been "determined" or "established.". You have to be stupid and gullible to believe that, especially when you know that it is all merely speculation that changes completely every year dependening on whose speculation is in vogue at the moment.

Wait a moment... do you even realize that the speculative timeline constantly changes? Wait, that's right, you think that it is science that was mathematically calculated and bam, they were done, right?

Too funny.

Hey, why don't you explain to JPP how you believe science establishes the unobserved past. I'm sure it will be informative.


Nope. There is nobody who knows this. There are only people who speculate this. I happen to be one of them. However, nobody has ever travelled through time and verified the age of the earth. That is an absolute requirement for science. Everything is mere speculation until verified.
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This is Einstein's letter to a little girl who wrote to ask him if scientists pray.

January 24, 1936

Dear Phyllis,

I will attempt to reply to your question as simply as I can. Here is my answer:

Scientists believe that every occurrence, including the affairs of human beings, is due to the laws of nature. Therefore a scientist cannot be inclined to believe that the course of events can be influenced by prayer, that is, by a supernaturally manifested wish.

However, we must concede that our actual knowledge of these forces is imperfect, so that in the end the belief in the existence of a final, ultimate spirit rests on a kind of faith. Such belief remains widespread even with the current achievements in science.

But also, everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that some spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe, one that is vastly superior to that of man. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is surely quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive.

With cordial greetings,

your A. Einstein
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On this thread I have been expressing basically what Einstein is saying.

We need to be humble about how far science can take us, and need to acknowledge there is a mystery behind why the natural laws exist, why there is a rational mathmatical order to reality, and the mystery of where it all comes from.
 
Cypress said:
On this thread I have been expressing basically what Einstein is saying.

We need to be humble about how far science can take us, and need to acknowledge there is a mystery behind why the natural laws exist, why there is a rational mathmatical order to reality, and where it all comes from.
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You choose to think of the universe as mysterious.
 
Cypress said:
On this thread I have been expressing basically what Einstein is saying.

We need to be humble about how far science can take us, and need to acknowledge there is a mystery behind why the natural laws exist, why there is a rational mathmatical order to reality, and the mystery of where it all comes from.
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So none of us should bother to analyze or question the received knowledge?

I'm not dissing Einstein (although that is what you will take away from this), but rather that Einstein is not God. While he was very good with his specialty of Relativity he was not the greatest mathematician, he failed to grasp Quantum and he wasn't perfection.

If someone disagrees with Einstein on philosophy it seem perfectly reasonable.
 
Quincunx said:
Cypress said:
On this thread I have been expressing basically what Einstein is saying.

We need to be humble about how far science can take us, and need to acknowledge there is a mystery behind why the natural laws exist, why there is a rational mathmatical order to reality, and the mystery of where it all comes from.
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So none of us should bother to analyze or question the received knowledge?

I'm not dissing Einstein (although that is what you will take away from this), but rather that Einstein is not God. While he was very good with his specialty of Relativity he was not the greatest mathematician, he failed to grasp Quantum and he wasn't perfection.

If someone disagrees with Einstein on philosophy it seem perfectly reasonable.
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That’s not what he’s saying, Perry. For someone who claims to be so smart and know everything, you seem to be too dense to know much, sir.
 
Doc Dutch said:
That’s not what he’s saying, Perry. For someone who claims to be so smart and know everything, you seem to be too dense to know much, sir.
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I think where Einstein is coming from, and which I agree with, is that certain questions that probably go beyond science. Why there are natural laws, why reality has a rational mathmatical order, and where do they come from?

We are never going to have definitive answers to that.
 
Cypress said:
I think where Einstein is coming from, and which I agree with, is that certain questions that probably go beyond science. Why there are natural laws, why reality has a rational mathmatical order, and where do they come from?

We are never going to have definitive answers to that.
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Agreed. Science, by definition, is concerned with the natural universe. Not magic, ghosts or the supernatural. Only an idiot would try to use the scientific method to disprove anything beyond the Natural Universe.

Not sure about never, but it would take the ability to pierce the natural universe and look outside to obtain those answers.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Agreed. Science, by definition, is concerned with the natural universe. Not magic, ghosts or the supernatural. Only an idiot would try to use the scientific method to disprove anything beyond the Natural Universe.

Not sure about never, but it would take the ability to pierce the natural universe and look outside to obtain those answers.
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I guess one could speculate that the natural laws are eternal, existing outside of time and space, existing in the void even before the Big Bang. But that's almost a quasi-religious view in itself, which is why I think this was all on Einstein's mind consistently through his life
 
Cypress said:
I guess one could speculate that the natural laws are eternal, existing outside of time and space, existing in the void even before the Big Bang. But that's almost a quasi-religious view in itself, which is why I think this was all on Einstein's mind consistently through his life
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Agreed that it would be a matter of faith, not science since science says all those rules began after the Big Bang.
 
Cypress said:
That's not what either I or Einstein said
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Nor did my post address Einstein's comment. I was addressing YOUR comment. You invoked Einstein to warn us not to overextend our positions in re science to answer deeper questions.

I was making a comment on YOUR apparent position that Einstein is somehow someone I am required to accept as an authority on this topic. I merely pointed out that I disagree with that position.
 
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