A Theology Question

Concart said:
The question of life in other solar systems. We may not be able to answer it today, but with the proper technology, we can answer it eventually. The question of whether God exists can never be answered by science. It is impossible by definition.
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One, as I said above...WE CANNOT ANSWER IT.

Not now...which is what we are talking about.

As for whether any gods exist...how do you know it cannot be answered at some point. If there are gods...and those gods have made all of what now exists...surely they can reveal to science that they exist.
 
Cypress said:
What mysteries or unanswered questions about life and the universe require me to invoke the possibility of a pink polka-dotted cyclops living in my garage?
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The example I gave about the missing tools in your garage for instance. Could it not be something supernatural living in your garage?

Religion is invoked and predicated on those mysteries.
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And often times on much lesser mysteries. "Why did my child die of leukemia?" "Why do good things happen for bad people?" "Why is there fossils on top of Mt. Everest that are sea creatures?"

Religion is invoked on the most quotidian things imaginable, as well as the larger ones. That's kind of the way religion is used.

I don't think anyone knows why the universe is finest tuned, but many of us have blind guesses and suppositions.
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If it weren't fine tuned it wouldn't exist. There are an infinite number of possible non-existent universes. We just happen to catch the one that can support our existence. Without it we wouldn't exist to ask the question.

I'm comfortable saying I don't have a clue.
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And I totally agree with that position. But, again, bringing it back to the current discussion: that is possible to have as a position while simultaneously holding the position that I don't believe whatever ideas you may come up with to answer it.

It is possible to NOT believe in God as well as simultaneously saying "I don't know what the origin of the universe is".
 
Isn’t God ultimately just an alien species that has been around so long that his technology has increased to the point where He can create matter out of nothing?

How far will human technology have advanced in a hundred billion years?
 
Frank Apisa said:
One, as I said above...WE CANNOT ANSWER IT.

Not now...which is what we are talking about.

As for whether any gods exist...how do you know it cannot be answered at some point. If there are gods...and those gods have made all of what now exists...surely they can reveal to science that they exist.
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God cannot be measured in the natural world. Ever. So science cannot posit God. By definition.
 
Concart said:
Atheism is not a belief
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A point of debate, mainly because it’s a sliding scale defining exactly what an atheist is. Doe they believe “when you’re dead, you’re dead” or do they believe they’ll transcend to a different plane…one with no old geezers on thrones?

You can fall back on the “disbelief” BS, but it’s still believing as fact something without facts. However, I do believe part of the answer can be found in understanding the origins of the Big Bang.
 
Tinkerpeach said:
Isn’t God ultimately just an alien species that has been around so long that his technology has increased to the point where He can create matter out of nothing?

How far will human technology have advanced in a hundred billion years?
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Possible, but if other civilizations existed, even advanced ones, they would leave detectable markers. Unless you are postulating only the one super-advanced over lil’ ol’ us, then there’d be a range of civilizations. Some more detectable than others.

OTOH, what if the super advanced beings are us, from one hundred billion years on the future? Wouldn’t we be wise to do as they say? How would we tell the difference is they were really hostile space aliens claiming to be our future selves? Wouldn’t we just end up being fucked?
 
Concart said:
God cannot be measured in the natural world. Ever. So science cannot posit God. By definition.
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Are you saying that a GOD that was able to make the planet Earth, the sun, the other planets and moons of our solar system, the over 2,000,000,000 other stars in our galaxy, and the trillions of other galaxies in what we humans call "the universe"...CANNOT figure out a way to reveal itself to the scientific community????

You are just kidding, right?

One other thing...EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS...is a part of the natural world...whether we humans, the present day dominant species on a nondescript speck of dust orbiting a nondescript star in a nondescript galaxy among trillions of galaxies...can detect it with our relatively puny sensing equipment or not.

If it exists...it is part of the natural world, even though we are not capable of seeing how it is.

IF THERE IS A GOD...A CREATOR GOD...it is part of the natural world. It is just that any such GOD existed a bit longer than other parts of the natural world...and IT may be a little more powerful.
 
Doc Dutch said:
A point of debate, mainly because it’s a sliding scale defining exactly what an atheist is. Doe they believe “when you’re dead, you’re dead” or do they believe they’ll transcend to a different plane…one with no old geezers on thrones?

You can fall back on the “disbelief” BS, but it’s still believing as fact something without facts. However, I do believe part of the answer can be found in understanding the origins of the Big Bang.
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If an atheist, AS MANY ATHEISTS DO, asserts "there are no gods"...that atheist IS asserting a "belief" (a blind guess)...and is a "believer." That atheist is a believer as much as any theist.
 
Frank Apisa said:
If an atheist, AS MANY ATHEISTS DO, asserts "there are no gods"...that atheist IS asserting a "belief" (a blind guess)...and is a "believer." That atheist is a believer as much as any theist.
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Agreed. Polar opposites. The only logical position is agnostics, something atheists refuse to admit since their’s is an emotional and spiritual position, not a logical one.
 
Quincunx said:
The example I gave about the missing tools in your garage for instance. Could it not be something supernatural living in your garage?



And often times on much lesser mysteries. "Why did my child die of leukemia?" "Why do good things happen for bad people?" "Why is there fossils on top of Mt. Everest that are sea creatures?"

Religion is invoked on the most quotidian things imaginable, as well as the larger ones. That's kind of the way religion is used.



If it weren't fine tuned it wouldn't exist. There are an infinite number of possible non-existent universes. We just happen to catch the one that can support our existence. Without it we wouldn't exist to ask the question.



And I totally agree with that position. But, again, bringing it back to the current discussion: that is possible to have as a position while simultaneously holding the position that I don't believe whatever ideas you may come up with to answer it.

It is possible to NOT believe in God as well as simultaneously saying "I don't know what the origin of the universe is".
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We know what lukemia is and why it kills.

Missing tools in my garage are not a metaphysical mystery for the ages, they are missing because I misplaced them.

None of these mundane examples approaches the metaphysical questions I have highlighted.


I agree, even if you don't know why the Big Bang happened, it doesn't mean you have to accept an Abrahamic God. The origin of all reality could be the Tao, or the universe could have blinked into existence for absolutely no reason at all.

Nobody knows.

I just don't think it's a good analogy to compare belief in an ultimate creative organizing principle underlying reality to belief in pink polka-dotted unicorns.
 
Frank Apisa said:
If an atheist, AS MANY ATHEISTS DO, asserts "there are no gods"...that atheist IS asserting a "belief" (a blind guess)...and is a "believer." That atheist is a believer as much as any theist.
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Cypress said:
We know what lukemia is and why it kills.

Missing tools in my garage are not a metaphysical mystery for the ages, they are missing because I misplaced them.

None of these mundane examples approaches the metaphysical questions I have highlighted.


I agree, even if you don't know why the Big Bang happened, it doesn't mean you have to accept an Abrahamic God. The origin of all reality could be the Tao, or the universe could have blinked into existence for absolutely no reason at all.

Nobody knows.

I just don't think it's a good analogy to compare belief in an ultimate creative organizing principle underlying reality to belief in pink polka-dotted unicorns.
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It doesn’t mean you have to accept it but you should be open to the possibility.

If your tools are missing that means you don’t know where they are which means it’s an unexplained event

If you can’t explain the origin of the universe or life it’s an unexplained event.

In science all possible explanations remain until disproven
 
Frank Apisa said:
Are you saying that a GOD that was able to make the planet Earth, the sun, the other planets and moons of our solar system, the over 2,000,000,000 other stars in our galaxy, and the trillions of other galaxies in what we humans call "the universe"...CANNOT figure out a way to reveal itself to the scientific community????

You are just kidding, right?

One other thing...EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS...is a part of the natural world...whether we humans, the present day dominant species on a nondescript speck of dust orbiting a nondescript star in a nondescript galaxy among trillions of galaxies...can detect it with our relatively puny sensing equipment or not.

If it exists...it is part of the natural world, even though we are not capable of seeing how it is.

IF THERE IS A GOD...A CREATOR GOD...it is part of the natural world. It is just that any such GOD existed a bit longer than other parts of the natural world...and IT may be a little more powerful.
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The entity you describe could certainly reveal itself. Don't you find it in the least bit odd that God hasn't done that? He supposedly talked to a couple of guys, but those stories don't pass the smell test they are so utterly inane.

I don't believe in the supernatural. That's my nature. But there is no evidence, so belief in a supernatural God is entirely faith based. That's fine, my objections come when faith is introduced as science in the classroom, because it is not. Intelligent Design is not an alternate theory. It is a hocus pocus story, nothing more.

So if the God you described exists, he either a) doesn't care about us, b) is messing with us or c) both of the above. For all we know, we are a part of a science experiment by some junior high kid in another universe, and when they clean up, we'll be tossed in the trash.

I just can't see where God is a necessary part of the equation, and I don't take on faith that God exists. All of us have our own beliefs. Ours differ. Man of Science not Man of Faith (I miss Lost). We only know what we experience and if you think, for example, an ant colony isn't aware of anything outside of what they do. But we know there is a whole universe of things they never experience, right here on earth. Could we be someones ant colony? Sure. But that someone is not a God to be worshiped, it's a natural phenomenon we don't have the capability of measuring or understanding.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Agreed. A point that came up elsewhere on why American atheists were always slamming Christianity and rarely Judaism, Islam or other religions.
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I think to a certain extent, moderates and liberals will be deferential and respectful of Jewish beliefs, Islamic belief Hindu belief, and Buddhist belief. No how much they criticize things that were written in the Old Testament, aka Hebrew Bible, they generally won't complain about it to Jewish people.
 
Tinkerpeach said:
It doesn’t mean you have to accept it but you should be open to the possibility.

If your tools are missing that means you don’t know where they are which means it’s an unexplained event

If you can’t explain the origin of the universe or life it’s an unexplained event.

In science all possible explanations remain until disproven
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I don't have to accept the possibility of things that are testable. There is no plausible evidence of the Loch Ness monster, Yeti, or big foot
 
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