A view point.

Granule said:
What IS the "be all end all of logical and rational happenings"? when you think about it, there's no such thing.

See, my biggest problem with your way of thinking is that you think it all ends with what YOU think you know. I've never run into a more narcissistic way of thinking. In terms of religion, YOUR reality is nowhere near MY reality.
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That's a typical reaction of many "faithful"....any rational questioning of scripture is condemned as being "self centered". I don't understand how using your brains to figure out something is cause for personal attack and condemnation. The point of the OP is EXACTLY demonstrated in your last sentence....your "reality" regarding religion is no more or less "real" than someone else's. Case in point....you had entire continents of people who had a thriving civilizations and religions before, during and after hearing about the New Testament....and vice versa. That is why you need honest observation...which fortunately or unfortunately for the individual...may mean a momentary abandonment of a particular faith.
 
Miss Margot Frank said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Says who?
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"Before Abraham I Am"
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So the scripture is it's own proof and justification? That type of mentality has been used to justify a LOT of bad actions in the world. And if you question the validity of any part of the text, then what? Remember, there were thriving civilizations with their own religions long before and during the Old and New Testament that never heard of such. That is why you need honest observation...which fortunately or unfortunately for the individual...may mean a momentary abandonment of a particular faith.
 
Let's see. Jesus was half God and half Man. Anybody in the 21st century believe THAT?
Jesus dies. Is dead for 3 days. Awakens, walks around for awhile. Then floats off into outer space like a hydrogen balloon. Anybody in the 21st century believe THAT?

How about that Pharaohs and Kings were descendants of the Gods? Plausible? Or just made up bullshit?

You could read the Jefferson Bible and skip all the Harry Potter shit and just read the Philosophy of Jesus.

"The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, commonly referred to as the Jefferson Bible, is one of two religious works constructed by Thomas Jefferson. The first, The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth, was completed in 1804, but no copies exist today.[1] The second, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, was completed in 1820 by cutting and pasting with a razor and glue numerous sections from the New Testament as extractions of the doctrine of Jesus. Jefferson's condensed composition excludes all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels that contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages that portray Jesus as divine"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible
 
Taichiliberal said:
So the scripture is it's own proof and justification? That type of mentality has been used to justify a LOT of bad actions in the world. And if you question the validity of any part of the text, then what? Remember, there were thriving civilizations with their own religions long before and during the Old and New Testament that never heard of such. That is why you need honest observation...which fortunately or unfortunately for the individual...may mean a momentary abandonment of a particular faith.
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Can't help non-believers,you're on your own.
 
Jack said:
Let's see. Jesus was half God and half Man. Anybody in the 21st century believe THAT?
Jesus dies. Is dead for 3 days. Awakens, walks around for awhile. Then floats off into outer space like a hydrogen balloon. Anybody in the 21st century believe THAT?

How about that Pharaohs and Kings were descendants of the Gods? Plausible? Or just made up bullshit?

You could read the Jefferson Bible and skip all the Harry Potter shit and just read the Philosophy of Jesus.

"The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, commonly referred to as the Jefferson Bible, is one of two religious works constructed by Thomas Jefferson. The first, The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth, was completed in 1804, but no copies exist today.[1] The second, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, was completed in 1820 by cutting and pasting with a razor and glue numerous sections from the New Testament as extractions of the doctrine of Jesus. Jefferson's condensed composition excludes all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels that contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages that portray Jesus as divine"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible
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Anyone adding or subtracting scripture commits abomination.
Jesus is LORD
 
Taichiliberal said:
That mentality resulted in the Crusades, the Inquisition, the travesties wrought upon Native Americans. That's an honest observation. One must examine the good and the bad that derives from "belief".
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Cruelty, murder, depravity are part of human nature irrespective of religion.

Scientists and the tools of science were used in the Holocaust, the horror of chemical warfare in the trenches of the Great War, in the development and use of weapons of mass destruction, fire bombing of cities, and the development and implemention of torture and"enhanced interrogation".

For all the horrible things done in the name of religion and science, I try to remember that human nature and history is three dimensional and humans are not caricatures.
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It doesn't hurt to remember that devout and pious Christians, aka Quakers, New England Congregationalists, etc were among the most proactive and effective abolitionists in the anti-slavery movement.
 
Miss Margot Frank said:
In this situation yes,where does he get off editing the Bible!
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Jefferson took the Message of Jesus, and uncoupled it from the Magic and Occult. TJ synthesized it into a Philosophy. No supernatural stuff to fluff it up.
Other Religions have 'Prophets', what is so empty about Christianity that they can't accept Jesus as a Prophet?
 
Jack said:
Jefferson took the Message of Jesus, and uncoupled it from the Magic and Occult. TJ synthesized it into a Philosophy. No supernatural stuff to fluff it up.
Other Religions have 'Prophets', what is so empty about Christianity that they can't accept Jesus as a Prophet?
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Revelation 22:19
 
Miss Margot Frank said:
Revelation 22:19
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Can you say the word 'Renaissance'.

"The Renaissance was a fervent period of European cultural, artistic, political and economic “rebirth” following the Middle Ages. Generally described as taking place from the 14th century to the 17th century, the Renaissance promoted the rediscovery of classical philosophy, literature and art. Some of the greatest thinkers, authors, statesmen, scientists and artists in human history thrived during this era, while global exploration opened up new lands and cultures to European commerce. The Renaissance is credited with bridging the gap between the Middle Ages and modern-day civilization."
https://www.history.com/topics/renaissance/renaissance

"From Darkness to Light:
During the Middle Ages, a period that took place between the fall of ancient Rome in 476 A.D. and the beginning of the 14th century, Europeans made few advances in science and art.
Also known as the “Dark Ages,” the era is often branded as a time of war, ignorance, famine and pandemics such as the Black Death."

This is 1,000 years of Christian rule.
 
Jack said:
Can you say the word 'Renaissance'.

"The Renaissance was a fervent period of European cultural, artistic, political and economic “rebirth” following the Middle Ages. Generally described as taking place from the 14th century to the 17th century, the Renaissance promoted the rediscovery of classical philosophy, literature and art. Some of the greatest thinkers, authors, statesmen, scientists and artists in human history thrived during this era, while global exploration opened up new lands and cultures to European commerce. The Renaissance is credited with bridging the gap between the Middle Ages and modern-day civilization."
https://www.history.com/topics/renaissance/renaissance

"From Darkness to Light:
During the Middle Ages, a period that took place between the fall of ancient Rome in 476 A.D. and the beginning of the 14th century, Europeans made few advances in science and art.
Also known as the “Dark Ages,” the era is often branded as a time of war, ignorance, famine and pandemics such as the Black Death."

This is 1,000 years of Christian rule.
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When Europeans stepped away from the Catholic Church, we got the Renaissance. When they stepped away from religion as a whole, we got the Enlightenment.
 
StoneByStone said:
When Europeans stepped away from the Catholic Church, we got the Renaissance. When they stepped away from religion as a whole, we got the Enlightenment.
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While I am steeped in science and reason, the pendulum can always swing too far one way or the other.

The 18th century Enlightenment then led to the 19th century Romanticism.
Largely because the science, rationalization and progress extolled by the Enlightenment led to the industrial revolution, which in spite of its many benefits to humanity, also led to a dehumanization, collectivization, and monetization of human life. The reaction to the Enlightenment by Romanticism placed an emphasis on individualism, existentialism, emotion, aesthetic, and nature.

I do not think it is any accident that this return to placing the human heart and soul in a place of primacy led to a burst of creativity that arguably led to western civilization’s most creative and productive period in the arts, music, and literature - the Romantic Period.
 
Cypress said:
While I am steeped in science and reason, the pendulum can always swing too far one way or the other.

The 18th century Enlightenment then led to the 19th century Romanticism.
Largely because the science, rationalization and progress extolled by the Enlightenment led to the industrial revolution, which in spite of its many benefits to humanity, also led to a dehumanization, collectivization, and monetization of human life. The reaction to the Enlightenment by Romanticism placed an emphasis on individualism, existentialism, emotion, aesthetic, and nature.

I do not think it is any accident that this return to placing the human heart and soul in a place of primacy led to a burst of creativity that arguably led to western civilization’s most creative and productive period in the arts, music, and literature - the Romantic Period.
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I don't think dehumanization was caused by becoming too secular, I think it was just a result of industrialization giving people a new way to exploit the working-class. After all, during the Middle Ages, we had Feudalism.
The Romantic Period did give us some great art, but so did every period. Europe has always been a holy land of art, even during the Middle Ages. When it comes to the spectrum of religion and science, I think we should be 100% on the side of science.
 
StoneByStone said:
I don't think dehumanization was caused by becoming too secular, I think it was just a result of industrialization giving people a new way to exploit the working-class. After all, during the Middle Ages, we had Feudalism.
The Romantic Period did give us some great art, but so did every period. Europe has always been a holy land of art, even during the Middle Ages. When it comes to the spectrum of religion and science, I think we should be 100% on the side of science.
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The secularization of Europe, I think, came on the heels of the 30 Years War and the religious wars of the 17th century. Prior to the 20th century that was the bloodiest and most consistently violent period of human history. That is what made people reconsider the primacy of fundamentalist religion in their lives, in deeper and more profound ways than anything found in Newton's Principia ...

The premise and result of the Enlightenment was an abiding and unshakable faith in technology, science, progress, which directly resulted in the industrial revolution. Romanticism was a reaction against the commoditization and collectivization of humanity wrought by the onset of industrialization.

Science will never inform or guide one as to ethics, justice or the cultivation of morals and character. Nor will it speak to aesthetics, beauty or the sublime. That all comes from a deeper and inner sense of conscience
 
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My favorite 18th century philosopher, widely purported to be the father of Romanticism

“The first person who, having enclosed a plot of land, took it into his head to say this is mine and found people simple enough to believe him was the true founder of civil society. What crimes, wars, murders, what miseries and horrors would the human race have been spared, had some one pulled up the stakes or filled in the ditch and cried out to his fellow men: "Do not listen to this imposter. You are lost if you forget that the fruits of the earth belong to all and the earth to no one!”

― Jean-Jacques Rousseau, The Social Contract and The Discourses
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