ACORN under scrutiny for voter fraud in Kansas City

[Thorn]

Remember that the poster who originally stated this is a lawyer and knows what he's talking about. Everyone else is discussing mitigating factors, but the strict letter of the law is just as Socrtease said it is. What is reasonable and just is not always what's written into the letter of the law. Those mitigating factors are what ultimately determine responsibility and are considered independently within the framework of the law.

That's probably the main reason why you see civil lawsuits name several defendants simultaneously.

 

[Bonestorm]

Remember that the poster who originally stated this is a lawyer and knows what he's talking about. Everyone else is discussing mitigating factors, but the strict letter of the law is just as Socrtease said it is. What is reasonable and just is not always what's written into the letter of the law. Those mitigating factors are what ultimately determine responsibility and are considered independently within the framework of the law.

That's probably the main reason why you see civil lawsuits name several defendants simultaneously.

Actually, that's it not true. An employer is generally not liable for the wrongful acts of its employee where those wrongful acts are done not for the benefit of the employer but for the benefit of the employee. Here, because the employees faked registrations for personal gain (and at the expense of ACORN and committed a fraud against ACORN) the employer would not be liable for the wrongful acts of the employee.

As I said previously, at most ACORN negligently supervises its employees which makes it s bad employer but not complicit in voter registration fraud.

 

[Socrtease]

You are wrong.

they turned them in themselves.

If the NRA hired someone to collect voter regs and that person stayed home and made up regs instead in so doing, defrauding the NRA I would laugh but I would not suggest that the NRA did it on purpose.

They did NOT turn themselves in in KC.

Also for your edification:

"Respondeat superior" (Latin: "let the master answer") is a legal doctrine which states that, in many circumstances, an employer is responsible for the actions of employees performed within the course of their employment.[1] This rule is also called the "Master-Servant Rule". It is recognized in both common law and civil law jurisdictions.[2] (It is also sometimes written as respondent superior, the plural form.)

 

[Bonestorm]

They did NOT turn themselves in in KC.

Also for your edification:

"Respondeat superior" (Latin: "let the master answer") is a legal doctrine which states that, in many circumstances, an employer is responsible for the actions of employees performed within the course of their employment.[1] This rule is also called the "Master-Servant Rule". It is recognized in both common law and civil law jurisdictions.[2] (It is also sometimes written as respondent superior, the plural form.)

Soc - Come on man. You know full well it isn't that simple. I mean, was falsifying registrations and getting paid for them, essentially a fraud on ACORN, within the course of their employment? Of course not. ACORN didn't hire people to defraud itself.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Remember that the poster who originally stated this is a lawyer and knows what he's talking about. Everyone else is discussing mitigating factors, but the strict letter of the law is just as Socrtease said it is. What is reasonable and just is not always what's written into the letter of the law. Those mitigating factors are what ultimately determine responsibility and are considered independently within the framework of the law.

That's probably the main reason why you see civil lawsuits name several defendants simultaneously.

I know, I wouldn't normally seriously challenge Soc at the law, but sometimes I just like saying outrageous things.

 

[evince]

These were temporary contract workers.

They are not proven in KC to have any such amount of bad regs as the Republican who runs the show claims.

This is the same crap that was done before the last election that ended up in the firings of two of teh DOJ lawyers for refusing to go allong with the smear adn prosecute ACORN on false charges.

 

[Socrtease]

They were hired to collect and submit voter registrations. The fact that SOME of those registrations were fictitious does not change the fact that there were done in the course of their employment, further, if it were just an isolated incident they MIGHT be able to claim no responsibility, but with this shit happening all over the country they would more than likely be on the hook for it under the theory of Respondeat superior.

 

[evince]

They hire tens of thousands of people to do this all over the country.

There is a small percent who are perpitrating this fraud.

HOW is ACORN benifiting from these acts?????????

 

[Socrtease]

Soc - Come on man. You know full well it isn't that simple. I mean, was falsifying registrations and getting paid for them, essentially a fraud on ACORN, within the course of their employment? Of course not. ACORN didn't hire people to defraud itself.

It was within the course of their employment, the burden is going to shift to ACORN to prove they did some sort of random screening to verify registrations. This shit smells and the smell lingers over many states. I guess you think that the Waste Management Company who employees guys that sometimes kill people shouldn't be held responsible under the RICO statute for the acts committed by their Capos ... ah I mean contractors.

 

[evince]

If they train them and they act in direct violation of their training then I dont see how they are responsible for anything.


Now please tell me how does this benifit ACORN??????

 

[Socrtease]

They hire tens of thousands of people to do this all over the country.

There is a small percent who are perpitrating this fraud.

HOW is ACORN benifiting from these acts?????????

Perhaps it is a criminal enterprise developed for the purpose of influencing the outcomes of an election in a way that the leaders at ACORN desire. This just didn't happen in one spot. It is happening in several states. Christ people believe that Bush et al pulled off a whopper of a conspiracy on 9-11 but ACORN could never pull this off, or at least try.

 

[evince]

How does this benifit them???????


This does nothing but harm them.

 

[Socrtease]

I forget, liberal causes can do no harm, but Diebold is the most evil organization in the world because they want to influence the vote so that THEIR guy got in.

 

[Bonestorm]

It was within the course of their employment, the burden is going to shift to ACORN to prove they did some sort of random screening to verify registrations. This shit smells and the smell lingers over many states. I guess you think that the Waste Management Company who employees guys that sometimes kill people shouldn't be held responsible under the RICO statute for the acts committed by their Capos ... ah I mean contractors.

You're out of your mind. The idea that an employer could not be criminally liable for employees that defraud the employer is ridiculous. That's the key point that you seem to be missing here. The employees defrauded ACORN, falsifying registration to increase their compensation. ACORN is a victim here.

Further, as I said previously, maybe ACORN did not properly supervise it's employees and is directly liable for its failures, but it isn't a case of vicarious liability pursuant to the doctrine of respondeat superior. It's direct liability for ACORN's own negligence.

Also, comparing ACORN to the mafia is laughable.

 

[evince]

Motive my friend Motive.

What is their motivation to have people take their money and write in Famous football players names?


Not one false vote and a lot of wasted funds for ACORN now why would they do that?

 

[Bonestorm]

I forget, liberal causes can do no harm, but Diebold is the most evil organization in the world because they want to influence the vote so that THEIR guy got in.

What a stupid comparison.

Your theory that there is some actual harm due to the Dallas Cowboys starting line up being registered to vote requires someone to actually show up to the voting booth on election day claiming to be Tony Romo and trying to vote. It doesn't happen.

The real electoral fraud is in the counting of the votes, not in the casting of illegal ballots.

 

[evince]

I forget, liberal causes can do no harm, but Diebold is the most evil organization in the world because they want to influence the vote so that THEIR guy got in.

Not influence, CHANGE legal votes into illegal votes.


ACORN has never been accused of producing one single illegal vote.

 

[Socrtease]

Employer/employee relationships are the most common area wherein respondeat superior is applied, but often the doctrine is used in the agency relationship. In this, the principal becomes liable for the actions of the agent, even if the principal did not directly commit the act. There are three considerations generally:

1 Was the act committed within the time and space limits of the agency?

The Answer to this is yes.

2 Was the offense incidental to, or of the same general nature as, the responsibilities the agent is authorized to perform?

Again yes.

3 Was the agent motivated to any degree to benefit the principal by committing the act?

Maybe. Obama has connections to ACORN. I am NOT saying that Obama had ANYTHING to do with this. Do not forget, I am voting for him. But perhaps ACORN forsees some special treatment from the administration if they can help bring this election home for Obama. This is the part of the equation we don't know the answer too. So long as no ACORN employee roll on their bosses then they will probably walk. But wow it is so coincidental that this is happening in LV, NM, CO and MO but no one at the head office would know.

 

[Bonestorm]

Employer/employee relationships are the most common area wherein respondeat superior is applied, but often the doctrine is used in the agency relationship. In this, the principal becomes liable for the actions of the agent, even if the principal did not directly commit the act. There are three considerations generally:

1 Was the act committed within the time and space limits of the agency?

The Answer to this is yes.

2 Was the offense incidental to, or of the same general nature as, the responsibilities the agent is authorized to perform?

Again yes.

3 Was the agent motivated to any degree to benefit the principal by committing the act?

Maybe. Obama has connections to ACORN. I am NOT saying that Obama had ANYTHING to do with this. Do not forget, I am voting for him. But perhaps ACORN forsees some special treatment from the administration if they can help bring this election home for Obama. This is the part of the equation we don't know the answer too. So long as no ACORN employee roll on their bosses then they will probably walk. But wow it is so coincidental that this is happening in LV, NM, CO and MO but no one at the head office would know.

Again, you're out of your fucking mind. ACORN pays canvassers by the number of registrations the canvassers obtain. Think about that for a minute and then think about the likelihood that a part-time employee would make up some registrations to get paid more. It doesn't take a fucking conspiracy. And it isn't even coincidental. It's the likely result of the compensation structure of low paid employees with insufficient oversight.

Furthermore, what you continue to ignore is that there is no benefit to anyone anywhere whatsoever in registering the Dallas Cowboys starting line up in Nevada unless Tony Romo and Terrell Owens show up to vote on election day. That doesn't bring in anything for anyone except the canvasser that submitted the registration forms with the Cowboys roster.


Oh, and that's the most simplistic analysis I've ever seen. Please tell me you think a bit more about things before briefing them in real life.

 

[Socrtease]

Again, you're out of your fucking mind. ACORN pays canvassers by the number of registrations the canvassers obtain. Think about that for a minute and then think about the likelihood that a part-time employee would make up some registrations to get paid more. It doesn't take a fucking conspiracy. And it isn't even coincidental. It's the likely result of the compensation structure of low paid employees with insufficient oversight.

Furthermore, what you continue to ignore is that there is no benefit to anyone anywhere whatsoever in registering the Dallas Cowboys starting line up in Nevada unless Tony Romo and Terrell Owens show up to vote on election day. That doesn't bring in anything for anyone except the canvasser that submitted the registration forms with the Cowboys roster.


Oh, and that's the most simplistic analysis I've ever seen. Please tell me you think a bit more about things before briefing them in real life.

I am not writing a brief or a law journal article. What I posted is the jist of RS law. And failing to properly train your employees OR not verifying registration would not clear you of wrong doing. My bet is ACORN gets a hefty fine. Lack of quality control is not an excuse.