Afghanistan More Civilized than America

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I hope Obama will sign this. Voting against banning the use of cluster bombs was the deciding factor in why I could not support Hillary. Obama voted for the ban. I expect him to come through as President.

It's an act of pure evil to use cluster bombs, or to advocate their use. Their main victims are children. In America, many on the right have no problem with that. As long as, you know, it's not their children. I have always mused that it's a shame the hell most of them believe in doesn't actually exist. Cause they'd be taking the express elevator, straight down.



Afghanistan Says It Will Sign Cluster Bomb Treaty
By WALTER GIBBS and KIRK SEMPLE
OSLO — In a surprising last-minute change of policy, the government of President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan agreed on Wednesday to join about 100 nations in signing a treaty banning the use of cluster munitions, a senior Afghan official said.

“Until this morning, our position was that we were unable,” Afghan’s Ambassador to Norway and the Nordic countries, Jawed Ludin, said in a telephone interview on Wednesday. “But given the persistent campaign by the various civil society organizations and victims” the president gave his authorization, he said.

Representatives of about 100 nations began signing the ambitious treaty formally renouncing the use of the bombs, typically anti-personnel weapons that eject dozens of explosive bomblets when detonated. But some of the world’s biggest military powers, including the United States, China and Russia, reject the pact and many of the signatories expressed concern that the treaty they were signing fails to bind the countries most prone to military conflict.

As the sponsor of a drive to outlaw the use of the bombs, Norway was the first to sign the treaty, followed by Laos, Lebanon and Ireland.

But the United States has rejected the new treaty and therefore may legally continue to deploy its vast cluster-bomb arsenal. Russia, China, India, Pakistan and most Middle Eastern states have also refused to give up their weapons despite the lethal danger they pose to civilians.

As one of the nations that has most suffered the effects of cluster munitions, especially in terms of civilian casualties, Afghanistan had been a significant holdout from the treaty. “It’s a huge deal because no one here was not expecting it,” said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst for Human Right Watch, who was at the event in Oslo. Mr. Garlasco said that upon hearing the news, a group of Afghan survivors of cluster bombs, most of them in wheelchairs or on crutches, burst into tears. The host of the signing conference, Norwegian Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere, said universal compliance was not necessary for the cluster-bomb treaty to work. “What we’ve adopted today is going to create profound change,” he said. “If you use or stockpile cluster weapons after today you will be breaking a new international norm.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/world/04cluster.html?hp=&pagewanted=print
 
Couldn't agree more. I hate how civilian casualties are regarded here, for the most part..."collateral damage." I mean, what the f is that? I have heard it so many times - on message boards, in letters to the editor, etc. - "why are we so concerned about civilian casualties? These people will kill us if they get a chance to, anyway! Don't you remember 9/11?" And this is about people who we are supposed to be protecting.

We've really dehumanized that whole region.
 
word
gtf out of afghanistan, no kind of bombs should be dropped on hadji, he did not blow up the towers.
 
They have to dehumanize it. Otherwise they would have to face the fact that they are slaughtering innocent women and children.

Cluster bombs, like mines, should be banned by all nations. Anyone who does not agree should be forced to help pick up the pieces of the children that get blown apart.
 
Couldn't agree more. I hate how civilian casualties are regarded here, for the most part..."collateral damage." I mean, what the f is that? I have heard it so many times - on message boards, in letters to the editor, etc. - "why are we so concerned about civilian casualties? These people will kill us if they get a chance to, anyway! Don't you remember 9/11?" And this is about people who we are supposed to be protecting.

We've really dehumanized that whole region.

Yes, well said. I think we always do this. I never saw this, but I have heard about a very powerful clip of film, broadcast during Vietnam. ONe of our military people or politicos was pontificating, a lot like SR used to - about how "they" don't grieve the way we do, and human life has a different value there. And someone juxtaposed that with a clip of a Vietnamese woman, overcome with grief, throwing herself on her child's coffin.

I think we need another wakeup call.

But Onceler, on the stranger side - are you starting to get a little nervous with how much Top is agreeing with us? :clink:
 
Yes, well said. I think we always do this. I never saw this, but I have heard about a very powerful clip of film, broadcast during Vietnam. ONe of our military people or politicos was pontificating, a lot like SR used to - about how "they" don't grieve the way we do, and human life has a different value there. And someone juxtaposed that with a clip of a Vietnamese woman, overcome with grief, throwing herself on her child's coffin.

I think we need another wakeup call.

But Onceler, on the stranger side - are you starting to get a little nervous with how much Top is agreeing with us? :clink:

Oh, lord - I remember that SR argument, among others.

Toppy & I are like ideological brothers, now; it's incredibly strange. I agree with almost everything he says.
 
while i agree cluster bombs are inhumane (if used on innocents) I disagree with your assessment that Afghanistan is more civilized then America.

You as a feminist must be aware of what they do to women there.
 
Oh, lord - I remember that SR argument, among others.

Toppy & I are like ideological brothers, now; it's incredibly strange. I agree with almost everything he says.

Next thing you know, Top will be getting manicures and wearing an "I'm a metrosexual and I vote!" T-shirt.
 
while i agree cluster bombs are inhumane (if used on innocents) I disagree with your assessment that Afghanistan is more civilized then America.

You as a feminist must be aware of what they do to women there.

True, but in this case, their state policy is now more civilized than America's.

Those religious whacks who abuse and murder women there, live here too. The statistics on domestic violence alone -this precludes non-domestic sex assault and rape - are astronomical here. Over there, since the fall of the Taliban, their laws have caught up with modernity, but their fanatical religious culture has not. So they can be more public about it, and more brutal, and they do not face the public scorn that abusive men in America face. I believe you will see that begin to change. But that's a change that's going to have to be fought for by Afghani women.
 
True, but in this case, their state policy is now more civilized than America's.

Those religious whacks who abuse and murder women there, live here too. The statistics on domestic violence alone -this precludes non-domestic sex assault and rape - are astronomical here. Over there, since the fall of the Taliban, their laws have caught up with modernity, but their fanatical religious culture has not. So they can be more public about it, and more brutal, and they do not face the public scorn that abusive men in America face. I believe you will see that begin to change. But that's a change that's going to have to be fought for by Afghani women.

Fact Box

* Every 30 minutes, an Afghan woman dies during childbirth
* 87 percent of Afghan women are illiterate
* 30 percent of girls have access to education in Afghanistan
* 1 in every 3 Afghan women experience physical, psychological or sexual violence
* 44 years is the average life expectancy rate for women in Afghanistan
* 70 to 80 percent of women face forced marriages in Afghanistan
 
True, but in this case, their state policy is now more civilized than America's.

Those religious whacks who abuse and murder women there, live here too. The statistics on domestic violence alone -this precludes non-domestic sex assault and rape - are astronomical here. Over there, since the fall of the Taliban, their laws have caught up with modernity, but their fanatical religious culture has not. So they can be more public about it, and more brutal, and they do not face the public scorn that abusive men in America face. I believe you will see that begin to change. But that's a change that's going to have to be fought for by Afghani women.

Afghanistan actually has more women legislators in parliament than America.
 
Fact Box

* Every 30 minutes, an Afghan woman dies during childbirth
* 87 percent of Afghan women are illiterate
* 30 percent of girls have access to education in Afghanistan
* 1 in every 3 Afghan women experience physical, psychological or sexual violence
* 44 years is the average life expectancy rate for women in Afghanistan
* 70 to 80 percent of women face forced marriages in Afghanistan

Chap I hate to tell you this, but worldwide, 1 in 3 women report being beaten or sexually abused in their lifetime. That figure includes all Westernized nations, even the US, the Uk, etc. And many of those other figures are right in line with any other non-westernized nation.

What is your point Chap? This thread is about cluster bombs? Why do you want to change it? If you want to defend cluster bombs, make your case. But stop distracting. I have SF for that.
 
Chap I hate to tell you this, but worldwide, 1 in 3 women report being beaten or sexually abused in their lifetime. That figure includes all Westernized nations, even the US, the Uk, etc. And many of those other figures are right in line with any other non-westernized nation.

What is your point Chap? This thread is about cluster bombs? Why do you want to change it? If you want to defend cluster bombs, make your case. But stop distracting. I have SF for that.

I think I can see his point. Can't everyone else? It is very plain to me.
 
Chap I hate to tell you this, but worldwide, 1 in 3 women report being beaten or sexually abused in their lifetime. That figure includes all Westernized nations, even the US, the Uk, etc. And many of those other figures are right in line with any other non-westernized nation.

What is your point Chap? This thread is about cluster bombs? Why do you want to change it? If you want to defend cluster bombs, make your case. But stop distracting. I have SF for that.

I dont agree with the title of your thread. Bothers me for some reason.
 
By the way Chap, me neither. Cluster bombs or not, and no I don't agree with using them...........but this thread title really is bad.
 
I dont agree with the title of your thread. Bothers me for some reason.


Afghanistan just moved to sign a treaty outlawing the use of a weapon which kills and maims children everyday, and which the United States of America refuses to sign.

That's what should bother you.


That's what bothers me. Maybe you guys should start threads about what bothers you. If you're more concerned with the perception of America, rather than the children we murder, along with by the way, the biggest, and most recent offender of cluster bomb murder, Israel, that's certainly your right.
 
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