Art, Beauty, and Monotheism

BidenPresident said:
Go ahead and explain why.
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If I say there is an OBJECTIVE standard for something then it can be expected that the majority (or at least the central tendency) of any group experiencing it can be expected to experience it in much the same way or arrive at a conclusion about the experience the same.

Subjective means everyone can experience it differently and/or arrive at a different conclusion from the same experience.

They couldn't be more different or have greater implications for their difference.
 
Telocollinite said:
If I say there is an OBJECTIVE standard for something then it can be expected that the majority (or at least the central tendency) of any group experiencing it can be expected to experience it in much the same way or arrive at a conclusion about the experience the same.

Subjective means everyone can experience it differently and/or arrive at a different conclusion from the same experience.

They couldn't be more different or have greater implications for their difference.
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The whole point of the thread is that reasoning is flawed.

Why should everyone think Rothko's abstractions are beautiful?
 
Telocollinite said:
So you find somethings beautiful and you infer that there is objective beauty. Pretty solid reasoning.
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50 years and thousands of people I have known are way more than sufficient evidence that the beauty of an extraordinary sunset is self evident and intelligible to the human mind.
 
BidenPresident said:
Plato was wrong. And he hated art.
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Plato wrote basically a whole dialogue on the nature and truth of beauty. I think it was called the Symposium.

It's true that Plato disliked the poets, because he thought poetry was a distortion of the truth.

But the fact that Plato famously was a gifted writer who worked hard at the aesthetics of writing is pretty solid evidence he cared about aesthetics. Plato's Myth of Er is practically poetic in it's presentation.
 
Cypress said:
Plato wrote basically a whole dialogue on the nature and truth of beauty. I think it was called the Symposium.

It's true that Plato disliked the poets, because he thought poetry was a distortion of the truth.

But the fact that Plato famously was a gifted writer who worked hard at the aesthetics of writing is pretty solid evidence he cared about aesthetics. Plato's Myth of Er is practically poetic in it's presentation.
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No, Plato cared about the form of his writing. He hated art.
 
We had an extraordinary sunset on the Pacific Ocean here Thursday evening. Shades of Pink, lavender, orange, with neon magenta tones reflecting of the bottoms of the clouds

People would literally stop in their tracks to watch it.

Over the last 50 years I have never heard a single person call a sunset similar to that ugly, unappealing, aesthetically unpleasing.
 
Cypress said:
We had an extraordinary sunset on the Pacific Ocean here Thursday evening. Shades of Pink, lavender, orange, with neon magenta tones reflecting of the bottoms of the clouds
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You do realize that all those "colors" you mentioned aren't even objective, correct? You do know enough about Color Theory to know that even color itself is subjective I hope. It's one of the first things you learn when you learn about the L*a*b* and tristimulus value of colors.
 
Telocollinite said:
You do realize that all those "colors" you mentioned aren't even objective, correct? You do know enough about Color Theory to know that even color itself is subjective I hope. It's one of the first things you learn when you learn about the L*a*b* and tristimulus value of colors.
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How would that information help someone looking at a sunset?
 
Beauty does not depend only on elegance, grace, harmony, unity, and the other isolated features that appear in the pathetic lists of our textbooks. Beauty is the object of love: Anything can provoke it, and even a streak of red paint or a blue spot on the upper right-hand corner of a painting that any “person of normal intelligence and eyesight” can perceive can turn out to be aesthetic in a particular context.

https://tannerlectures.utah.edu/_resources/documents/a-to-z/n/Nehamas_02.pdf

I don't agree with everything he says, but this is a good direction. It is pointless to talk about objective properties of the art object which cause beauty.
 
BidenPresident said:
How would that information help someone looking at a sunset?
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Very good question. What it does is let you know that the person sitting beside you looking at the exact same sunset may not be seeing the same colors as you or with the same intensity. It means the experience is SUBJECTIVE.

As such it is very hard to imagine how something predicated on a subjective concept could be "objective" in any meaningful way.
 
Telocollinite said:
You do realize that all those "colors" you mentioned aren't even objective, correct? You do know enough about Color Theory to know that even color itself is subjective I hope. It's one of the first things you learn when you learn about the L*a*b* and tristimulus value of colors.
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When you discuss colors, you have to specify that it is the perception of colors that is subjective and subject to phenomenology. Colors themselves are objective and defined. If you don't believe me, let's discuss Photoshop.

Cypress said:
We had an extraordinary sunset on the Pacific Ocean here Thursday evening. Shades of Pink, lavender, orange, with neon magenta tones reflecting of the bottoms of the clouds
Over the last 50 years I have never heard a single person call a sunset similar to that ugly, unappealing, aesthetically unpleasing.
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Any person, to whose subjective perception those colors don't particularly appeal, probably won't be motivated to make any comment in the first place. The next time you are watching one of those sunsets, have someone with photophobia handy and see if he has positive things to say about the sunset, or if he just wants to leave and go somewhere else.

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