At What Point?

Cypress said:
The problem with militant atheists and holy roller literalists is they are dogmatic and extremely prone to confirmation bias in everything they read pertaining to religion.

The New Testament is not a true historical narrative, but nor is it a complete fabrication of people and events.

Chronology of Written Sources: It's incorrect to confidently say nothing was written about NT characters until decades after they were gone.

Paul's authentic epistles, and the author of Mark were writing when the apostles Peter and James were still around.

Luke specifically writes that many people were recording the stories of Jesus and his disciples before him, but those written sources didn't survive. What we have now is what survived. But there were earlier written sources that have been lost to time.

By ancient standards, sources that post date the actual events by decades is about as good as it's going to get. Herodotus was writing about the Greco-Persian wars about six decades after they occured. And those are our best sources on the Greco-Persian war.

Non-Christian sources: The preeminent first century Jewish historian Josephus records the historicity of Pontius Pilate, Jesus, John the Baptist, Jesus' brother James the Just, and the high priest who oversaw Jesus' trial, Joseph, son of Caiaphas. Most scholars consider these historical references authentic, even if they have been reworked by Christian scribes.

Archeological Evidence: A tablet bearing the name of governor Pontius Pilate was discovered mid 20th century. The ossuary of the high priest Joseph, son of Caiaphas seems to have been identified. And while it is still open to debate the ossuary of James the Just, brother of Jesus, seems to have been found.


Now, start frantically Googling IBDumbass.
Click to expand...
is the old testament a true historical record?

nobody's saying it's a true historical record, but it does say some Jews killed Jesus.

The OT says it's ok for Jews to murder Canaanites. is that factually true.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
the dogma we are discussing WAS the dogma of the RCC at the time.....you are free to reject by grace alone (of course the RCC adopted that doctrine back in the 60s) so you may be alone.......you are also free to reject by scripture alone........tradition isn't a bad thing in itself......unless it contradicts scripture......and remember, at the time of the Reformation RCC "tradition" said if you paid a priest a large sum of gold you could get an indulgence that guaranteed St Peter would open the gates of heaven for you.....
Click to expand...
It still is. Grace alone isn't biblical. Cite it. Grace alone makes heaven available. Getting to heaven required more. Cite the passages to support your claim.
 
Yakuda said:
It still is. Grace alone isn't biblical. Cite it. Grace alone makes heaven available. Getting to heaven required more. Cite the passages to support your claim.
Click to expand...
John 3:18
Galatians 2:15-16

by the way, perhaps you should discuss this with your priest
But first let me make clear the official teachings of the Catholic Church: It teaches that we can do nothing to merit the grace that comes to us in baptism, which is the normal beginning of the Christian life. In fact, the Council of Trent condemned anyone who taught that we can save ourselves or who taught even that God helps us do what we could do for ourselves. The Church teaches that we can be saved only by God’s grace.
Click to expand...
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/arent-we-saved-by-faith-alone
 
Last edited:
IBDaMann said:
Perhaps one of these days you will actually begin using words, the meanings of which you actually understand.


The New Testament is not peanut butter, nor is it an unabridged catalog of the library of Congress. Is it your intention to compile a complete listing of the things the New Testament is not? Perhaps you can see why your commentary is not particularly value-added.

Do you have any idea what the New Testament actually is?


Yes, it correct to say this.


These are not first-hand accounts captured in independent historical documents written by non-biblical characters during the presumed lifetimes of the biblical characters.


This is Luke, the biblical character.


Nope. This is not a first-hand account, and was written long afterwards based off biblical text.


Nope. You do not speak for "most scholars." You don't even speak for any group of intelligent, learned people. You speak for yourself alone.


You do that enough for everybody.
Click to expand...
So you didn't know any of this information until I told you. Thanks for the tacit admission that there is a body of evidence for:

1) Written accounts of the characters of the New Testament written during the lives of the apostles, well before Luke, Mathew, and John.

2) Non-Christian sources referring to the historicity of New Testament characters.

3) Archeological evidence for characters from the New Testament.


You're welcome to dismiss the information you just learned as a grand conspiracy to fabricate historical evidence of NT characters.
 
Yakuda said:
No he doesn't. Your opinion isn't evidence. Cite the passage. Just making a claim is useless.

It's a perversion. Cite the passage

Show me what Paul thought don't tell me.
Click to expand...
Anyone with the most rudimentary understanding of Protestantism is aware that Luther came to his justification by faith alone doctrine by reading the epistles of Paul.

This is so widely known to anyone with a passing familiarly with Christianity it doesn't require a homework assignment to find the actual location of the citations from Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians.

It should be so well known to anyone with an interest in Christianity that if they don't know about it they shouldn't even participate in discussions about Christianity.
 
Cypress said:
Anyone with the most rudimentary understanding of Protestantism is aware that Luther came to his justification by faith alone doctrine by reading the epistles of Paul.

This is so widely known to anyone with a passing familiarly with Christianity it doesn't require a homework assignment to find the actual location of the citations from Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians.

It should be so well known to anyone with an interest in Christianity that if they don't know about it they shouldn't even participate in discussions about Christianity.
Click to expand...
not proof
 

Saved By Grace​


Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV / 85 helpful votes​

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Ephesians 2:8 ESV / 52 helpful votes​

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

John 3:16 ESV / 50 helpful votes​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Titus 3:5 ESV / 43 helpful votes​

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Romans 3:24 ESV / 40 helpful votes​

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 4:16 ESV / 31 helpful votes​

Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Romans 11:6 ESV / 31 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful​

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
 
Blackwater Lunchbreak said:
not proof
Click to expand...
I don't have to do homework or find internet links to prove Hitler and Stalin had a nonaggression pact, any more than I have to cite links to prove Paul's reading of the epistles led him to a justification by faith alone doctrine.

They should be so widely known to any reasonably well read person, that it shouldn't require homework or hyperlinks for proof.
 
Blackwater Lunchbreak said:

Saved By Grace​


Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV / 85 helpful votes​

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Ephesians 2:8 ESV / 52 helpful votes​

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

John 3:16 ESV / 50 helpful votes​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Titus 3:5 ESV / 43 helpful votes​

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Romans 3:24 ESV / 40 helpful votes​

And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 4:16 ESV / 31 helpful votes​

Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Romans 11:6 ESV / 31 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful​

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Click to expand...
Where do any of those say alone?

James tells us we aren't saved by faith alone. Jesus said believe and be baptized. Those who Lord Lord will not be saved but those who do the will if the father
 
Cypress said:
I don't have to do homework or find internet links to prove Hitler and Stalin had a nonaggression pact, any more than I have to cite links to prove Paul's reading of the epistles led him to a justification by faith alone doctrine.

They should be so widely known to any reasonably well read person, that it shouldn't require homework or hyperlinks for proof.
Click to expand...
"Faith alone" only appears one place in scripture.
 

Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV / 22 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful​

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
 
the catholic church should be disbanded for it's horrific inquisitions, and pedophile ring tendencies alone.

plus centuries of bloodshed and ruthless conniving.

devils church. sorry.

becoming a totalitarian worldly power structure is what Jesus was against.

Jesus was a rebel.

thats the message of Christianity.

speak truth to power through the bitter end.

What would Jesus do?
 
Blackwater Lunchbreak said:
it explicitly says it ain't works.
Click to expand...
Oh course it does. James 2:24

You can see, then, that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Jesus himself said it. Matt 7:21

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father."

Does the will of my heavenly father. Flapping your gums is useless

Matthew 25: 31-46
 
Yakuda said:
Oh course it does. James 2:24

You can see, then, that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Jesus himself said it. Matt 7:21

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father."

Does the will of my heavenly father.
Click to expand...
other verses say differently.

Ephesians says explicitly not works.

so what do we do now?

we each choose the ones we like.


you choose works because you fancy yourself a man of actions and that binds you to material outcomes like lucifer wishes.

what we choose from the bible is the actual test.

it's genius.
 
Blackwater Lunchbreak said:
other verses say differently.

Ephesians says explicitly not works.

so what do we do now?

we each choose the ones we like.


you choose works because you fancy yourself a man of actions and that binds you to material outcomes like lucifer wishes.

what we choose from the bible is the actual test.

it's genius.
Click to expand...
No I choose works because it says works. It's all over scripture. It's a contradiction for you not me. The perversion here is the protestant approach of either or. Scripture is clear it's an and both proposition to get to heaven Matt 25:31-46
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top