At What Point?

BidenPresident said:
I did not say anything about how you should read the Bible.

I cited St. Thomas Aquinas saying accounts of Jesus must be factually true in order to qualify as allegory. Otherwise, it is just a story or fantasy.
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Aquinas is 800 years old.

The second most important Christian after Paul, Augustine, said that the New Testament would have to be reimagined and reinterpreted as human knowledge improved in the future.

Metaphor and parable doesn't have to be based on historical fact.

The fact that Jesus spoke in parable, and the Gospel writers recorded it, means they were fully aware they weren't writing a historical research project that would be recognizable to 21st century historians.


I know there are idiots like the Ark Adventure dupes.

But I also feel you have a vested interest and ulterior motive for wanting all Christians thought of as people who take the bible literally and who assume it is factually accurate in all respects.
 
Cypress said:
Aquinas is 800 years old.

The second most important Christian after Paul, Augustine, said that the New Testament would have to be reimagined and reinterpreted as knowledge improved in the future.

Metaphor and parable doesn't have to be based on historical fact.

The fact that Jesus spoke in parable, and the Gospel writers recorded it, means they were fully aware they weren't writing a historical research project that would be recognizable to 21st century historians.


I know there are idiots like the Ark Adventure dupes.

But I also feel you have a vested interest and ulterior motive for wanting all Christians thought of as people who take the bible literally and assume it is factually accurate in all respects.
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I genuinely don't give a shit about the Bible. Read it any way you want.
 
domer76 said:
Perhaps the Resurrection seems medically possible today. Hardly so, 2000 years ago. And hardly after death from crucifixion and a spear to the side. And hardly after three days.

I prefer the Dao or the Stoics for lessons on inner peace. They don’t rely on the supernatural.
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I've read Marcus Aurelius and Lao Tzu, and agree that there is great insight and wisdom within. I've always been interested in the overlap between Lao Tzu, Confucius, The Sermon on the Plain, etc.

My own wild guess theory is that Jesus didn't die on the cross .

He was only mortally injured and comatose. Without modern scientific equipment, a weak heartbeat is difficult to detect. If he recovered some days later, and appeared to his disciples it would have seemed miraculous.
 
Cypress said:
He was only mortally injured and comatose. Without modern scientific equipment, a weak heartbeat is difficult to detect. If he recovered some days later, and appeared to his disciples it would have seemed miraculous.
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Why assume he didn't die on the cross and the stories of his resurrection made up by a struggling sect trying to make sense of the Messiah dying so ignominiously?
 
domer76 said:
Both are good things. However, that wasn’t the question I posed.

At what point do we, as a society, and in our learning institutions stop perpetuating certain myths and teach critical thinking?

I gave a couple examples. There are more.

That evolution is science, not creationism.
That the Big Bang has a scientific basis, but Genesis does not.

And what is the tightrope educators have to walk before they endure the wrath, not of God, but of fundamentalist parents?
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Only certain Christians are creationists. Creationism should never be taught in public school as it violates the separation of church and state. A lot of the stories in the Bible are misinterpreted but also shouldn't be taught in public schools
 
BidenPresident said:
I see no value in asking if god caused the universe if god cannot answer.
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I can’t help you there. Perhaps the believers can answer why their god doesn’t answer. But, I can predict how they’ll respond. That will be that there god has answered in the Bible.

Yeah, I know. Circular reasoning. But that’s going to be their answer.
 
Obtenebrator said:
Why assume he didn't die on the cross and the stories of his resurrection made up by a struggling sect trying to make sense of the Messiah dying so ignominiously?
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Possible, but I'm not a conspiracy theorist. It would be remarkable that all the disciples would successfully conspire to fabricate the Resurrection over bottles of wine at the tavern. It's hard to get three people to keep a secret. Some of the disciples and people who knew Jesus were still alive when Paul, Mark, and the early Christian writers were active. Why did no one spill the beans that a blatant fabrication was being perpetrated?

My wild ass guess fits the details of the overall description in the Gospels, without resorting to miracles, medical marvels, or conspiracy theories.
 
Cypress said:
Possible, but I'm not a conspiracy theorist.
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Exactly. You completely reject the idea that people in high positions ever collude. You are so wise.

Cypress said:
It would be remarkable that all the disciples would successfully conspire to fabricate the Resurrection over bottles of wine at the tavern.
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You have taught us that there is no collusion. Anyone who thinks there ever is must be one of those conspiracy theorist nutcases.

Cypress said:
It's hard to get three people to keep a secret.
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The Iranian government and Al Qassam effectively kept the plan to attack Israel a secret. Oooops, I meant that there isn't ever any collusion and Israel was never attacked. Sorry. My bad.

Cypress said:
Some of the disciples and people who knew Jesus were still alive when Paul, Mark, and the early Christian writers were active.
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Can we take your time machine for a spin so I can check that out for myself?

Cypress said:
Why did no one spill the beans that a blatant fabrication was being perpetrated?
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We'll find that out when we take your time machine for a spin.

Cypress said:
My wild ass guess fits the details of the overall description in the Gospels, without resorting to miracles, medical marvels, or conspiracy theories.
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As long as you don't allow for any collusion by anyone, you must be right.
 
domer76 said:
I can’t help you there. Perhaps the believers can answer why their god doesn’t answer.
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Of course you first need to verify that nobody ever receives an answer and that the problem is not just you.

domer76 said:
But, I can predict how they’ll respond. That will be that there god has answered in the Bible.
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... or that God answers them just fine, and that they aren't quite sure what your problem is ... unless maybe you haven't truly opened your heart to His message. Jussayn.
 
Jade Dragon said:
Creationism should never be taught in public school as it violates the separation of church and state.
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Correction, creationism should never be taught as science, but I think everyone should be given a primer on major religious belief systems and their decompositions. I had to make a Sedar meal as a child to learn the gist of the Jewish concept of Passover. There was definitely no intention of converting me to Judaism or to make me join in any prayers.

Jade Dragon said:
A lot of the stories in the Bible are misinterpreted but also shouldn't be taught in public schools
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So courses on Eastern Religious Thought should be banned?
 
Cypress said:
Possible, but I'm not a conspiracy theorist. It would be remarkable that all the disciples would successfully conspire to fabricate the Resurrection over bottles of wine at the tavern. It's hard to get three people to keep a secret. Some of the disciples and people who knew Jesus were still alive when Paul, Mark, and the early Christian writers were active. Why did no one spill the beans that a blatant fabrication was being perpetrated?
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That presupposes that the disciples had anything to do with the Gospels. But even so; it is easier to imagine people making up a story like that than all the machinations that would make it a literal truth.

Knowing that people all the time make stuff up (just look at many religions) it is easier to assume that for me than a "just so" story that would make sense of the events as written.

There are people who believe the story of Smith and the Golden Tablets that Moroni showed him even though it is manifestly a made up story. Their faith is extremely strong. I see no reason why a similar made up story wouldn't carry weight with believers in an early sect.
 
IBDaMann said:
Of course you first need to verify that nobody ever receives an answer and that the problem is not just you.


... or that God answers them just fine, and that they aren't quite sure what your problem is ... unless maybe you haven't truly opened your heart to His message. Jussayn.
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When one hears voices in their head, it’s called schizophrenia. When it’s God, is it Holy Schizophrenia?

Does your god put qualifiers on who he answers or not? Sounds like playing favorites to me. That’s a human characteristic, isn’t it? Not something an all-powerful, benevolent god would do.
 
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