At What Point?

Yakuda said:
Chapter and verse please.
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galatians 5
4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters is faith, expressed through love.

7You were running so well. Who has obstructed you from obeying the truth? 8Such persuasion does not come from the One who calls you. 9A little leaven works through the whole batch of dough. 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is troubling you will bear the judgment, whoever he may be.

11Now, brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12As for those who are agitating you, I wish they would proceed to emasculate themselves!

13For you, brothers, were called to freedom; but do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh. Rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”a 15But if you keep on biting and devouring one another, watch out, or you will be consumed by one another.

Walking by the Spirit
(Ezekiel 36:16–38; Romans 8:9–11)

16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying one another.
 
Obtenebrator said:
That's an interesting exegesis.

But if you actually read beyond Matt 5:18 you see the following in the next verse: "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (emphasis added)

That sounds pretty clear.
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The sermon on the Mount didn't have anything to do with shellfish, animals with cloven hoofs, circumcision, ritual purity, Temple sacrifice, or any of the other myriad, extensive, and elaborate Jewish ritual laws in Torah.

In a very real sense, the core of the New Testament and Christian theology is Paul. 13 of the 27 books of the New Testament are attributed to Paul, making him the most important and prolific author in the New Testament.

It just doesn't cut the mustard for atheists to insist Christians should just ignore Paul and ignore two thousand years of Christian precedent.
 
Blackwater Lunchbreak said:
galatians 5
4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters is faith, expressed through love.

7You were running so well. Who has obstructed you from obeying the truth? 8Such persuasion does not come from the One who calls you. 9A little leaven works through the whole batch of dough. 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is troubling you will bear the judgment, whoever he may be.

11Now, brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12As for those who are agitating you, I wish they would proceed to emasculate themselves!

13For you, brothers, were called to freedom; but do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh. Rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”a 15But if you keep on biting and devouring one another, watch out, or you will be consumed by one another.

Walking by the Spirit
(Ezekiel 36:16–38; Romans 8:9–11)

16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying one another.
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I've always loved the tactic of volume over accuracy. Which specific verse says

"and the whole of the law shall be do unto others as you would have them do unto you is also pretty clear."

Which is what you claimed
 
Cypress said:
The sermon on the Mount didn't have anything to do with shellfish, animals with cloven hoofs, circumcision, ritual purity, Temple sacrifice, or any of the other myriad, extensive, and elaborate Jewish ritual laws in Torah.
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Yes, Understood. But the SotM is not the whole of Jesus' ministry.

Cypress said:
In a very real sense, the core of the New Testament and Christian theology is Paul.
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Agreed. Christianity is largely a Pauline construction. Certainly it wouldn't look like it does today (assuming it would even survive) without Paul.

Cypress said:
It just doesn't cut the mustard for atheists to insist Christians should just ignore Paul and ignore two thousand years of Christian precedent.
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I certainly don't suggest they should ignore Paul. IF anything Paul's religion was good! It should be something of value to people.

The point (again) is that when examining the theology one can easily see the handprint of man on it at all stages. Paul was, last I heard, just another human.

And like Joseph Smith he leveraged the faith he was brought up in to help create a new faith.
 
Cypress said:
It doesn't have to require lying. That would be an extremely cynical view. Jesus was speaking to Jews, more importantly you don't have to change the letters to interpret it differently.

If one continues reading after that one quote, and goes through the entire sermon on the mount, it's obvious Jesus is reimagining laws of Torah differently than the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Even within the Jewish community of antiquity, the Pharisees and Sadducees couldn't agree on Torah. That didn't mean they were lying. They interpreted it differently.

The actual experts on the Torah - Talmudic scholars - have devoted centuries and oceans of scrolls, ink, parchment, paper in close reading of Torah and interpretation of Torah. And even then Jews can't all agree with each other. Reform Judaism and Orthodox Judaism imagine Torah in extremely different ways.

The people who are the real experts in the Old Testament - Talmudic Jewish scholars - famously wrote that it's up to humans to decide what Torah means, and God should butt out if he shows up to give his opinion. LOL
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Let me make myself clear, Cypress...I DO NOT THINK ANYONE WAS LYING THERE.

I think it is a poorly thought-out mythology...that served an essential service to those relatively unsophisticated, unknowledgeable, superstitious people who wrote it.

I can understand why THEY wrote it, accepted it, and needed it...but I am baffled why people of today's age and relative knowledge continue that tradition. The mythology of the Bible makes no more sense than the mythology of the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, or the Norse.

That is my point...not whether Jesus meant what he said or whether Paul was correct in changing things.
 
Yakuda said:
I've always loved the tactic of volume over accuracy. Which specific verse says

"and the whole of the law shall be do unto others as you would have them do unto you is also pretty clear."

Which is what you claimed
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Im confident in the strength of my rebuttal.

you're just being a nitpicking douche nozzle.

thanks for the bad faith discussion about your alleged faith.
 
Blackwater Lunchbreak said:
and the whole of the law shall be do unto others as you would have them do unto you is also pretty clear.
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Well, only insofar as taken on its own without reference to the rest of the Gospels.

That's another interesting point that shows the hand of man in the faith's creation and evolution. The fact that it is possible to see dramatically different "opinions" expressed by Jesus through the gospels helps one see that the Gospels were, as Cypress noted, written to speak to different audiences.

But if it were the ultimate truth to all of reality it wouldn't be different.
 
Ross Dolan said:
I am baffled why people of today's age and relative knowledge continue that tradition. The mythology of the Bible makes no more sense than the mythology of the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, or the Norse.
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Agree. I have no idea why the culture and religion of ancient Jews is relevant.
 
Obtenebrator said:
Yes, Understood. But the SotM is not the whole of Jesus' ministry.



Agreed. Christianity is largely a Pauline construction. Certainly it wouldn't look like it does today (assuming it would even survive) without Paul.



I certainly don't suggest they should ignore Paul. IF anything Paul's religion was good! It should be something of value to people.

The point (again) is that when examining the theology one can easily see the handprint of man on it at all stages. Paul was, last I heard, just another human.

And like Joseph Smith he leveraged the faith he was brought up in to help create a new faith.
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Obtenebrator said:
Well, only insofar as taken on its own without reference to the rest of the Gospels.

That's another interesting point that shows the hand of man in the faith's creation and evolution. The fact that it is possible to see dramatically different "opinions" expressed by Jesus through the gospels helps one see that the Gospels were, as Cypress noted, written to speak to different audiences.

But if it were the ultimate truth to all of reality it wouldn't be different.
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yes.

sentences have complete meanings in and of their own.

there are contradictions in the Bible.

what you choose to cite is the test for you.
 
Blackwater Lunchbreak said:
what you choose to cite is the test for you.
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Do you think God, in His infinite wisdom, wouldn't have seen how His creation would wind up splitting up along these very lines? Do you think God incapable of foreseeing how His holy word could appear to have significant and unfixable conflicts as it is?

It isn't a test of me, the flawed mere human, as to what I site. I am in incomplete possession of all the facts.
 
Blackwater Lunchbreak said:
Im confident in the strength of my rebuttal.

you're just being a nitpicking douche nozzle.

thanks for the bad faith discussion about your alleged faith.
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No we can discuss the whole thing but I want to see the words that lead you to the conclusion
"and the whole of the law shall be do unto others as you would have them do unto you is also pretty clear."
 
Obtenebrator said:
Do you think God, in His infinite wisdom, wouldn't have seen how His creation would wind up splitting up along these very lines? Do you think God incapable of foreseeing how His holy word could appear to have significant and unfixable conflicts as it is?

It isn't a test of me, the flawed mere human, as to what I site. I am in incomplete possession of all the facts.
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and god would also the more rational instinct to ignore petty differences and parts of moral traditions that have become empty status and virtue signalling, like rejecting calvinism and pharisaic Judaism.

we're finding out who is whom.

morality is ultimately rational.
 
Obtenebrator said:
These are clearly not petty. Some are, but most aren't. Sure it doesn't really matter what Jesus' real genealogy was, but it most assuredly matters whether the laws apply or not.
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jesus's teaching is that loving your neighbor is the fulfillment of the law.

that's directly saying the rest of it is petty.


you can disagree with the obvious teaching as is your right, but the teaching is clear.
 
Blackwater Lunchbreak said:
yes.

sentences have complete meanings in and of their own.

there are contradictions in the Bible.

what you choose to cite is the test for you.
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So because you couldnt find it it's Galatians 5: 14. "For the entire law can be summed up in a single commandment, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

As has already been pointed out to you this isnt exactly the same as, "Do onto others as you would have them do onto you".
 
Yakuda said:
So because you couldnt find it it's Galatians 5: 14. "For the entire law can be summed up in a single commandment, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself".

As has already been pointed out to you this isnt exactly the same as, "Do onto others as you would have them do onto you".
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Im saying it's mostly exactly the same. yes. you can quote me on that.
 
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