Attempt to rekindle Domestic Oil Drilling...

Now you and dixie can go on about who owned whom. When you get done playing.... come on back and we can discuss further.
Click to expand...

Oh no, I'm not getting in the middle of your little fight here! I think Care owned the both of us if the argument is Communism over Capitalism!
 
Superfreak said:
so you are trying to talk about ROI rather than profitability? Then perhaps you shouldn't tell someone that they are "wrong on profit margins".
Click to expand...

honestly super, i never said you were wrong on profit margin....i said you were right that they have about a 10 cent profit margin.....but i just wanted to clarrify WHAT THAT ACTUALLY MEANS....

you implied that they were only making 10 cents on every dollar....as though they put in a dollar and got out of it a dollar and 10 cents, and i just wanted to clear that up!

and without mentioning that they earn 10 cents on every dollar AT RETAIL SOLD....does NOT give the ACTUAL calculation of what they are earning on every dollar they ACTUAL had to put out....invest....which is almost double that, +/-20 cents on every dollar they actually had to invest....

if i invested $100 dollars in a 1 year CD earning 5% interest, then i made 5 bucks on the $100 bucks i invested....saying that oil companies have only a 10% profit margin would make the normal joe think that the oil companies made $10 dollars off of every $100, double the cd earnings of 5%.....which is sort of deceiving.....because they really are earning $20 dollars on their $100 invested......

i wouldn't be shedding any tears over what they are making on their initial investment, they are doing quite well, to say the least, and they are EARNING much more on their initial investment than their profit on their sales/revenue.

you implied in an earler post Super, that they were not earning what i posted on their investment, like i was dreaming and pulling numbers out of the sky, but i wasn't...

you insisted they were not earning more than the 8-10 cents on the dollar....i just pointed out that profit margins are calculated on sales/revenues but NOT on their actual investment dollar.

***there is more to the ROI formula than what i showed in my simplistic example....i duely note such!

care
 
Last edited:
freak has a degree in economics, he hardly needs a dropout to explain roi.
Thank god we have enough republicans to block the uneducated socialistic dems.
 
Topspin said:
freak has a degree in economics, he hardly needs a dropout to explain roi.
Thank god we have enough republicans to block the uneducated socialistic dems.
Click to expand...
you clearly don't understand it, your education didn't do crapola for you now did it? ;)

you think they only make 10 cents off of every dollar still, without even knowing the difference between what they earn on the retail dollar verses what they earn on the "INVESTED DOLLAR", the actual dollar spent of their own....

And a good morning to you toppy....

Care
 
I do not see that it matters whether we calculate based on %age profit margin for retail sales, or %age of ROI. The ROI of other companies is also higher than their profit margins for the same reasons. And in comparison with other types of businesses, both the profit margins and the ROI of oil companies is not unusually high. Many companies have better margins AND better ROI's.

The records being set by oil companies is due to people driving huge honkin' "SUV" trucks instead of reasonable, fuel efficient cars. Add that to the fact that more people are driving (as opposed to car pooling, using mass transit, etc.) and driving their trucks more often (ie: making multiple, inefficient trips instead combining trips.) In short, we have been using gasoline in record amounts. Therefore oil companies are making record profits.

With the recent spike in prices, our consumption rate has dropped a little. And I would be willing to wager that next quarter the oil companies will show a corresponding drop in profits.

The whole windfall profits crapola is nothing more than a political blame game to point the finger at the big bad oil guys so we don't have to blame ourselves for the current energy crisis. While there is no doubt oil companies are doing what they can to maximize profits, that is what EVERY business does.

Unless we can show they are using illegal tactics to increase their profit margins (or ROI's) then we have no one to blame but ourselves as a society (and individually if the shoe fits) for the level of oil consumption which has led to huge company profits AND for the degree to which the current oil price crunch has hit us.
 
Good Luck said:
I do not see that it matters whether we calculate based on %age profit margin for retail sales, or %age of ROI. The ROI of other companies is also higher than their profit margins for the same reasons. And in comparison with other types of businesses, both the profit margins and the ROI of oil companies is not unusually high. Many companies have better margins AND better ROI's.

The records being set by oil companies is due to people driving huge honkin' "SUV" trucks instead of reasonable, fuel efficient cars. Add that to the fact that more people are driving (as opposed to car pooling, using mass transit, etc.) and driving their trucks more often (ie: making multiple, inefficient trips instead combining trips.) In short, we have been using gasoline in record amounts. Therefore oil companies are making record profits.

With the recent spike in prices, our consumption rate has dropped a little. And I would be willing to wager that next quarter the oil companies will show a corresponding drop in profits.

The whole windfall profits crapola is nothing more than a political blame game to point the finger at the big bad oil guys so we don't have to blame ourselves for the current energy crisis. While there is no doubt oil companies are doing what they can to maximize profits, that is what EVERY business does.

Unless we can show they are using illegal tactics to increase their profit margins (or ROI's) then we have no one to blame but ourselves as a society (and individually if the shoe fits) for the level of oil consumption which has led to huge company profits AND for the degree to which the current oil price crunch has hit us.
Click to expand...

OF COURSE there are going to be SOME companies that make more in a profit than oil companies do....DOES THAT really matter.....?

it is mostly A CHOICE of the consumers on these other products that earn more for their product which they created out of ingenuity....like micro soft...

It is NOT A CHOICE for us to use gasoline or oil to heat our homes....i have no choice on fuels up here, just oil....unless i cut wood.

There is no competition to drive prices down in the oil industry....it is a cartel, and our oil people go along with it, charging us the oil cartel's price....and we do not have any true competition left in the usa with these guys on gasoline refined because of the mega mergers that were allowed to take place too...

Most of these other companies are selling you things that you do not need to survive....such is not the case with oil and oil byproducts such as gasoline....or at least there have not been any viable choices....we are working to change such.

These companies were profitable when they were earning 6.5% PROFIT on the retail dollar....even if they kept their required profit margin the same at 6.5% they would have doubled their profit DOLLARS from 2000 just by the price increases of oil being double....

But they chose to take even MORE out of every retail dollar sold for themselves...they raised their profit margin to 10.8% giving exxon as example...

Ones profit margin is PLANNED by businesses, not just a "happenstance", it is part of a business model....now granted, things can change what one plans, like a lousy season and more markdowns may reduce the profit margin one expects to get, or you have a really hot seller with a high markup that got more action than one expected and it raises you higher than what you projected and planned your profit margin to be....

Exxon chose to raise their profit MARGIN from 6.5% to 10.8%, which is a 66% increase in profit margin, or simply a change in what they decided to take as their share of the retail dollar sold...

if their profit margin was high at 10.8% one quarter and then went back down to 7% the next quater, then i would say it was a one quarter fluke, but this is not the case.

What this means is that EVEN IF oil prices had not risen, they would still be making 66% more in profit off the retail dollar now than they did in 2000....

Then when you add in the higher revenues they are bringing in because of the world oil price hikes, you are talking record profits (in dollars), which have been reported....

It does matter that profit is calculated on the sales/revenues at retail because we have one poster after another implying that the 10.8 cents on the retail dollar "is not much" in earnings, but they neglect to mention that it is really nearing double that when you talk about what they are earning on their actual investment....which is getting close if not surpassed what older usery laws covered as illegal, though it may not be today because of congress being paid off to drop usery and such relating, laws.

I am not suggesting we "go after them" for this, just that it is not a simple happenstance of higher oil prices when you speak about margin/ percent, and that please don't buy in to the "crying the blues" that the oil companies and their sympathizers seem to be doing...

They are doing QUITE WELL, tyvm.

Care

ps. and good morning Good Luck!
 
guess what walmart earns, our largest usa retail corporation earns on their retail dollar?

3.4%

why only this?

because there is TRUE COMPETITION in the retail arena, which keeps their retail prices down....thus better for us, the consumer.

yes, i know there are walmart haters out there, complaining on how they treat employees yahdeedah.....the Waldon's own most of the stock and are mega rich yahdeedah....

but in reality, even with buying from the cheap labor China, they are NOT GOUGING anyone on their items at retail with just a 3.4% plus or minus a tenth of percent or two, in profits at retail....
 
you really shouldn't have dropped out.
Retail gasoline is a lot more competetive than wallmart.
Hey there's this new story out Walmart is driving little retailers out of business.:cof1:
 
Topspin said:
you really shouldn't have dropped out.
Retail gasoline is a lot more competetive than wallmart.
Hey there's this new story out Walmart is driving little retailers out of business.:cof1:
Click to expand...
sure it is somewhat, but their supply is not....
 
Care4all said:
honestly super, i never said you were wrong on profit margin....i said you were right that they have about a 10 cent profit margin.....but i just wanted to clarrify WHAT THAT ACTUALLY MEANS....

you implied that they were only making 10 cents on every dollar....as though they put in a dollar and got out of it a dollar and 10 cents, and i just wanted to clear that up!

and without mentioning that they earn 10 cents on every dollar AT RETAIL SOLD....does NOT give the ACTUAL calculation of what they are earning on every dollar they ACTUAL had to put out....invest....which is almost double that, +/-20 cents on every dollar they actually had to invest....

if i invested $100 dollars in a 1 year CD earning 5% interest, then i made 5 bucks on the $100 bucks i invested....saying that oil companies have only a 10% profit margin would make the normal joe think that the oil companies made $10 dollars off of every $100, double the cd earnings of 5%.....which is sort of deceiving.....because they really are earning $20 dollars on their $100 invested......

i wouldn't be shedding any tears over what they are making on their initial investment, they are doing quite well, to say the least, and they are EARNING much more on their initial investment than their profit on their sales/revenue.

you implied in an earler post Super, that they were not earning what i posted on their investment, like i was dreaming and pulling numbers out of the sky, but i wasn't...

you insisted they were not earning more than the 8-10 cents on the dollar....i just pointed out that profit margins are calculated on sales/revenues but NOT on their actual investment dollar.

***there is more to the ROI formula than what i showed in my simplistic example....i duely note such!

care
Click to expand...


Honestly Care.... you did say just that....

"Originally Posted by Care4all
i don't believe you are correct on the profit MARGINS super, they have risen double digits since about 2000.... i am not talking profit dollars, but what percentage they are making in profit of their total sales....they have had record increases in their profit MARGINS, and profit dollars....read this a while back...."
 
Care4all said:
honestly super, i never said you were wrong on profit margin....i said you were right that they have about a 10 cent profit margin.....but i just wanted to clarrify WHAT THAT ACTUALLY MEANS....

you implied that they were only making 10 cents on every dollar....as though they put in a dollar and got out of it a dollar and 10 cents, and i just wanted to clear that up!

and without mentioning that they earn 10 cents on every dollar AT RETAIL SOLD....does NOT give the ACTUAL calculation of what they are earning on every dollar they ACTUAL had to put out....invest....which is almost double that, +/-20 cents on every dollar they actually had to invest....

if i invested $100 dollars in a 1 year CD earning 5% interest, then i made 5 bucks on the $100 bucks i invested....saying that oil companies have only a 10% profit margin would make the normal joe think that the oil companies made $10 dollars off of every $100, double the cd earnings of 5%.....which is sort of deceiving.....because they really are earning $20 dollars on their $100 invested......

i wouldn't be shedding any tears over what they are making on their initial investment, they are doing quite well, to say the least, and they are EARNING much more on their initial investment than their profit on their sales/revenue.

you implied in an earler post Super, that they were not earning what i posted on their investment, like i was dreaming and pulling numbers out of the sky, but i wasn't...

you insisted they were not earning more than the 8-10 cents on the dollar....i just pointed out that profit margins are calculated on sales/revenues but NOT on their actual investment dollar.

***there is more to the ROI formula than what i showed in my simplistic example....i duely note such!

care
Click to expand...

I implied nothing of the sort. I stated quite clearly that their profit margins were below that of GE. That their profit margins were 8-10%. I said nothing of their ROI or ROA.... until I realized THAT is what YOU were trying to discuss.
 
Care4all said:
"OF COURSE there are going to be SOME companies that make more in a profit than oil companies do....DOES THAT really matter.....?"

Yes, it does matter. Too many on the left are attempting to pretend the oil companies are somehow gouging the consumer.

"it is mostly A CHOICE of the consumers on these other products that earn more for their product which they created out of ingenuity....like micro soft..."

Every consumer also has a choice in how much energy they consume. The fact that this country is rather glutonous with energy leads to higher prices.

"It is NOT A CHOICE for us to use gasoline or oil to heat our homes....i have no choice on fuels up here, just oil....unless i cut wood."

It is a choice how warm or cool you keep your home during the changing seasons. It is a choice how efficient your car is. It is a choice if people drive cars vs. take public transportation (when available). It is a choice if people drive to work when they could bike or walk. It is a choice to drive a 5000 pound SUV vs. a compact car. Quit pretending the consumers don't have a choice. They do. For far too long we have abused the amount of energy we consume. It is only now that other countries are increasing their usage that we feel the pain.

"There is no competition to drive prices down in the oil industry....it is a cartel, and our oil people go along with it, charging us the oil cartel's price....and we do not have any true competition left in the usa with these guys on gasoline refined because of the mega mergers that were allowed to take place too..."

Again, incorrect. Alternative sources of energy are out there and as oil prices rise they become more economically viable. As technology increases they become more economically viable. WE, as a whole, can most certainly control the price of oil.... IF we use it more efficiently and cut back on our waste. THAT alone will help drive down prices and future expectations.

"Most of these other companies are selling you things that you do not need to survive....such is not the case with oil and oil byproducts such as gasoline....or at least there have not been any viable choices....we are working to change such."

See above.

"These companies were profitable when they were earning 6.5% PROFIT on the retail dollar....even if they kept their required profit margin the same at 6.5% they would have doubled their profit DOLLARS from 2000 just by the price increases of oil being double...."

This is a bogus claim. Their long term average profit margin has been around that same 8-10% range. Just because you cherry pick a time when their profit margin is increasing back towards the average, you try to make it sound worse than it was. Unless of course you were equally pissed and complaining when they were LOSING money in the 1990's.

"But they chose to take even MORE out of every retail dollar sold for themselves...they raised their profit margin to 10.8% giving exxon as example..."

EVERY company attempts to maximize profits. Talk to the people in your neighborhood. Ask them to take a pay cut because you wish the products and services their firms provide would be cheaper.

"Ones profit margin is PLANNED by businesses, not just a "happenstance", it is part of a business model....now granted, things can change what one plans, like a lousy season and more markdowns may reduce the profit margin one expects to get, or you have a really hot seller with a high markup that got more action than one expected and it raises you higher than what you projected and planned your profit margin to be...."

Of course it is planned. Every business seeks to maximize profits. It is ridiculous to suggest they should not do so. They are meeting demand. That is what they are also supposed to do. IF you wish for them not to be as profitable, then work to get that demand as low as possible. But quit bitching about the fact that they are doing the same damn thing that every other firm out there is trying to do. Especially if you are going to ignore the years where they were not profitable at all and losing money because those "evil speculators" kept oil below fair value for so long.

"Exxon chose to raise their profit MARGIN from 6.5% to 10.8%, which is a 66% increase in profit margin, or simply a change in what they decided to take as their share of the retail dollar sold..."

And Exxon profit margin in the 1990's was what? OMG!!! they raised it from losing money to making 6.5% which is like a gagillion percent increase. This is a faux argument. They are simply reverting back to the long term averages of the industry. Side note.... the long term averages for manufacturing firms on the whole is also right around that 8-10% range.


They are doing QUITE WELL, tyvm.

Care

ps. and good morning Good Luck!
Click to expand...

Oh... and good morning :)
 
Care4all said:
OF COURSE there are going to be SOME companies that make more in a profit than oil companies do....DOES THAT really matter.....?

it is mostly A CHOICE of the consumers on these other products that earn more for their product which they created out of ingenuity....like micro soft...

It is NOT A CHOICE for us to use gasoline or oil to heat our homes....i have no choice on fuels up here, just oil....unless i cut wood.

There is no competition to drive prices down in the oil industry....it is a cartel, and our oil people go along with it, charging us the oil cartel's price....and we do not have any true competition left in the usa with these guys on gasoline refined because of the mega mergers that were allowed to take place too...

Most of these other companies are selling you things that you do not need to survive....such is not the case with oil and oil byproducts such as gasoline....or at least there have not been any viable choices....we are working to change such.

These companies were profitable when they were earning 6.5% PROFIT on the retail dollar....even if they kept their required profit margin the same at 6.5% they would have doubled their profit DOLLARS from 2000 just by the price increases of oil being double....

But they chose to take even MORE out of every retail dollar sold for themselves...they raised their profit margin to 10.8% giving exxon as example...

Ones profit margin is PLANNED by businesses, not just a "happenstance", it is part of a business model....now granted, things can change what one plans, like a lousy season and more markdowns may reduce the profit margin one expects to get, or you have a really hot seller with a high markup that got more action than one expected and it raises you higher than what you projected and planned your profit margin to be....

Exxon chose to raise their profit MARGIN from 6.5% to 10.8%, which is a 66% increase in profit margin, or simply a change in what they decided to take as their share of the retail dollar sold...

if their profit margin was high at 10.8% one quarter and then went back down to 7% the next quater, then i would say it was a one quarter fluke, but this is not the case.

What this means is that EVEN IF oil prices had not risen, they would still be making 66% more in profit off the retail dollar now than they did in 2000....

Then when you add in the higher revenues they are bringing in because of the world oil price hikes, you are talking record profits (in dollars), which have been reported....

It does matter that profit is calculated on the sales/revenues at retail because we have one poster after another implying that the 10.8 cents on the retail dollar "is not much" in earnings, but they neglect to mention that it is really nearing double that when you talk about what they are earning on their actual investment....which is getting close if not surpassed what older usery laws covered as illegal, though it may not be today because of congress being paid off to drop usery and such relating, laws.

I am not suggesting we "go after them" for this, just that it is not a simple happenstance of higher oil prices when you speak about margin/ percent, and that please don't buy in to the "crying the blues" that the oil companies and their sympathizers seem to be doing...

They are doing QUITE WELL, tyvm.

Care

ps. and good morning Good Luck!
Click to expand...
Where did I say I feel sorry for the oil companies? They are making a shit pile of money.

What I disagree with (which you say you do not support?) is the democratic plan of punishing them for doing well in response to a oil price spike that is not their doing. Between wanting some kind of "windfall profit tax" and trying to regulate speculators - which are a world wide phenomenon - the democratic party is once again recognizing a significant problem, but coming out with brain dead, do-nothing, politically popular because it is easy to find and fix blame on a designated bad guy, "solutions". And their solutions are going to end up causing more problems than the one they are supposed to be solving.

The only solid proposal coming from the democratic party is the support of developing alternate energy sources, but even there they have too many idea dependent on implementation of never-ending subsidies.

Meanwhile the republicans are stalling on developing alternates which is a dumb-assed move, but at least they understand that the way to address the oil price spike is to get more domestic oil online as fast as possible, which would have the double effect of lowering prices through more supply as well as strengthening the dollar by decreasing trade deficits.
 
It is NOT A CHOICE for us to use gasoline or oil to heat our homes....i have no choice on fuels up here, just oil....unless i cut wood.

There is no competition to drive prices down in the oil industry....it is a cartel, and our oil people go along with it, charging us the oil cartel's price....and we do not have any true competition left in the usa with these guys on gasoline refined because of the mega mergers that were allowed to take place too...

it is a choice for you to drive
and if the dems didn't have you idiot policy to not tap our own oil Opec would not have cartel power.
 
Both of you are losers, you call someone selfish because they are successful.
Go brush your tooth grampa.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top