Basics of Politics; Big Gov vs. Big Gov Corruption

Anti-Party

Anti-Party

Tea Is The New Kool-Aid
Anyone notice that the party who hates helpful or big gov is also nearly always the source of corruption in big gov?

Basic stuff.
 
Government by definition is force. Force by nature is corruption. Small government=small corruption. BIG government=BIG corruption.

“Government is not reason it is not eloquence, its force like fire a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible actions.” (George Washington)
 
Classic Liberal said:
Government by definition is force. Force by nature is corruption. Small government=small corruption. BIG government=BIG corruption.

“Government is not reason it is not eloquence, its force like fire a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible actions.” (George Washington)
Click to expand...

That's all fine and dandy, but what does that mean practically speaking, i.e. what is its application in the real world?

It is not surprising that many of our founding fathers viewed government with suspicion; they hadn't a single example of good government to serve as a reference point. We've come a LONG way since that time. You may not like the governments of Norway and Denmark (which are twice the size of ours, proportionally speaking), but I don't think they are inherently more corrupt than ours - probably much less corrupt, actually.
 
Last edited:
Rationalist said:
Both parties like big government; the only difference is that Democrats are willing to admit it.



Which party was responsible for the IRS scandal, in your estimation?
Click to expand...

Which party? Or which person?

One person has said they won't answer questions. Tell me what party they are.

It's not a party scandal. It's basic profiling. Nearly every Right Wing video I watch tells me to stop paying Federal Income Taxes. I've even seen that there is no law that makes you.......

This is directly comparable to an officer pulling over a Mexican in New Mexico only because he/she is Mexican and there are a lot of illegal immigrants. Basic profiling.

A clean Mexican can wait up to 40 minutes to be cleared. A Government hate group might have to take the time needed to clear themselves also.

This is pretty basic stuff.
 
Threedee said:
This is the first I'm hearing of Dem ambivalence toward big government...
Click to expand...

It's the basics of politics.

One party wants to help many because the power of the "United We Stand" is a very powerful force.
The other party wants donations for the needy to be optional. Yet once in the office that party tends to do the most damage with that power such as "Oil Fracking". Making laws to prevent any eyes looking into the citizen killing ingredients used on Americans.
 
Classic Liberal said:
Government by definition is force. Force by nature is corruption. Small government=small corruption. BIG government=BIG corruption.

“Government is not reason it is not eloquence, its force like fire a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible actions.” (George Washington)
Click to expand...

Well said by a Federalist. And you could learn a LOT by reading this entire thread and then reading your own post.
 
Classic Liberal said:
Government by definition is force. Force by nature is corruption. Small government=small corruption. BIG government=BIG corruption.

“Government is not reason it is not eloquence, its force like fire a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible actions.” (George Washington)
Click to expand...

So, you think anarchy is a lack of corruption?

Government is not necessarily corrupt, it's just that in any large assortment of human beings you will find self interest overtaking public interest, I don't care what party they belong to. But the lack of government is no less corrupt than too much government. Take a look at Somalia and some of the other poorly governed areas nearby. Warlords, gangs, pirates, child armies, blood diamonds, and so forth. You think that is a LACK of corruption?

Government can either be the problem OR the solution. It's up to us to make sure it works for us and not against us. But, I'll not quietly accept this slander that seeks to make us distrust and fear government just because it IS government.

As far as your Washington quote? What's your source? I'm not just going to take you word for it. He has been misquoted far too often,
http://politicalirony.com/2011/06/08/misquoting-the-founding-fathers/

Even assuming our world looked anything like his did. I read that Voltaire is quoted as saying" A witty saying proves nothing." - Neither does a quote. It was just something someone said that is as prone to error as you and I. Now if they have some factual studies and numbers and evidence, come tell me about it.
 
Last edited:
People need to learn the difference between American Objectives and Corporate Objectives.

Then we wouldn't have to choose between helping someone who is blind vs. helping Corporations profit via "building tanks"

Every American wants the same thing yet we all have different paths we think we should take to get it. One party thinks we can take the path with Government and help many that are needy. One party thinks we will have to stop helping everyone in order to be successful. One party thinks the other parties are stupid and the only word they know is stupid.....:)

America is smarter than this. We need to stop political Corruption. Stop greed. Stop Ignorance. FORCE Equality!
 
Rationalist said:
That's all fine and dandy, but what does that mean practically speaking, i.e. what is its application in the real world?

It is not surprising that many of our founding fathers viewed government with suspicion; they hadn't a single example of good government to serve as a reference point. We've come a LONG way since that time. You may not like the governments of Norway and Denmark (which are twice the size of ours, proportionally speaking), but I don't think they are inherently more corrupt than ours - probably much less corrupt, actually.
Click to expand...

Norway ( i/ˈnɔrweɪ/; Norwegian: Norge (Bokmål) or Noreg (Nynorsk)), officially the Kingdom of Norway, is a Scandinavian unitary constitutional monarchy whose territory comprises the western portion of the Scandinavian Peninsula, Jan Mayen, the Arctic archipelago of Svalbard and the subantarctic Bouvet Island.[note 1] Norway has a total area of 385,252 square kilometres (148,747 sq mi) and a population of about 5 million.[9] It is the second least densely populated country in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway

According to 2012 figures from Statistics Denmark, 89.6% of Denmark’s population of over 5,580,516 was of Danish descent.[1][2] Many of the remaining 10.4% were immigrants—or descendants of recent immigrants—near half of whom are from the neighbouring Scandinavian countries and Germany. Others include people from Turkey, Iraq, Somalia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, South Asia, and from the Middle East. More than 590 000 individuals (10.4%)[2][3] are migrants and their descendants (142 000 second generation migrants born in Denmark[3]).
Of these 590 000[2] immigrants and their descendants:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Denmark

It seems that Norway and Denmark in the grand scheme of things compared to America are like two bb’s in a world of bowling balls. With 5 million populations each they exhibit a mere fraction of population relative to 300 million Americans. The entire populations of those countries could be “the government” without providing the same opportunities for corruption in government that we have here in America.

America’s federal government alone is more than half the size of the populations of Norway and Denmark.

To boot, the governments of those small Scandinavian nations is so, so much more “local” to their populations than the American federal government is to America’s population. A good rule of thumb is that the more local the government the less likely the corruption because government’s officials are better known and more easily accessible to local populations.
 
Anti-Party said:
People need to learn the difference between American Objectives and Corporate Objectives.

Then we wouldn't have to choose between helping someone who is blind vs. helping Corporations profit via "building tanks"

Every American wants the same thing yet we all have different paths we think we should take to get it. One party thinks we can take the path with Government and help many that are needy. One party thinks we will have to stop helping everyone in order to be successful. One party thinks the other parties are stupid and the only word they know is stupid.....:)

America is smarter than this. We need to stop political Corruption. Stop greed. Stop Ignorance. FORCE Equality!
Click to expand...
FORCING equality is NOT the governments job. That is called socialism and it's a failure on it's face before it ever gets implemented. Governments job is to ensure everyone the equal opportunity to succeed. nothing more, nothing less.
 
Classic Liberal said:
Norway ( i/ˈnɔrweɪ/; Norwegian: Norge (Bokmål) or Noreg (Nynorsk)), officially the Kingdom of Norway, is a Scandinavian unitary constitutional monarchy whose territory comprises the western portion of the Scandinavian Peninsula, Jan Mayen, the Arctic archipelago of Svalbard and the subantarctic Bouvet Island.[note 1] Norway has a total area of 385,252 square kilometres (148,747 sq mi) and a population of about 5 million.[9] It is the second least densely populated country in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway

According to 2012 figures from Statistics Denmark, 89.6% of Denmark’s population of over 5,580,516 was of Danish descent.[1][2] Many of the remaining 10.4% were immigrants—or descendants of recent immigrants—near half of whom are from the neighbouring Scandinavian countries and Germany. Others include people from Turkey, Iraq, Somalia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, South Asia, and from the Middle East. More than 590 000 individuals (10.4%)[2][3] are migrants and their descendants (142 000 second generation migrants born in Denmark[3]).
Of these 590 000[2] immigrants and their descendants:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Denmark

It seems that Norway and Denmark in the grand scheme of things compared to America are like two bb’s in a world of bowling balls. With 5 million populations each they exhibit a mere fraction of population relative to 300 million Americans. The entire populations of those countries could be “the government” without providing the same opportunities for corruption in government that we have here in America.

America’s federal government alone is more than half the size of the populations of Norway and Denmark.

To boot, the governments of those small Scandinavian nations is so, so much more “local” to their populations than the American federal government is to America’s population. A good rule of thumb is that the more local the government the less likely the corruption because government’s officials are better known and more easily accessible to local populations.
Click to expand...

Relative to their population, both Norway and Denmark have enormous governments. Your response is that big governments that support a small number of people are OK. Are there any other exceptions to your "Small government=small corruption. BIG government=BIG corruption" rule that we should know about?
 
SmarterthanYou said:
FORCING equality is NOT the governments job. That is called socialism and it's a failure on it's face before it ever gets implemented. Governments job is to ensure everyone the equal opportunity to succeed. nothing more, nothing less.
Click to expand...

Then our current system (political OR economic) is a failure. Because we do not have equal opportunity. Not when so much of the opportunity is dependent on who your parents are and what their wealth is.

America has long been seen--by its citizens and the world--as the place where anyone can make it. And yet studies from the past two decades all point to a different reality. Economic mobility in the U.S. is low compared with what it was in times past and with current levels in many European countries and Canada. It is particularly sticky at the two ends of the economic ladder. Rich people rarely become poor in a generation--and the poorest seldom get rich. Despite the rags-to-riches myth, such stories are the exception. A comprehensive study by the Pew Economic Mobility Project documents that in the U.S. today, few poor people become even upper middle class...

"Research shows that it's really a myth that the U.S. is a land of exceptional social mobility."

Pfeffer's own research illustrates this point based on data on two generations of families in the U.S. and a comparison of his findings to similar data from Germany and Sweden. The U.S. data come from the ISR Panel Study of Income Dynamics, a survey of a nationally representative sample that started with 5,000 U.S. families in 1968.

He found that parental wealth plays an important role in whether children move up or down the socioeconomic ladder in adulthood. And that parental wealth has an influence above and beyond the three factors that sociologists and economists have traditionally considered in research on social mobility -- parental education, income and occupation.

"Wealth not only fulfills a purchasing function, allowing families to buy homes in good neighborhoods and send their children to costly schools and colleges, for example, but it also has an insurance function, offering a sort of private safety net that gives children a very different set of choices as they enter the adult world," ...

THIS is NOT equal opportunity. I'm not saying equality should be forced or that life will ever be totally fair, but the US should AT LEAST be able to do as well as Canada or most European countries.


Sources:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120905141920.htm
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2136877,00.html#ixzz2VpL9F2We
http://business.time.com/2012/01/05/the-loss-of-upward-mobility-in-the-u-s/
 
Red Mule said:
Then our current system (political OR economic) is a failure. Because we do not have equal opportunity. Not when so much of the opportunity is dependent on who your parents are and what their wealth is.

America has long been seen--by its citizens and the world--as the place where anyone can make it. And yet studies from the past two decades all point to a different reality. Economic mobility in the U.S. is low compared with what it was in times past and with current levels in many European countries and Canada. It is particularly sticky at the two ends of the economic ladder. Rich people rarely become poor in a generation--and the poorest seldom get rich. Despite the rags-to-riches myth, such stories are the exception. A comprehensive study by the Pew Economic Mobility Project documents that in the U.S. today, few poor people become even upper middle class...

"Research shows that it's really a myth that the U.S. is a land of exceptional social mobility."

Pfeffer's own research illustrates this point based on data on two generations of families in the U.S. and a comparison of his findings to similar data from Germany and Sweden. The U.S. data come from the ISR Panel Study of Income Dynamics, a survey of a nationally representative sample that started with 5,000 U.S. families in 1968.

He found that parental wealth plays an important role in whether children move up or down the socioeconomic ladder in adulthood. And that parental wealth has an influence above and beyond the three factors that sociologists and economists have traditionally considered in research on social mobility -- parental education, income and occupation.

"Wealth not only fulfills a purchasing function, allowing families to buy homes in good neighborhoods and send their children to costly schools and colleges, for example, but it also has an insurance function, offering a sort of private safety net that gives children a very different set of choices as they enter the adult world," ...

THIS is NOT equal opportunity. I'm not saying equality should be forced or that life will ever be totally fair, but the US should AT LEAST be able to do as well as Canada or most European countries.


Sources:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120905141920.htm
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2136877,00.html#ixzz2VpL9F2We
http://business.time.com/2012/01/05/the-loss-of-upward-mobility-in-the-u-s/
Click to expand...

our current system is not the failure, it's the people running the system.
 
Anti-Party said:
People need to learn the difference between American Objectives and Corporate Objectives.

Then we wouldn't have to choose between helping someone who is blind vs. helping Corporations profit via "building tanks"

Every American wants the same thing yet we all have different paths we think we should take to get it. One party thinks we can take the path with Government and help many that are needy. One party thinks we will have to stop helping everyone in order to be successful. One party thinks the other parties are stupid and the only word they know is stupid.....:)

America is smarter than this. We need to stop political Corruption. Stop greed. Stop Ignorance. FORCE Equality!
Click to expand...
That's cute, and as likely as Napoleon dynamite beating labron in 1 on 1
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top