Bottom 20% spend $1.90 for $1.00 in wages

Let's start with the first one: Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.

False, according to the very source that is cited:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/recs/recs2001/hc_pdf/housunits/hc1-3a_hhincome2001.pdf

Roughly 1/3 (5.2 million our of 15 million) own their own home and roughly 20 percent of those "home owners" own mobile homes (1.1 million of the 5.2 owners). Further, 63% of those homes are 2 bedrooms or fewer. 65% of those homes have a total of 4 rooms or fewer. 81% have one or no bathrooms. Only 24% have a garage or carport.

Who is being misleading?

And really, do people need to be in total abject poverty or "dirt poor" to qualify as poverty-stricken in the United States? For Christ's sake, $10,400 per year for an individual and $20,000 for a family of four is living in poverty whether they're watching a color television or not.

Thanks for that info. I think that just having glanced at the list, the claim that 76% of poor households have an air-conditioning unit really jumped out at me. Firstly, it’s most likely as fraudlent as the claim you just debunked. Secondly, of whatever percentage of household that do have a unit, in a day and age where discount stores are reporting lower sales due to higher gas prices, does anyone believe they can AFFORD TO TURN THEM ON.

This thread is just, I don’t know. Stupefying? I guess it is relevant that Topper is the one who posted it.
 
Thanks for that info. I think that just having glanced at the list, the claim that 76% of poor households have an air-conditioning unit really jumped out at me. Firstly, it’s most likely as fraudlent as the claim you just debunked. Secondly, of whatever percentage of household that do have a unit, in a day and age where discount stores are reporting lower sales due to higher gas prices, does anyone believe they can AFFORD TO TURN THEM ON.

This thread is just, I don’t know. Stupefying? I guess it is relevant that Topper is the one who posted it.
Most of them would be swamp coolers attached on their mobile homes, and yes, they turn them on.
 
:D
Topper should be glad, because excessive spending kept the economy booming more than it should have had we been more prudent with our credit and purchases.
 
At least that's a coherent argument, although I would rely on institutions, groups, and organizations who support, work with, and monitor the poor to make judgements on who is actually poor. I seriously doubt the statistics from institutions like the Heritage Foundation and I seriously doubt that many poor people are watching premium cable channels, that 40% own their own homes, that 30% have 2 cars, or that a third have automatic dishwashers or have 2 rooms per person.

That's a report concucted to suit an agenda, not one designed to chronicle the life of poor Americans.

Here is an important caveat to that report which you may have missed ...
The Census Bureau defines an individual as poor if his or her family income falls below certain specified income thresholds. These thresholds vary by family size. In 2002, a family of four was deemed poor if its annual income fell below $18,556; a family of three was deemed poor if annual income was below $14,702. There are a number of problems with the Census Bureau's poverty figures: Census undercounts income, ignores assets accumulated in prior years, and disregards non-cash welfare such as food stamps and public housing in its official count of income. However, the most important problem with Census figures is that, even if a family's income falls below the official poverty thresholds, the family's actual living conditions are likely to be far higher than the image most Americans have in mind when they hear the word "poverty."


This report isn't talking about poor people or poverty, just those who have fallen belown almost $19,000.
That is the point of the article. The organizations that define poverty and determine who is defined as poor look at incomplete information. Your groups, organizations and institutes you talk about rely on census bureau information to guide their policy. They decide that if your income is below X for family size, you are poor.

Your own caveat, however, admits that when determining poverty level, non-cash assistance is not accounted for. And knowing a family first hand, I know what those non-cash programs add up to.

In monetary terms, taken from local conditions where I live, a family of three (single parent with two children under school age) the monthly non-cash benefits available are:

A three bedroom apartment (because the children are of opposite gender) worth $750 if rented w/o housing assistance, but reduced to $25 because she is classified as poor.

$332 in food stamps plus $135 in WIC vouchers. That's a total of $467 for food. My son's family of four has less than that in their grocery budget feeding two teenagers!

$360/mo per child daycare assistance.

Then they also get $326 cash payments from another housing assistance agency.

The adult works p/t at Walmart, and gets about $620/mo net pay. Out of that $620, she pays for cable TV that includes 3 premium channels, a cell phone service that includes unlimited text messaging and other add-ons ($87 phone bill) and a premium cable internet service. Every year for the past 3 years she has gotten over $2500 back from her tax return due to child tax credits and earned income credit. This year she got over $3500 because of the second child.

Every year she spends her tax return getting a different car. Used, but usually quite nice, with about a $250/mo payment that also comes out of her paycheck.

I know this situation quite intimately because the adult I am talking about is my youngest niece of my youngest sister. She is almost constantly broke and always asking me for help, because she wastes her money on non-necessities. She comes to me because her mother abandoned her when she was 15, and ran away with some shyster asshole about 6 years ago. Her dead beat father is in jail. (Typical Native American family, according to many locals here.)

My son has a 3 bedroom house also, which he is paying for. He is on his 12th year of a 30 year mortgage. (Thank GOD he didn't fall for one of those mortgage plans that calls for a big interest increase and balloon payment!!) He has two cars because both he and his wife are teachers who work in different schools. Both cars are over 10 years old. They choose not to afford cable TV, and get DSL with their land line phone service, only because the combined package is cheaper than paying for two lines and a dial up service.

My son has followed in my footsteps, and purchases almost nothing on credit. His house and doctor bills are his only regular monthly payments. But his wife got sick a couple years back, and even though they had good insurance from the school district, they ended up with a big pile of medical bills.


As a recently retired member of the Marine Corps, I was involved with Toys for Tots for almost 30 years. Toys for Tots also relied on the agencies you describe as knowing who is poor to determine who got on our list.

Of those 30 years I was involved, 15 of them I helped to deliver the toys to the homes on our list. In about 3 of 4 of the cases the families receiving toys from Toys for Tots were enjoying better living conditions than many whom would be considered middle class. I saw it first hand, newer cars, bigger than average TVs getting HBO and Cinemax, and all the other items described in the article you are disregarding.

I have other experiences seeing first hand how our society is mis-defining poverty. You can go ahead and rely on reports from your so-called expert agencies, but I'll rely on the reality of experience.

But think about this: If we were to redefine poverty to match the definition of poverty through out the rest of the world, these agencies would have far less to do, wouldn't they? And less to do means certain workers who run around telling us how bad things are, would no longer have jobs.

(Not to mention who would the poor vote for if they weren't told how bad off they are, and who is available to help them?)
 
That is the point of the article. The organizations that define poverty and determine who is defined as poor look at incomplete information. Your groups, organizations and institutes you talk about rely on census bureau information to guide their policy. They decide that if your income is below X for family size, you are poor.

Your own caveat, however, admits that when determining poverty level, non-cash assistance is not accounted for. And knowing a family first hand, I know what those non-cash programs add up to.

In monetary terms, taken from local conditions where I live, a family of three (single parent with two children under school age) the monthly non-cash benefits available are:

A three bedroom apartment (because the children are of opposite gender) worth $750 if rented w/o housing assistance, but reduced to $25 because she is classified as poor.

$332 in food stamps plus $135 in WIC vouchers. That's a total of $467 for food. My son's family of four has less than that in their grocery budget feeding two teenagers!

$360/mo per child daycare assistance.

Then they also get $326 cash payments from another housing assistance agency.

The adult works p/t at Walmart, and gets about $620/mo net pay. Out of that $620, she pays for cable TV that includes 3 premium channels, a cell phone service that includes unlimited text messaging and other add-ons ($87 phone bill) and a premium cable internet service. Every year for the past 3 years she has gotten over $2500 back from her tax return due to child tax credits and earned income credit. This year she got over $3500 because of the second child.

Every year she spends her tax return getting a different car. Used, but usually quite nice, with about a $250/mo payment that also comes out of her paycheck.

I know this situation quite intimately because the adult I am talking about is my youngest niece of my youngest sister. She is almost constantly broke and always asking me for help, because she wastes her money on non-necessities. She comes to me because her mother abandoned her when she was 15, and ran away with some shyster asshole about 6 years ago. Her dead beat father is in jail. (Typical Native American family, according to many locals here.)

My son has a 3 bedroom house also, which he is paying for. He is on his 12th year of a 30 year mortgage. (Thank GOD he didn't fall for one of those mortgage plans that calls for a big interest increase and balloon payment!!) He has two cars because both he and his wife are teachers who work in different schools. Both cars are over 10 years old. They choose not to afford cable TV, and get DSL with their land line phone service, only because the combined package is cheaper than paying for two lines and a dial up service.

My son has followed in my footsteps, and purchases almost nothing on credit. His house and doctor bills are his only regular monthly payments. But his wife got sick a couple years back, and even though they had good insurance from the school district, they ended up with a big pile of medical bills.


As a recently retired member of the Marine Corps, I was involved with Toys for Tots for almost 30 years. Toys for Tots also relied on the agencies you describe as knowing who is poor to determine who got on our list.

Of those 30 years I was involved, 15 of them I helped to deliver the toys to the homes on our list. In about 3 of 4 of the cases the families receiving toys from Toys for Tots were enjoying better living conditions than many whom would be considered middle class. I saw it first hand, newer cars, bigger than average TVs getting HBO and Cinemax, and all the other items described in the article you are disregarding.

I have other experiences seeing first hand how our society is mis-defining poverty. You can go ahead and rely on reports from your so-called expert agencies, but I'll rely on the reality of experience.

But think about this: If we were to redefine poverty to match the definition of poverty through out the rest of the world, these agencies would have far less to do, wouldn't they? And less to do means certain workers who run around telling us how bad things are, would no longer have jobs.

(Not to mention who would the poor vote for if they weren't told how bad off they are, and who is available to help them?)

Again, I appreciate your perspective, but I grew up poor and I know what poor looks, tastes, and feels like. I remember my mother having to hide our small black and white TV because the caseworker was coming. I guess we weren't poor if we had a TV.

Your neice and her situation notwithstanding, there are millions of seriously poor, can't find adequate shelter, can't buy food, and can't take care of their children Americans who need help, and with all due respect, I fail to see how focusing on those who may need financial counseling does anything to address the real problems of poverty in America.

All groups and institutions dealing with the issue of poverty do not use census statistics, nor do they judge simply on the basis of income level. They have boots on the ground and are looking at the problem from the reality of where people are, not what simple statistics may suggest.

Nor are all of the poor simply lazy or ignorant, which I'm not suggesting you've intimated. Many are victims of circumstance, such as a laid-off worker whose unemployment insurance has run out, or a family recovering from serious illness.

The people you encountered while delivering toys don't appear to be poor, but that does not in any way contridict the reality that there are millions of legitimately poor Americans and poverty is a real issue.

At what point in the conversation about the poor do we actually concentrate on the poor.
 
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wow the sky is falling, millions who can't find food or shelter.
BS to the max moveon.turbo-lib has a new star his name is blackas
 
wow the sky is falling, millions who can't find food or shelter.
BS to the max moveon.turbo-lib has a new star his name is blackas

This thread has taken too many turns to address in one post. You still haven't addressed how spending beyond their means is a good thing. Incomes have stalled, unemployment is increasing and you think incurring more debt in the face of hte current mortgage crisis is a good thing? WTF are you smoking?
 
Anything that helps corporations is good for Topper.
But he does not realize payment is always due and the longer deferred the greater the pain to all.
 
usged I realize you didn't get to school.
Tiana are you projecting, of couse I didn't say any of those.
The point is the average recession is only 10months and we usuall gain big in the stock market on the tail end of them.
They are necessary to curb excesses.
 
Again, I appreciate your perspective, but I grew up poor and I know what poor looks, tastes, and feels like. I remember my mother having to hide our small black and white TV because the caseworker was coming. I guess we weren't poor if we had a TV.

Your neice and her situation notwithstanding, there are millions of seriously poor, can't find adequate shelter, can't buy food, and can't take care of their children Americans who need help, and with all due respect, I fail to see how focusing on those who may need financial counseling does anything to address the real problems of poverty in America.

All groups and institutions dealing with the issue of poverty do not use census statistics, nor do they judge simply on the basis of income level. They have boots on the ground and are looking at the problem from the reality of where people are, not what simple statistics may suggest.

Nor are all of the poor simply lazy or ignorant, which I'm not suggesting you've intimated. Many are victims of circumstance, such as a laid-off worker whose unemployment insurance has run out, or a family recovering from serious illness.

The people you encountered while delivering toys don't appear to be poor, but that does not in any way contridict the reality that there are millions of legitimately poor Americans and poverty is a real issue.

At what point in the conversation about the poor do we actually concentrate on the poor.
That was my earlier point. We need to redefine what poor means so the resources we have can go to help those who truly need it instead of being stretched beyond bearance on those whose main problem is having poor priorities in their spending habits.

There also needs to be separate, and IMO a bit more strict, rules for dealing with those temporarily down on their luck from layoffs or such. Paying for their house while they wait for a job that probably won't come back anytime soon is not what a hand up is about. If they get out there and help themselves with a lower paying job, some reasonable additional assistance in the form of zero interest loans should be available so they do not lose their home. Then when they do get on their feet, they can pay the zero interest loans back at a rate that won't dent their new budget. But like helping the truly poor, I am not talking about helping pay for their home while they waste a couple hundred a month on luxuries.

Like many other aspects of government, we could do more with less if we did it efficiently.

BTW: I know what poor is too. Grew up in a two room (not two bedroom, mind you, two rooms total) shack just off the edge of the reservation with two parents, three siblings and a grandmother. If we hadn't poached a couple deer each year I don't know what we would have eaten.

Luckily the land owner of the place we were squatting was sympathetic and looked the other way when we built a large vegetable garden. He even hired my brother and I to do odd jobs once in a while. Good man. I cried when I heard he had died.
 
That was my earlier point. We need to redefine what poor means so the resources we have can go to help those who truly need it instead of being stretched beyond bearance on those whose main problem is having poor priorities in their spending habits.

There also needs to be separate, and IMO a bit more strict, rules for dealing with those temporarily down on their luck from layoffs or such. Paying for their house while they wait for a job that probably won't come back anytime soon is not what a hand up is about. If they get out there and help themselves with a lower paying job, some reasonable additional assistance in the form of zero interest loans should be available so they do not lose their home. Then when they do get on their feet, they can pay the zero interest loans back at a rate that won't dent their new budget. But like helping the truly poor, I am not talking about helping pay for their home while they waste a couple hundred a month on luxuries.

Like many other aspects of government, we could do more with less if we did it efficiently.

BTW: I know what poor is too. Grew up in a two room (not two bedroom, mind you, two rooms total) shack just off the edge of the reservation with two parents, three siblings and a grandmother. If we hadn't poached a couple deer each year I don't know what we would have eaten.

Luckily the land owner of the place we were squatting was sympathetic and looked the other way when we built a large vegetable garden. He even hired my brother and I to do odd jobs once in a while. Good man. I cried when I heard he had died.

There are lots of organizations who do look specifically at he actual poor.

They don't need redefinition of who is actually poor and suffering.

What is required is looking at those they help, not the phony statistics of groups like the Heritage Foundation which has no interest in helping the poor under any circumstances.
 
There are lots of organizations who do look specifically at he actual poor.

They don't need redefinition of who is actually poor and suffering.

What is required is looking at those they help, not the phony statistics of groups like the Heritage Foundation which has no interest in helping the poor under any circumstances.
What is needed is for the government programs to use the information from these organizations you claim look specifically at the poor. It would prevent a lot of waste.
 
Give to charities on the local level or to specific needy individuals. The best way to route money with less being eat up by overhead.

I give away $200 each month to needy individuals and families. I route it thru the guy that runs the corner grocery. A sealed envelope with the money and a note to just pass on the favor to someone else if they ever can and explaining that the owner does not know who gave it.

I do not need the gratitude nor want people hitting me up for money.

In a more urban setting you would be best to use the food bank, or other good charity.
 
Give to charities on the local level or to specific needy individuals. The best way to route money with less being eat up by overhead.

I give away $200 each month to needy individuals and families. I route it thru the guy that runs the corner grocery. A sealed envelope with the money and a note to just pass on the favor to someone else if they ever can and explaining that the owner does not know who gave it.

I do not need the gratitude nor want people hitting me up for money.

In a more urban setting you would be best to use the food bank, or other good charity.
Giving to charities is great. If one chooses the charities carefully, one can do a lot more good with fewer dollars than the government - especially the federal government - ever dreamed of.

But we'd all have more available to give to charities if our taxes were not supporting bloated and wasteful government assistance programs.
 
Give to charities on the local level or to specific needy individuals. The best way to route money with less being eat up by overhead.

I give away $200 each month to needy individuals and families. I route it thru the guy that runs the corner grocery. A sealed envelope with the money and a note to just pass on the favor to someone else if they ever can and explaining that the owner does not know who gave it.

I do not need the gratitude nor want people hitting me up for money.

In a more urban setting you would be best to use the food bank, or other good charity.

US, uhmmm...

Are you entirely sure the grocer isn't just pocketing the money for himself?
 
If the private model is so efficient, why not simply ask your representative to submit a bill to model a specific welfare agency after said private model?
 
If welfare which gives to the poor is so bad for the economy, why is charity so good for the economy? Isn't it also bad for the economy, since it gives the lazy louts just another reason to refuse to find a job and buy more cadillacs, living happily and carefree without a worry in the world while we slave to sustain them?
 
If welfare which gives to the poor is so bad for the economy, why is charity so good for the economy? Isn't it also bad for the economy, since it gives the lazy louts just another reason to refuse to find a job and buy more cadillacs, living happily and carefree without a worry in the world while we slave to sustain them?
Because welfare results in bloated, wasteful bureaucracies which rarely manage to place more than 30% of the monies placed in the welfare program out to the people the program was created to assist. Since there is a certain level of need by the people welfare is designed to assist, the waste places an unhealthy tax burden on the economy, with most of those taxes being used to support the bureaucracy rather than assist the people.

Charities are much more efficient (especially charities run by organizations whose infrastructures are already paid for by other means), and are run off of voluntary contributions. Since the contributions are voluntary, they do not interfere with the individual's desire for goods and services. Tax burdens quite often interfere with and reduce the purchasing power of the middle and lower classes. (but no poverty classes because they rarely pay taxes, and not the wealthy because they do not spend all of their income.)

But the middle class and lower classes represent the majority of purchasing in an economy. As such, reducing that base of purchasing power via forced contributions to welfare is harmful to the total economy.
 
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