Can you go into some detail about what you mean by informal social controls?
Christofacists at it again
- Thread starter LadyT
- Start date
Can you go into some detail about what you mean by informal social controls?
homeless people don't watch tv, no need to waste advertising the shelter or food line... for them...word of mouth works...
or the smell of foodPlease think about this for second....
Who out of those voting parishioners, have tax free status? ANSWER: no one but the Priiest or Pastor.
Every single one of those people that we differ with pay every dime in taxes that they owe to the us government, (unless they are cheating). None of these people get any kind of special tax break because they are a member of a Church and the Church is tax exempt.
Why on earth WOULD YOU want to punish these people for just being FREE, FREE to vote as they please...? they pay what you pay in taxes? Even if this means that they vote for an idiot? It's their vote!
The NRA supported President Bush, another non profit membership organization...should you take their non profit staus away from them too? And I don't know if you know any members to the NRA but holy moly, they are just as religious about their cause as the most right wing nutszoid out there....lol, imho!
By pursuing silly things like this over EVERYTHING ELSE THAT IS GOING ON OUT THERE, seems nothing less than vindictive towards a group of people, just because they are dumb or because they differ with YOU or with Tiana?
And I just can't take part in this....and I don't even go to church and haven't in years, (ok...confession time....but i feel like i should be going...) Regardless!
The only people that will get hurt out of not allowing Churches to be tax exempt if they don't allow women Priests are the poor, the sick, the needy and the stranger....
and I could never live with myself, if I would let something like that happen...especially when our own government is not there, IN MANY OF THESE CASES to help the needy, those in the donut hole.... and I choose to spend my charity where it is BEST SPENT and it is a PROVEN FACT that nearly every cent on the dollar donated to something like the Catholic or Jewish Charities, goes directly to the needy themselves....unlike many secular charities where they pay their ceo's, ceo salaries....
In addition to this, where does the constitution come in to this....doesn't it mean anything when it comes to this....?
And on top of this, I don't want the government thru some convoluted tax policy, controlling the DOCTRINE of any established church....you are playing with fire in my opinion, with the constitution itself on several grounds imho.
There are bigger fish to fry imho, than to amend our constitution so that you all can have control over these people and their PRIVATE VOTE is beyond reasoning to me...unless I am seeing it wrong?
and all because a woman that was a volunteer sunday school teacher was supposedly dismissed of her voluntary job because this Church that she was a voluntary member of, decided to modify their church doctrine.....
cut me a break....
to want the government to change all laws because of this discriminatory thing that doesn't even involve a paid job with is just plain silly...
I don't mean to offend anyone, really, I don't....but jesus, mary and joseph...why so much hatred towards these people? so much so, that they are willing to harm the very people (the needy and the sick and the homeless) that they CLAIM moral ownage to...and when it comes to others helping them...they want to eliminate it? all because they make dumb votes? and you don't even punish these people that made the dumb vote, you punish the needy by making less money avail to the charity to use...?
AND WHY if we live in a free country would YOU EVEN BE TRYING to curb a fellow citizen from thinking freely and being free...even if they differ with you?
Big government is BAD when you manipulate and use it for these kind of issues imho.
care
You're not offending me Care. I understand your passion about the poor that they help. I myself, would much rather work towards a country wherein the Church's help was not so needed. A country with a far stronger, wider and bigger social safety net. However, as things stand now, certainly, that is a concern.
Still...you seem to believe that they do no harm. That these are just their "private" thoughts. That I strongly disagree with. Many of these sects are working very hard towards turning back the clock on women's rights. And they are not botherng themselves over the constitution. They will do it in our very schools if we do not fight them tooth and nail. In our school books, and lessons, and through their own hand-picked teachers, they will teach young girls that they are nothing but the slave to their man. They take over school boards all across this nation, and that is where they do their most grevious harm. And they love it. And they smile, and they fight for yet more.
And they are not harmless, and this is not about their private thoughts, and they must be stopped.
I would kick your ass from one room to the next if you ever pulled any of your manly man crap on me, and you my boy, better choose wisely when you choose a girl, because a lot of us are much stronger than we look. And you, are one little boy who needs an ass kicking.
That's hot.
LOL
IHateGovernment
Is this your homework?
Can you go into some detail about what you mean by informal social controls?
Sure. Informal social controls are basically using our own power of association in order to encourage certain behavior and discourage others. For the church in question we can encourage the congregants to speak out against the church hierarchy. We can refuse to contribute monetarily to that church. We can use the press. We can blacklist the man responsible and publically shun him.
Sure. Informal social controls are basically using our own power of association in order to encourage certain behavior and discourage others. For the church in question we can encourage the congregants to speak out against the church hierarchy. We can refuse to contribute monetarily to that church. We can use the press. We can blacklist the man responsible and publically shun him.
but they look at you and your groups like pro abortion rights groups, like the aclu etc as hurting society, for all of us....
so if you want your right to support your CAUSES, then they have the right to do the same....no?
it seems that if you really love freedom, you would respect THEIR rights to do such...
There's alot of looney membership groups out there that you are not trying to curb....like NAMBLA, that I know you don't support....so that boils down to you and others, wanting to squash these people ONLY because they are a strong group? And just because they are a strong group that you oppose or I oppose is NOT good enough of a reason in the Land of the Free...
And once you have determined that you want to bend our constitution so that you can squash these people, then the constitution can be bent in the future to squash your rights....
And they do no harm to the constitution or the system....if anything, they are a symbol of what Our constitution stands for....
They are not winning Darla....I agree with Dano completely on this one and only thing!
And they can't harm you or your causes.....The supreme court with alito and the good looking one...oh yeah, john Roberts....now they can hurt ya....
We have Freedom of Religion in this country of ours....I'd like to keep it that way....otherwise tyranny....
I believe they have been winning, though that tide is beginning to turn. They resemble Muslim fanatics in more than one way, but the way that comes to mind here is that it doesn't matter if they are "winning" at this moment anyway. If they're losing, they'll simply regroup and wait. And wait. And wait. They will wait for as long as they need to, but they will always be back to hit you harder than the last hit they gave you, that didn't win it for them.
As for NAMBLA, I'll tell you right now, if they enjoy tax exempt status (and I hope they do not), I am on recored as saying, revoke it.
Lastly, in regards to what the far right religious authoritarians think of, or how they view, groups like the ACLU; I don't care. In fact, I couldn't possibly care less. I hope yo don't mind my saying that I think you are conflating these authoritarians I am speaking of with religious people such as yourself and Immie, and I am not doing that. The differences are very clear in my mind. And also, you say you feel guilt over not attending church? Do you think you might be tending to overreacting, over-identifying, and over-protecting those who do because of that feeling?
Because you seem to be taking this a bit personally, and it's in no way meant that way, I assure you.
As for NAMBLA, I'll tell you right now, if they enjoy tax exempt status (and I hope they do not), I am on recored as saying, revoke it.
Lastly, in regards to what the far right religious authoritarians think of, or how they view, groups like the ACLU; I don't care. In fact, I couldn't possibly care less. I hope yo don't mind my saying that I think you are conflating these authoritarians I am speaking of with religious people such as yourself and Immie, and I am not doing that. The differences are very clear in my mind. And also, you say you feel guilt over not attending church? Do you think you might be tending to overreacting, over-identifying, and over-protecting those who do because of that feeling?
Because you seem to be taking this a bit personally, and it's in no way meant that way, I assure you.
Ok, I see what you mean. You make a good argument, and honestly I can go either way on this. I mean, I do see Tiana's point, and I do tend to lean towards her though. If I were the judge, I'd be torn, so you'd both have to dance for me, as the deciding factor.
OrnotBitwise
Watermelon
WARNING: I'm about to be serious. I know, it doesn't happen often. That's why I always like to give everyone a "heads up" PSA.
I actually find it painful when someone like Immie or Care or Klaatu takes something I say as being "anti-Christian" or anti-religion. I don't blame them: it's only natural given my consistently flippant -- and inflammatory -- mode of posting. If, that is, one loses sight of the fact that I'm almost always overstating for effect on forums like this.
Guys, we really do see the difference between the theocratic extremists, and their authoritarian allies, and most Christian people. It's their doing that the debate has been cast as Christian vs. Liberal. that's exactly what they want us to believe. That's most especially what they want YOU to believe. This is why they try to appropriate the term "Christian" to mean only their sort of Christian.
They, the fundamentalists, are actively promoting what they think of as "culture war." They want to polarize society. They want to bring about a crisis. Don't buy into their propoganda: liberals are not out to get you, nor are we in the church burning business. In fact, the only church burners I know of are on their side, traditionally.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled bickering.
And the tarring/banishment of the leaders in churches happens all the time...if you think they can be vicious enemies in the public square against the left, you should see what they do when they have bickering and differences amongst themselves regarding Doctrine!
Why do you think there are so many Protestant (for the lack of a better word) Christian Churches?
Can you say.....UUUUUUUGGGGGLLLLYYYY! Just plain Ugly!
Let me tell ya....there's alot of people that must have gone through Sunday School lessons with this lady over the last 50 years....you are talking three generations of sunday schoolers sitting in church that probably had her as a teacher....they won't take kindly to this imo...
My BET, is that the Congregation either leaves this church over it or they run the Minister out of town and hire another one.....seen it happen one too many times...
And that is who should determine this situation with this older sunday school teacher...the members of this church....not our government....imo.
Why do you think there are so many Protestant (for the lack of a better word) Christian Churches?
Can you say.....UUUUUUUGGGGGLLLLYYYY! Just plain Ugly!
Let me tell ya....there's alot of people that must have gone through Sunday School lessons with this lady over the last 50 years....you are talking three generations of sunday schoolers sitting in church that probably had her as a teacher....they won't take kindly to this imo...
My BET, is that the Congregation either leaves this church over it or they run the Minister out of town and hire another one.....seen it happen one too many times...
And that is who should determine this situation with this older sunday school teacher...the members of this church....not our government....imo.
WARNING: I'm about to be serious. I know, it doesn't happen often. That's why I always like to give everyone a "heads up" PSA.
I actually find it painful when someone like Immie or Care or Klaatu takes something I say as being "anti-Christian" or anti-religion. I don't blame them: it's only natural given my consistently flippant -- and inflammatory -- mode of posting. If, that is, one loses sight of the fact that I'm almost always overstating for effect on forums like this.
Guys, we really do see the difference between the theocratic extremists, and their authoritarian allies, and most Christian people. It's their doing that the debate has been cast as Christian vs. Liberal. that's exactly what they want us to believe. That's most especially what they want YOU to believe. This is why they try to appropriate the term "Christian" to mean only their sort of Christian.
They, the fundamentalists, are actively promoting what they think of as "culture war." They want to polarize society. They want to bring about a crisis. Don't buy into their propoganda: liberals are not out to get you, nor are we in the church burning business. In fact, the only church burners I know of are on their side, traditionally.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled bickering.
Yes, I think this is true. I have struggled with it honestly. I have had such ugly experiences with those people. But I have come to the understanding that these so-called religious people, are actually far-right authoritarians, and though they might live in denial, God has little, if anything to do with them and with their methods.
Actual Christians, can be another kettle of fish, and though not all are my kettle of fish certainly, some of them I can see eye to eye on much with, especially the true followers of the words of Christ. Who after all, was apparantly a communist, and certainly, a pacifist. Surely he would find no home in today's republican party. I went to DC (I just thought of this story) two weekends ago for a protest march, and the most hateful people there were the ones who had the absolute gall to claim they were speaking in the name of Jesus Christ. I swear to God, this group of freaks, would beat you to death in the name of Christ, one of the most famous pacifists in all of history. They were just horrid. Screaming at Arabs that they were depraved and that they should go home to their own country (into a bullhorn by the way!), and mocking Mohammad. Disgusting. But they are not representative, the problem is, they are very loud, and they are very relentless, and they can, and sometimes do, win. They truly are not harmless.
It would be great if that's what happens, because not only would it solve this particular woman's problem, but it would send a loud message across the board.
Oh! Girlfriend, please....you are not offending me in any way....
I was screaming and yelling at these people every single day...telling them all that they think they are following their savior but instead they were following the antichrist, the false prophet that they are suppose to hate... just ask immie...he was one of those you speak of btw, but saw the light a year and a half ago....that he was being used by the bush administration...but it was still too late...he had already voted for the loon/savior of his twice....damn him on that...but, forgiveness is what I give now to him...because he has true REPENTENCE...
lol...hahaha...but man, I was screaming left and right at the Religious right, that they were being fooled by a man...not a savior....Believe me....I can empathize with your disdain for the whole situation....
And by all means go after these people if you wish on political grounds....form your own groups that go against them, which YOU HAVE DONE already, on political issues that you differ on....
But to use our own federal government to banish these people or their churches into oblivian is not the way to do it... do it fair and square and please do not include the Church in your battle.........they do much more good than you could possibly imagine.
One of my warnings to these Christian Righties was that they were making a huge mistake by getting involved in politics...because politics is dirty...which means that society would look upon them and Christ himself as dirty and scuzzy because they were Bringing Christ in to politics and not giving unto Caesar, what is his....
My fear was that politicians would use these churches and corrupt these people and the Word of God....and they did precisely that....
these churches did not come up with the idea to become involved in politics....some scuzzy politicians along with their fronts like pat robertson worked this whole thing out together in my opinion, behind the scenes
...including on how to technically get their parishioners involved....
But all of this, has nothing to do with the Church itself and what it does for society via the donations they take in to shelter the homeless, sick and needy....The people running those places are usually volunteers in the community they are placed in, not necessary just church members or even any church members...Democrats and Republicans and muslims and Jews and Athiests and Budhists etc.... everyone pulls together and politics is never discussed.... nor any part of it....
If you take away tax exempt status from Dnonations given to a Church, then you take away the tax deduction of giving to the homeless that I and millions of others make to help them and you make things much, much worse for them...the needy....and as I said, ESPECIALLy with all of the government handouts....for the needy being reduced year after year...
and if you take the tax exemp status away from the Churches helping the needy then you should also take it away from all other Charities out there...this is a domino effect....
you, (not necessarily you, but YOU in general
)are barking up the wrong tree on this issue of tax status....it will discourage giving...not a good thing.It is the same thing that warren buffet said about taking the estate tax away...that it would kill the majority of charity given because those wealthiest, would not donate as much of their estates to charity if they did not get the tax deduction for it imo....
care
I didn't really realize that it would take away the tax write off for people who donate to them. I never write off my donations...but that is probably because I've never really made enough to have a tax problem, and also because many of my donations (not all) are in cash to whoever asks me for money, even strangers who if they ask me for a dollar, I give 20 to. My ex used to get really mad at me for it (he was the one with money) but my current bf understands it (and he really doesn't have money, so go figure, you would think it would be the opposite going by who could afford it), and always says that it's ok he knows I can't help myself. But anyway, enough about my personal life, once I get going, you can find out a lot more than you would ever want to know, believe me.
The bottom line is, I hadn't thought about that, or how it would effect the poor. Again, I have to stress that if I had my druthers the poor wouldn't have to depend on charity, and that is what I actively work for. (I am an activist and am always doing one thing or another, if it's not marching, I'm writing letters, knocking on doors, getting petitions signed, etc). So I truly hope that we can change that in this country. But until then, I do understand your point, and it's an important consideration.
The bottom line is, I hadn't thought about that, or how it would effect the poor. Again, I have to stress that if I had my druthers the poor wouldn't have to depend on charity, and that is what I actively work for. (I am an activist and am always doing one thing or another, if it's not marching, I'm writing letters, knocking on doors, getting petitions signed, etc). So I truly hope that we can change that in this country. But until then, I do understand your point, and it's an important consideration.
WARNING: I'm about to be serious. I know, it doesn't happen often. That's why I always like to give everyone a "heads up" PSA.
I actually find it painful when someone like Immie or Care or Klaatu takes something I say as being "anti-Christian" or anti-religion. I don't blame them: it's only natural given my consistently flippant -- and inflammatory -- mode of posting. If, that is, one loses sight of the fact that I'm almost always overstating for effect on forums like this.
Guys, we really do see the difference between the theocratic extremists, and their authoritarian allies, and most Christian people. It's their doing that the debate has been cast as Christian vs. Liberal. that's exactly what they want us to believe. That's most especially what they want YOU to believe. This is why they try to appropriate the term "Christian" to mean only their sort of Christian.
They, the fundamentalists, are actively promoting what they think of as "culture war." They want to polarize society. They want to bring about a crisis. Don't buy into their propoganda: liberals are not out to get you, nor are we in the church burning business. In fact, the only church burners I know of are on their side, traditionally.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled bickering.
What you said: Ditto.
Most of us DO see the difference between authoritarian christian theocrats, and mainstream christians. I myself was raised in mainstream christian churches.
Ads are usually soliciting donations, not for the needy. This is a paper tiger, but the help isn't dismissed. One of the first things I look for before donating to charity is the percentage of actual help ratio. How much per dollar actually makes it to the intended recipient.homeless people don't watch tv, no need to waste advertising the shelter or food line... for them...word of mouth works...
I used to give to Canine Companions for Independence, when 98% of each dollar made it to the recipient. They are now at a 70% level, the 30% is for overhead and advertisement, they also charge extreme rates for their dogs... I now give to a local church program that does the same thing, they have no overhead as the pastor takes no pay and runs the program, and nobody is charged for the dogs....
Brent
Ahorrado por Gracia
Darla,
Christ did not condone robbing the rich to give to the poor; He suggested the rich should voluntarily help the poor. So much for Christ being a "communist." As for being a "pacifist," that is also false. Just because Christ wasn't a zealot who started a war doesn't mean He would be opposed to all wars. Certainly, as the book of Eccesiastes says, there is a time for war.
God doesn't like war, but war is a fact of life, and God always will use it to His glory.
Christ did not condone robbing the rich to give to the poor; He suggested the rich should voluntarily help the poor. So much for Christ being a "communist." As for being a "pacifist," that is also false. Just because Christ wasn't a zealot who started a war doesn't mean He would be opposed to all wars. Certainly, as the book of Eccesiastes says, there is a time for war.
God doesn't like war, but war is a fact of life, and God always will use it to His glory.
Oh! Girlfriend, please....you are not offending me in any way....
I was screaming and yelling at these people every single day...telling them all that they think they are following their savior but instead they were following the antichrist, the false prophet that they are suppose to hate... just ask immie...he was one of those you speak of btw, but saw the light a year and a half ago....that he was being used by the bush administration...but it was still too late...he had already voted for the loon/savior of his twice....damn him on that...but, forgiveness is what I give now to him...because he has true REPENTENCE...
Believe me....I can empathize with your disdain for the whole situation....
And by all means go after these people if you wish on political grounds....form your own groups that go against them, which YOU HAVE DONE already, on political issues that you differ on....
But to use our own federal government to banish these people or their churches into oblivian is not the way to do it... do it fair and square and please do not include the Church in your battle.........they do much more good than you could possibly imagine.
One of my warnings to these Christian Righties was that they were making a huge mistake by getting involved in politics...because politics is dirty...which means that society would look upon them and Christ himself as dirty and scuzzy because they were Bringing Christ in to politics and not giving unto Caesar, what is his....
My fear was that politicians would use these churches and corrupt these people and the Word of God....and they did precisely that....
these churches did not come up with the idea to become involved in politics....some scuzzy politicians along with their fronts like pat robertson worked this whole thing out together in my opinion, behind the scenes
...including on how to technically get their parishioners involved....
But all of this, has nothing to do with the Church itself and what it does for society via the donations they take in to shelter the homeless, sick and needy....The people running those places are usually volunteers in the community they are placed in, not necessary just church members or even any church members...Democrats and Republicans and muslims and Jews and Athiests and Budhists etc.... everyone pulls together and politics is never discussed.... nor any part of it....
If you take away tax exempt status from Dnonations given to a Church, then you take away the tax deduction of giving to the homeless that I and millions of others make to help them and you make things much, much worse for them...the needy....and as I said, ESPECIALLy with all of the government handouts....for the needy being reduced year after year...
and if you take the tax exemp status away from the Churches helping the needy then you should also take it away from all other Charities out there...this is a domino effect....
you, (not necessarily you, but YOU in general
It is the same thing that warren buffet said about taking the estate tax away...that it would kill the majority of charity given because those wealthiest, would not donate as much of their estates to charity if they did not get the tax deduction for it imo....
care
I think that's an irrational fear. If people are giving soley to get a tax deduction, they will simply find another organization that they can claim a deduction on like the red cross. WORST case scenario, a few gender biased organizations lose their tax exempt status, they still help the needy with the funds they get IN ADDITION to lessoning the tax burden for the rest of us and they contribute X% of their 'earnings' to medicaid, medicare and a plethora of other social programs - just like the rest of us - oh......the horror.
AnyOldIron
Atheist Missionary
They hate the Lord.....They're following orders from their master, Lucifer. I know this from experience.
I take my orders from Zeus, if you don't mind Brent. Unless it is thursday and then I follow Baal or a tuesday when I follow Skeletor from He-man
I take my orders from Zeus, if you don't mind Brent. Unless it is thursday and then I follow Baal or a tuesday when I follow Skeletor from He-man
Zues was just a "guise" of Mara to trick people into believing other than the Supreme Truth of Buddha...