Confucianism takes on Buddhism & Daoism

[Cypress]

Han Yu (768–824), born shortly after the An Lushan Rebellion, was a government official and extraordinary writer who tried to re-create the simple and direct literary style of ancient Chinese. In 805, he wrote “Essentials of the Moral Way” (or “An Inquiry on the Dao”), an essay that suggested Chinese civilization should be defined by Confucianism.

Han Yu criticized both Daoism and Buddhism: The world is real; there are absolute standards of right and wrong; and people have responsibilities to Family, nation, and society.

The real dao is the way of the ancient sage-kings.
Buddhism was a superstitious religion that brought chaos to Chinese culture. Han Yu was exiled for his beliefs.



Source credit- Grant Hardy Professor of philosophy and religious studies

 

[Cypress]

Han Yu's absolute, universal standards tracks pretty well the European enlightenment's pursuit of universalism and natural law.

 

[Mason Michaels]

Confucius say,"Tis better to be pissed off than pissed on"!

 

[Cypress]

Confucius say,"Tis better to be pissed off than pissed on"!

Obviously not, but interestingly, Confucius articulated a version of the Golden Rule 500 years before Jesus did.

 

[Celticguy]

Obviously not, but interestingly, Confucius articulated a version of the Golden Rule 500 years before Jesus did.

the Golden Rule is not Jesus' idea. It was essentially a jewish thought though it's like appears in lots of cultures.

Have not read Han Yu's work you mention but I suspect I could go with an absolute standard of right and wrong. Possibly even the family part but the government slant ? Nah. Nothing natural or ethical about government.

 

[Cypress]

the Golden Rule is not Jesus' idea. It was essentially a jewish thought though it's like appears in lots of cultures.

Have not read Han Yu's work you mention but I suspect I could go with an absolute standard of right and wrong. Possibly even the family part but the government slant ? Nah. Nothing natural or ethical about government.

I think there is a kernel of truth to a certain type of Dao, or universalism, with respect to some core moral principles.

The word nation does not refer to government. Strictly speaking, nation is a word which refers to a community of people bound by language, history, culture.

It is true that the Confucians believed in heirarchy and obligation to both family and to government.

But Confucius gets a bad rap by those who claim he promoted subservience to government. Confucius believed that bad government had lost the mandate of heaven, and that one had an obligation to speak truth to power when government became corrupt or unethical.

 

[Celticguy]

I think there is a kernel of truth to a certain type of Dao, or universalism, with respect to some core moral principles.

The word nation does not refer to government. Strictly speaking, nation is a word which refers to a community of people bound by language, history, culture.

It is true that the Confucians believed in heirarchy and obligation to both family and to government.

But Confucius gets a bad rap by those who claim he promoted subservience to government. Confucius believed that bad government had lost the mandate of heaven, and that one had an obligation to speak truth to power when government became corrupt or unethical.

C-man had to leave filial piety in the mix it was so ingrained into the culture.
Still dont think I can go for the re-imagined definition of nation (basically culture). Right and wrong is not a cultural thing. IMO of course.

 

[Cypress]

C-man had to leave filial piety in the mix it was so ingrained into the culture.
Still dont think I can go for the re-imagined definition of nation (basically culture). Right and wrong is not a cultural thing. IMO of course.

For sure.
Confucian thought sees obligation to family and society as the fundamental basis of a well-ordered civilization, as opposed to pursuit of individual self-interest. That is why it sort of sounds discordant to western ears.

Re: right vs wrong. I think the Dao, the natural law, the Dharma, whatever you want to call it, is an expression of a type of universalism people sense, by virtue of being human, in the moral order of things.

^^ I think there is a kernel of truth lurking there, at least.

 

[Celticguy]

For sure.
Confucian thought sees obligation to family and society as the fundamental basis of a well-ordered civilization, as opposed to pursuit of individual self-interest. That is why it sort of sounds discordant to western ears.

Re: right vs wrong. I think the Dao, the natural law, the Dharma, whatever you want to call it, is an expression of a type of universalism people sense, by virtue of being human, in the moral order of things.

^^ I think there is a kernel of truth lurking there, at least.

On a personal level I do like the idea of obligation to family. Western culture has been slipping away from that and if the worse for it. I stop it there as I think that along with absolutes in right and wrong provides
any need impact on society.

 

[Cypress]

On a personal level I do like the idea of obligation to family. Western culture has been slipping away from that and if the worse for it. I stop it there as I think that along with absolutes in right and wrong provides
any need impact on society.

That was always the source of tension between Confucianism and Buddhism in China. Confucian thought foresaw a deep obligation to be an active agent in a heirarchical, well ordered society and that harmony in the dao was achieved by cultivating filial piety.

Buddhism always foresaw a type of spiritual withdrawal from all desire and attachment, which ultimately ends up meaning the downgrading of family, civic duty, and societal obligation

 

[Damocles]

the Golden Rule is not Jesus' idea. It was essentially a jewish thought though it's like appears in lots of cultures.

Have not read Han Yu's work you mention but I suspect I could go with an absolute standard of right and wrong. Possibly even the family part but the government slant ? Nah. Nothing natural or ethical about government.

Hammurabi had to be the first mention of a "do unto others" that we know of... It isn't a difficult concept.

 

[Celticguy]

That was always the source of tension between Confucianism and Buddhism in China. Confucian thought foresaw a deep obligation to be an active agent in a heirarchical, well ordered society and that harmony in the dao was achieved by cultivating filial piety.

Buddhism always foresaw a type of spiritual withdrawal from all desire and attachment, which ultimately ends up meaning the downgrading of family, civic duty, and societal obligation

whoa up there hoss ! being a monk is all well and good if thats your chosen path but EVERYBODY cant be one. need farmers, vendors, doctors lawyers and indian chiefs !

 

[Kamala Trump]

Han Yu (768–824), born shortly after the An Lushan Rebellion, was a government official and extraordinary writer who tried to re-create the simple and direct literary style of ancient Chinese. In 805, he wrote “Essentials of the Moral Way” (or “An Inquiry on the Dao”), an essay that suggested Chinese civilization should be defined by Confucianism.

Han Yu criticized both Daoism and Buddhism: The world is real; there are absolute standards of right and wrong; and people have responsibilities to Family, nation, and society.

The real dao is the way of the ancient sage-kings.
Buddhism was a superstitious religion that brought chaos to Chinese culture. Han Yu was exiled for his beliefs.



Source credit- Grant Hardy Professor of philosophy and religious studies

Yes.

good battle

Confucianism is an elitist ideology meant for government functionaries. and makes the gross mistakes of religion

taoism and buddhism are not that, and thus superior. taoism and buddhism represent spirituality, which knows the devil is in the details.

confusionism

 

[Kamala Trump]

The philosophy of the Tao is one of the two great principal components of Chinese thought. There are of course quite a number of forms of Chinese philosophy, but there are two great currents which have fairly molded the culture of China and they are Taoism and Confucianism. And they play a curious game with each other. Let me start by saying something about Confucianism originating with confluence of Confucius who lived approximately a little after six hundred thirty B.C.. He’s often supposed to have been a contemporary of Lao Tzu, who is the supposed founder of the Taoist way, but it seems more likely that Lao Tzu lived later than four hundred, according to most modern scholars. Confucianism is not a religion. It’s a social ritual. And a way of ordering society. So much so that the first great Catholic missionary to China Matteo Ricci was a Jesuit found it perfectly consistent with his Catholicism to participate in Confucian rituals because he saw them as something of a kind of national character as one might pay respect to the flag or something of that kind in our own times. But he found that Confucianism involved no conflict with Catholicism no commitment to any belief or dogma that would be at variance with the Catholic faith.



So Confucianism is an order of society and involves ideas of human relations including the government and the family based on the principle of what is called in Chinese rin, although Joshua will notice that I never get my tones right. Which is an extraordinarily interesting word. I’m going to put some of these things on the whiteboard. This is the word rin in Chinese, and it’s often translated benevolence, but that’s not a good translation at all. This word means human heartedness. That’s the nearest we can get to it in English. And it was regarded by Confucius as the highest of all virtues but one that he always refused to define. It’s above righteousness and justice and propriety and other great confusion virtues and it involves the principle that human nature is a fundamentally good arrangement. Including not only our virtuous side, but also our passionate side also our appetites in our way witness. The Hebrews have over a term which they call the yetzer hara Y E T Z E R H A R A. Which means the wayward inclination, or what I like to call the element of irreducible rascality, that God put into all human beings. And put it there because it was a good thing it was good for humans to have these two elements in them and so a truly human hearted person is a gentleman with a slight touch of rascality just as one has to have salt in a stew. Confucius said the goody good is other thieves of virtue. And Meaning that to try to be wholly righteous is to go beyond humanity. To try to be something that isn’t human. So this gives Confucian approach to life and justice and all those sort of things a kind of queer humor. Sort of boys will be boys attitude which is nevertheless a very mature way of handling human problems. It was of course for this reason that the Japanese Buddhist priests who visited China to study Buddhism especially as zen priests, introduced Confucianism into Japan, because despite certain limitations that Confucianism as and it needs it always needs the Tao philosophy as a counterbalance. Confucianism has been one of the most successful philosophers in all history for the regulation of governmental and family relationships. But of course it is concerned with formality. Confucianism prescribes all kinds of formal relationships; linguistic,ceremonial,musical, in education, in all the spheres of morals, and for this reason has always been treated by the Tao for being unnatural. You need these two components, you see and they play against each other beautifully in Chinese society. Roughly speaking mostly they confusion in the way of life is for people involved in the world. The Taoist way is to a of life is for people who get disentangled.

https://alanwatts.org/1-2-9-taoist-way-pt-1/

 

[Cypress]

Yes.

good battle

Confucianism is an elitist ideology meant for government functionaries. and makes the gross mistakes of religion

taoism and buddhism are not that, and thus superior. taoism and buddhism represent spirituality, which knows the devil is in the details.

confusionism

Confucius felt Confucian principles derived from the mandate of heaven; but the core message of message of confucianism is that cultivating virtue is it's own reward: you don't get a reward, a trip to heaven or nirvana just for being virtuous.

Buddhism ties agency of action to some kind of spiritual reward or liberation.

In the grand scheme of things, it's probably better to cultivate virtue for it's own sake, than worry about if you are getting rewarded for it.

 

[Kamala Trump]

Confucius felt Confucian principles derived from the mandate of heaven; but the core message of message of confucianism is that cultivating virtue is it's own reward: you don't get a reward, a trip to heaven or nirvana just for being virtuous.

Buddhism ties agency of action to some kind of spiritual reward or liberation.

In the grand scheme of things, it's probably better to cultivate virtue for it's own sake, than worry about if you are getting rewarded for it.

wrong.

your stuck in a glittering generality of virtuousness.

buddhism is literally about avoiding suffering through literally lowering expectations.

confucian elites are stuck in undefined terms, just like modern day elites.

 

[Cypress]

wrong.

your stuck in a glittering generality of virtuousness.

buddhism is literally about avoiding suffering through literally lowering expectations.

confucian elites are stuck in undefined terms, just like modern day elites.

I am not really interested debates about which one is really better. The fine points and terrain of historical and philosophical significance are what interest me.

And you do not strike me as a credible judge of ethics and spirituality.

 

[Kamala Trump]

I am not really interested debates about which one is really better. The fine points and terrain of historical and philosophical significance are what interest me.

And you do not strike me as a credible judge of ethics and spirituality.

you could start with defining virtuousness in confucian terms.

buddhism is about avoiding suffering.

or you can punk out like a bitch.

 

[Cypress]

you could start with defining virtuousness in confucian terms.

buddhism is about avoiding suffering.

or you can punk out like a bitch.

You are parroting a bad English translation of the core essence of the noble truths of Buddhism.

It's not suffering that's to be avoided. What is to be avoided is desire and attachment, which enslave and enthralls one to a material world of impermanence.

That was always the source of tension between Confucianism and Buddhism in China. Confucian thought foresaw a deep obligation to be an active agent in a heirarchical, well ordered society and that harmony in the dao was achieved by cultivating filial piety.

Buddhism always foresaw a type of spiritual withdrawal from all desire and attachment, which ultimately ends up meaning the downgrading of family, civic duty, and societal obligation

Confucian ethics are very specific, and invoke the moral principles of filial piety, Ren, Li, and Qi.

 

[Kamala Trump]

You are parroting a bad English translation of the core essence of them noble truths of Buddhism.

It's not suffering that's to be avoided. What is to be avoided is desire and attachment which enslaves one to a material world of impermanence.



Confucian ethics are very specific, and invoke the moral principles of filial piety, Ren, Li, and Qi.

which causes suffering.

filial piety.

sounds like patriarchy to me.