Democrats: "FAILURE IS THE ONLY OPTION!"

Besides, I figured YOU would guess who it was, due to the decisive nature with which I have handled you & your endless series of contradictions in debate...

Lol.... LOL.... LMAO....ROFLMAO!! ....Bwahahahahaha! Woooohhoooohoooohooo!! OMG! LMFAO!!! .....AHAHAHHAHAHHhhhHAAaaaa!!!! .....whooohooohooo heeee hheeee heeeee!! OMG FLMAO!! .....Hahha ha ha haa..

....decisive nature with which I have handled you....

OMG...LMAOooo...LMFAO!!! HahahAAhAhhahaAAAhahhahaAAhahaha!!! Oooohooooohhooo.... Oh... Oh... LMFAOooooooo!! Hahahaha Hahahahaa!!

Lummox, you are more funny than Borat!
 
I ask again:

"I wonder if America would be the great country we are today if, in 1776, France and Spain had invaded the eastern seaboard, kicked out the british and "helped" the colonists write a constitution and hold elections all while their armies remained on our soil?"

and of course, the "ultimate pobjective" of the ILA has NOT been met. Iraq is not some multicultural jeffersonian democracy blossoming on the fertile triangle...but rather a civil war torn mess from which Bush and his ISG are desperately attempting to extract us....but make no mistake. We will leave Iraq worse than when we found it... and we will certainly leave the region worse than when we occupied it, and we will certainly leave the region even more hated than when we invaded it.
 
Besides, I figured YOU would guess who it was, due to the decisive nature with which I have handled you & your endless series of contradictions in debate...

Lol.... LOL.... LMAO....ROFLMAO!! ....Bwahahahahaha! Woooohhoooohoooohooo!! OMG! LMFAO!!! .....AHAHAHHAHAHHhhhHAAaaaa!!!! .....whooohooohooo heeee hheeee heeeee!! OMG FLMAO!! .....Hahha ha ha haa..

....decisive nature with which I have handled you....

OMG...LMAOooo...LMFAO!!! HahahAAhAhhahaAAAhahhahaAAhahaha!!! Oooohooooohhooo.... Oh... Oh... LMFAOooooooo!! Hahahaha Hahahahaa!!

Lummox, you are more funny than Borat!

wow.... same display of Dixie's marginal intellect...so many more keystrokes to do it in.
 
Excuse me for not buying your premise that Iraq would be "better off" under Saddam, than with a legitimate and democratically elected government.

At this point - half a trillion dollars later, and 22,000 dead and wounded american soldiers later - I am more interested in whether America "is better off" with having left a contained Saddam Hussein in power. The answer, clearly, is yes.
 
You know we are not far from the Iraq "war" costing as much as the Vietnam "war". Even adjusting the VN war dollars for inflation.
 
oh...but Dixie will tell you about the rape rooms....

and neglect to tell you that women, in general, are treated much worse under the current Iraqi constitution than they were under Saddam. Women were able to hold positions of authority before.... the literacy rate for women in Iraq was the highest in the region.

but Dixie will tell you about the mass graves.....

and neglect to tell you that they were, by and large, casualties of war... a war in which the US supported Saddam's murderous behavior.... and Dixie will certainly neglect to tell you about the incredible numbers of Iraqis who have died in the three short years that America has occupied that country..... and he will certainly not own up to to the fact that they are dying NOW at a rate that far exceeds anything Saddam ever acheived.... and certainly MUCH more rapidly than any annual Iraqi death rate following the first gulf war. Dixie won't own up to that.

No.... Dixie will not tell you about that....Dixie will not admit to the fact that, as bad a guy as Saddam was, the region is worse off with him gone. There is more instability...there is more islamic extremism... there is more sectarian violence...there is even more hatred for the United States....and all of those consequences are self inflicted wounds upon America...they all were avoidable and they all are the responsibility of Bush and his koolaid drinking followers like Dixie. They should be ASHAMED. they SHOULD BE punished.
 
Women in Iraq didn't vote in a legitimate democracy. Uday and Qusay, routinely raped young Iraqi women, and no one in Iraq had authority over Saddam. You can argue that the region would have been better off with Saddam still in power, but you can't prove this, and it's a bit ridiculous, given he had waged wars of aggression against two of his neighbors, and threatened a third.

Only a true Saddam apologist would classify the thousands of Kurds who were gassed to death in the streets, and dumped into mass graves, as "casualties of war". Only a simple-minded idiot would believe that Saddam didn't have intentions of reconstituting his WMD programs in his lust for power. And only someone who doesn't have a lick of faith in the power of freedom and democracy, would argue that Iraq was "better off" under the rule of a tyrant.

You can sit here day in and day out, drumming up, dreaming up, and blustering about these unrealistic scenarios you presume would have happened, had we not taken out Saddam, you have no basis for any of this speculation. Who knows? If we had paid Hitler a little money, and sent Neville Chamberlain to talk to him, I am sure we could have avoided all the American casualties at Normandy and the Battle of the Bulge. Europe would have been a beacon of prosperity, had we just left Hitler in place, and found another way to deal with the problems. This is what sort of insane idiocy you are flapping your gums about!
 
It's as if you are standing in the middle of a bombed out Berlin, sobbing and crying about all the devastation we caused, and asking if THIS was what the war was all about? Pointing to the rubble and debris, and claiming Europe would have been better off, had we not destroyed Germany. Insisting that our actions are going to piss off the Nazi's worldwide, and cause us problems for years to come.

You are looking at Iraq, as you look at nearly EVERYTHING, through your soda straw perspective! You are simply unable to see or envision anything other than the negatives of the present and short term, and this is all you can focus on. To you, Iraq can never be any better than the worst thing you see through your soda straw. You simply lack the capacity to see anything else.

I don't know how Iraq will turn out, for all I know, they could escalate the civil war, kill millions of people, then decide to split their country up amongst the various sects, and end up with 3 dictators we have to worry about, instead of just one. I have to put my faith in democracy and freedom, and hope that this scenario doesn't happen. I have a lot of confidence in the power of democracy, but it sure would help to not have to deal with the Saddam apologists, and the persistent tearing down of what is being built.
 
how many women in Iraq were raped by those two boys? do you think that more women per capita were raped during those years in Iraq or in America? Women voting was not my point...women's opportunities in the work place was my point...women's literacy was my point... on both of those points, women in Iraq were better off than any other muslim country. I am not a Saddam apologist. He was an asshole. but you cannot escape the fact that many more Iraqis have died in the three years we have been there than in even the most extreme estimates for the three years prior to our arrival. I am not a simple minded idiot. But only a simple minded idiot would think that Saddam was the only tinhorn leader in the free world who was dreaming of a WMD program. While we were bogged down in Iraq, another little tinhorn threatened to test ICBM's and we rattled our sabres and he bitchslapped us like a girlieman by ignoring our demands that he refrain and he tested them on our birthday..and then, when we didn't do a fucking thing about that, because we had lost all our credibility in the world by fucking up Iraq, he tested nukes after we told him not to..... Oh yeah.... incurring 25K dead and wounded and flushing a half a trillion dollars down the shitter to stop a tinhorn like Saddam - who was really far away from anything like a nuke or a missile that could hit the US - and ignoring Kim Jong Il completely made all sorts of sense. Good JOB.

It is not dreaming to suggest that Iraq would not be engulfed in sectarian violence if we had not invaded. It is clearly fact. It is not dreaming to suggest that Iraq would not have had islamic extremists in every province killing Iraqis and foreign nationals if we had not invaded. It is clearly fact.

This war has been counterproductive - like many said it would be.

This war has not made us safer by one iota - just as many warned it would not.

This war has created a civil war that would not have happened had we not invaded. Henry Kissinger says it's a civil war. King Abdullah says it's a civil war and that is will engulf Lebanon and the Palestinian territories within a year..... but Dixie... the fucking redneck oracle from Birmingham says everything is just dandy...that this is all working out marvelously and that the war was obviously a wonderful thing to do...and that there is just some minor bickering going on in Iraq now and it is NOT a civil war and that the Iraqi people are WAY better off now that we invaded them and booted out their nasty leader and their nasty son...and that this blood in the streets is no big deal.

Good JOB dixie....
 
Maybe you could explain it? You tell us what "secular" doesn't mean, but you don't bother explaining what it does mean. According to the dictionary I have, it means, not pertaining to religion. This seems to be an odd way to describe a country in a civil war between two religious factions. I'm sure there is some secret spin move you morons put on this, to make Iraq secular, when every indication suggests they are not. I suppose you are presuming Iraq is secular because it's not an Islamic theocracy, but that doesn't make something "secular" at all.

I'll certainly continue professing common sense on this topic, and exposing your lack of competence for all to see. Whenever you feel like explaining how a predominately Muslim country, run by a Sunni dictator, and now on the verge of a civil war between two Muslim factions, is "secular" by any measure, you just go right ahead, I am waiting to hear the explanation.


Are you not bright enought to understand that even if a people are religous, the government can be secular?.....not pertaining to religion???
 
Iraq would certainly have not been dealing with Iran had Sadam still been in power. Thanks bush for combining the islamic forces that oppose us ;)
 
Women voting was not my point...

No, it wasn't your point, was it? It was MY point!

I am not a Saddam apologist.

Yes you are!

He was an asshole.

Then you're an apologist for an asshole!

But you cannot escape the fact that many more Iraqis have died in the three years we have been there than in even the most extreme estimates for the three years prior to our arrival.

Many more Americans died between 1862-1865, than the preceding 3 years... Many more Europeans and Americans died between 1942-1945 than the preceding 3 years, as well. I don't see this as being a valid parameter to use, in determining what is "best" in the long term.

I am not a simple minded idiot.

That is debatable.
 
Are you not bright enought to understand that even if a people are religous, the government can be secular?.....not pertaining to religion???

Oh, I am bright enough to understand that! Are you bright enough to understand, a government controlled completely by a dictator, is no more "secular" than the dictator who controls it? Saddam was a Sunni Muslim. He routinely gave positions of authority and security, to Sunni Muslims, and routinely committed genocide on those who weren't. This is not "secular government" by any definition I can find.

You can continue to argue that Saddam claimed Iraq was a "secular government" but Saddam also claimed Iraq was a "democracy" because they had national elections. Do you believe Iraq was a legitimate democracy under Saddam? Yes or no?
 
It's as if you are standing in the middle of a bombed out Berlin, sobbing and crying about all the devastation we caused, and asking if THIS was what the war was all about? Pointing to the rubble and debris, and claiming Europe would have been better off, had we not destroyed Germany. Insisting that our actions are going to piss off the Nazi's worldwide, and cause us problems for years to come.

You are looking at Iraq, as you look at nearly EVERYTHING, through your soda straw perspective! You are simply unable to see or envision anything other than the negatives of the present and short term, and this is all you can focus on. To you, Iraq can never be any better than the worst thing you see through your soda straw. You simply lack the capacity to see anything else.

I don't know how Iraq will turn out, for all I know, they could escalate the civil war, kill millions of people, then decide to split their country up amongst the various sects, and end up with 3 dictators we have to worry about, instead of just one. I have to put my faith in democracy and freedom, and hope that this scenario doesn't happen. I have a lot of confidence in the power of democracy, but it sure would help to not have to deal with the Saddam apologists, and the persistent tearing down of what is being built.

your mischaracterizations as to my perspective are just that...and they come from a man who clearly has some problems with "perspective" since your views as to what will transpire in the world have been as uniformly consistently wrong as any prognosticator I have ever known.

Here is some of what I know: I know that sunnis and shiites are slaughtering each other in Iraq. I know that Lebanon teeters on the brink of falling into the same sort of sectarian strife. I know that the Palestinian territories teeter on the same brink. I know that Islamic extremists now have free run of all of Iraq where they did not before. I know that Iran is stronger now than it ever was before and that its influence and handiwork is clearly visible in the rapid expansion of the power and influence of Hezbollah in Lebanon that has occurred in the time since our invasion of Iraq.

I believe that all of those things have happened as a direct result of our removal of Saddam and occupation of Iraq.

On the other side of the globe, I know that Kim Jong Il has slapped us rudely across the face and now has a nuclear warhead and ICBM's to fly them towards America. I believe that America would have been more capable of a more forceful and effective response to his actions had we not lost the moral high ground in the world community by foolishly invading Iraq without the blessings of the international community.

Our enemies are real. Al Qaeda is a real enemy. a nuclear North Korea is a real threat. Saddam was not anywhere near as dangerous to American interests and security as those other enemies were and continue to be.

I believe that invading Iraq has made the middle east more unstable, the world less safe, and America poorer, fewer, less safe, and more despised, and I think the war in Iraq did all of that.... and none of that is good.
 
Darn good Post Maine. And very well said considering the target.

I don't think there was one *%$###@ word in there ;)
 
Women voting was not my point...

No, it wasn't your point, was it? It was MY point!

and my point was: women who can vote but aren't allowed to work or hold positions of power and authority that they once held would not consider "voting" to be a step up in that case

I am not a Saddam apologist.

Yes you are!

fuck you you silly little gadfly. I have NEVER apologized for Saddam. By suggesting that Saddam did not gas seven million jews or crucifdy Christ is not apologizing for him...it is being factually honest - which you refuse to do. YOu have continually attempted to demonize Saddam and inflate his evil to make him the worst dictator in the modern era and therefore our moral duty was clear to take him down, when the facts are that there have been numerous dictators as ruthless if not moreso that not only did America not "take down" but did, in fact, support.

He was an asshole.

Then you're an apologist for an asshole!

ditto

But you cannot escape the fact that many more Iraqis have died in the three years we have been there than in even the most extreme estimates for the three years prior to our arrival.

Many more Americans died between 1862-1865, than the preceding 3 years... Many more Europeans and Americans died between 1942-1945 than the preceding 3 years, as well. I don't see this as being a valid parameter to use, in determining what is "best" in the long term.

of course, that is primarily because YOU have never actually been required to do any of the dying. How dare you suggest that you can determine for the Iraqi people that an invasion begun quaintly enough with "shock and awe" and an conquest and occupation that has seen hundreds of thousands of casualties is "best" for THEM in the long run?

I am not a simple minded idiot.

That is debatable.

You can debate anything you want...and I look at your track record of prognostications and I like the fact that a moron like YOU is calling me an idiot...that almost guarantees my admission into Mensa. YOU are the guy who said that Terri Schaivo was nearly conscious and clearly not braindead....you were the guy who was certain that republicans would maintain their majorities in both chambers.... you were the guy who suggested a year ago today that we would be out of Iraq before losing 500 more troops. You go ahead and debate MY intellect all you want. You are a fool who has been dead wrong about everything for quite some time now..... please don't stop....you have no idea how much comic relief you bring to those of us who are so sickened by the horrific performance of your blue jean clad lover.
 
I believe that invading Iraq has made the middle east more unstable, the world less safe, and America poorer, fewer, less safe, and more despised, and I think the war in Iraq did all of that.... and none of that is good.

This is the kind of mindset which denotes a 'soda straw perspective' to me. I coulda said the same exact thing about Europe, during the bitter battles of WWII, I might have made the same arguments for the South Pacific, when we routinely lost more soldiers in a day, than we have lost in a year in Iraq, and I coulda stood in the fields of Antietam and cried endlessly over what terrible devastation and death our nation had encountered at the hand of Lincoln.

You are taking a simple emotive response to war, and trying to paint it as the "result" of war, as if that were our only objective all along. This is liberal intellectual dishonesty at its finest. You are propagating an illusion of something that is not legitimate or fair. Yes, the bombs continue to explode, violence escalates throughout the middle east, and people are dying. I don't know how long you've followed the regional history, but this isn't something new. What is new to the region, is democracy.

I am sure, because I have read books about it, that after the Civil War, many people were skeptical about reconstruction of the South. I am sure that we had many people with your same soda straw perspectives, and they simply saw the death and devastation caused by the war, and shook their heads in hopelessness and despair, and blamed Lincoln personally. I am positive there were many who didn't accept the outcome of the war, and formed 'insurgent' groups who instigated 'sectarian' violence, most notably, the KKK. I know that many people supported the KKK and opposed democracy and freedom for black people in America. I know this lasted for the better part of the next century, before America resolved the issue with the Civil Rights legislation. I know that, to this day, there are STILL problems faced in America, involving violence and death, as a result of the Civil War, fought well over a century ago. So, my common sense tells me, that in 1868... 1870... you couldn't prejudge history, or make any historic determinations or observations regarding the Civil War, whether it was "best" for America, any more than you can in Iraq in 2006. It's clearly better for America to have a democratic Arab ally in the oil-rich heart of where the radicals want to build a Caliphate, and next door to a nut who is building a nuke to annihilate Israel with. The long-term, "non-soda-straw" perspective, is important to be able to see here.

The common factor is democracy and freedom, and it somehow always seems to prevail. Iraq has tasted it, and they will prevail with our support. In fact, the only way that they won't prevail, is if we abandon them now and allow others to undermine their democracy. The seeds have been planted, the sprouts have emerged, but there is a long way to go, to a bountiful harvest.

I love how Liberals justify not standing up for liberty, freedom and democracy, because we have to be fair to all ideals and ideologies. We are America, and we have always stood for Freedom, Liberty, and Democracy. We are not required to take a back seat to other ideologies, or stand for anything other than what we are as a nation. In short, it's what we do.

Iraq has the potential to be one of the greatest nations on the planet, not just in the middle east. They have huge oil capacity, they have profound historical archeology, they have some of the smartest medical and scientific minds, they have strong sense of national pride in their country, and a cultural diversity much like the US. These things can never be realized in a country controlled by a dictator, they exploit the nations wealth for their own palaces and pleasures, and the people of Iraq never prosper. It is through democracy and freedom, that Iraq will eventually thrive and prosper as a nation, and perhaps provide hope for other Arab nations.
 
YOU have never actually been required to do any of the dying.

Nope... and it's really too bad you weren't ever required to, as well.

...I might have to change DPQM for this one, you're on a roll lately!
 
you are drunk on koolaid.. Strong sense of national pride? How is that? how do three ethnic groups who happened to be living within a line drawn on a map in England earlier this century and who hate each other with obvious passion develop a strong sense of national pride? Iraq COULD be the greatest country since the Roman Empire.... I COULD win powerball. I would not bet thousands of dollars on the latter, and I sure as hell would not have bet 25Kdead and wounded Americans and a half a trillion dollars that could have gone to fighting the real war on terror on the former.

and don't you get it? what denotes a "soda straw perspective" to you is nothing but more funny stuff from Dixie to laugh at. You have been wrong about everything. Don't you get it? EVERYTHING. Not some of the things or a few of the things or even MOST of the things...but EVERYTHING.

Let me ask you a question: if you knew someone who had incorrectly predicted the winners of fifty horseraces in a row, and that person came up to you and asked you who you had your money on in the next race, you told them and they told YOU that you were nuts and that the horse is valentine and on the morning line they got the horse listed at five to nine and that you were a fool to not put all your money on valentine.....what would you do?
 
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