Do most Christians even understand their own religion?

Phantasmal said:
I don’t believe Osteen talks about Jesus much. Jesus teachings contradicts his prosperity gospel.
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I think Osteen could be slotted as a Unitarian. I think his message would be more appropriate as a Unitarian.

I like the man, as I think he just has a positive message, that everyone can use, regardless if you think God and Jesus are metaphors or not!
 
Dutch Uncle said:
For everything there is a season,
A time for every activity under heaven.
A time to be born and a time to die.
A time to plant and a time to harvest.
A time to kill and a time to heal.
A time to tear down and a time to build up.
A time to cry and a time to laugh.
A time to grieve and a time to dance.

The present recorded history of mankind, besides being written in blood, is that it's often two steps forward and one step back. The collapse of civilizations almost always yielded a greater one.
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The idea seems to be there is often a spiritual crises on the heels of war, death, catastrophe.

And sometimes it works in the opposite direction. World War 1 made a lot of Europeans question everything they thought they knew about Christianity, a benevolent God, even the power of reason and rationality to explain the world.
 
Jarod said:
The Christian world is full conflicting views and ideologies, its hard to call many sects the same religion except in name.

If you read the New Testament is is in great conflict with the Old Testament, but as a follower of the teachings of Jesus, I choose the teachings of Jesus over the old ways.

Forgive the neighbor instead of an eye for an eye. Look at Matthew 5 for much guidance on how Jesus changed things.

Jesus was very much anti-Church in the traditional sense, he never attended one, his "Church" was a group of apostles and a prostitute.
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There seems to be some scholarly opinion that Jesus' ministry was a splinter Jewish group, similar to the Essenes, who were opposed to the Sadducees and the priestly class.

I think it is fair to say that Christianity is not a religion about Jesus' Jewish heritage.

It is a religion about the meaning of Jesus' life and reserection, as interpreted by Paul, the Apostolic fathers, and the Doctors of the Church.
 
Even if one sees value in the teachings of the New Testament,
is it healthy to obsess over these non-tangible things?

People should focus on tangible things--like donuts. Comfortable recliners. Chinese restaurant waitresses.
I honestly believe that a truly all-knowing God would understand that a lot more.
 
Jarod said:
I intemperate that differently epically considering how he continues to give conflicting new rules. So, you believe we should turn the cheek?

Do you treat the meek as if they are blessed? Does the old testament teach that?

Do you believe in being merciful? should they been shown mercy?

Are peacemakers true children of God? Or are those who stormed the Capital?

Are those you persecuted righteous?
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Thank you for the response, Jarod.

I'm going to respond a piece at a time. In this first response, I going to ask a question about your response.

I intemperate that differently epically considering how he continues to give conflicting new rules.
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How do you interpret this differently without calling Jesus a liar?

Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH...

Some of those "laws" are quite specific.

Here are two very specific "laws":




"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."

Leviticus 25:44ff


"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives."

Leviticus 20:13

How do you "interpret" the passage differently as applies to these two instances?

I am not trying to trap you here, Jarod. Your guesses about the existence of a god and the nature of that god MAY BE CORRECT. Another person's guess that there are NO gods MAY BE CORRECT.

I have no way of knowing that.

But interpreting what is clearly written is another matter...and I want to hear what your thoughts are and discuss them.
 
Cypress said:
The idea seems to be there is often a spiritual crises on the heels of war, death, catastrophe.

And sometimes it works in the opposite direction. World War 1 made a lot of Europeans question everything they thought they knew about Christianity, a benevolent God, even the power of reason and rationality to explain the world.
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Crisis can bring change as you pointed out.

Consider our own crisis in this country about huge division between the two major political parties. It's not Manchin's fault the Build-back-better plan failed. It's the nation as a whole; either the wrong people are pushing the agenda or the right people are too lazy to get involved. We'll need a crisis to kick us out of our rut...which is usually never good because it means things will get worse before they get better.

Such is the nature of human civilization as repeatedly proved throughout history.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
Even if one sees value in the teachings of the New Testament,
is it healthy to obsess over these non-tangible things?

People should focus on tangible things--like donuts. Comfortable recliners. Chinese restaurant waitresses.
I honestly believe that a truly all-knowing God would understand that a lot more.
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I like like thinking about intangible things which cannot be seen or experienced first hand: Higgs boson, number theory, particle physics.(:

As for religion, I am not a brilliant person who managed to independently come up with my own moral awareness, to independently confirm the nature of my relationship to humanity, even to the planet itself.

The only way I figure I am going to understand myself, my relationship to humanity, my connections to the past, my relationship to the natural world is to develop a good working knowledge of history, religion, science, sociology, cultural awareness, etc.

Well, that's what I do between video games and bike rides:)
 
Cypress said:
The whole point of the Protestant tradition, particularly John Calvin and Luther, probably even Paul is to get rid of the concept of rewards for acting a certain way or performing certain deeds. Grace comes through faith alone.

The idea is that you cannot buy your way into heaven, either by money or indulgences, or by acting a certain way with the expectation of being given a reward.
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Yes I understand those guys had issues with the RCC and they were right in that.
But I never suggested it so I dont get why you are trying to pin it on me.
That all really falls under placing word of man above God. In the case ht the RCC the pope but to a degree Calvin Luther etc as well. No harm in reading what they have to say but acting upon it when all you need and the only thing that matters is getting right with Christ is a problem.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Disagreed on Evangelicals since they are the least Christian people in America. Do you support Prosperity Christianity like Trump and Paula White?
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Sorry but I have no idea what you are describing.

I do support a government that defends opportunity for the individual to prosper to the extent of their ability. I do support Christianity because I would have everyone accept Christ as their lord and savior and gain eternal life as Christ wishes for us all and calls us to support.

Dont know if that answers your question or not.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Thank you for the response, Jarod.

I'm going to respond a piece at a time. In this first response, I going to ask a question about your response.



How do you interpret this differently without calling Jesus a liar?

Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH...

Some of those "laws" are quite specific.

Here are two very specific "laws":




"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."

Leviticus 25:44ff


"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives."

Leviticus 20:13

How do you "interpret" the passage differently as applies to these two instances?

I am not trying to trap you here, Jarod. Your guesses about the existence of a god and the nature of that god MAY BE CORRECT. Another person's guess that there are NO gods MAY BE CORRECT.

I have no way of knowing that.

But interpreting what is clearly written is another matter...and I want to hear what your thoughts are and discuss them.
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If the Quotation is accurate, he’s not lying because you fail to see what law he is talking about, he’s not talking about the ancient Hebrew law, he’s talking about the new law which he has brought forth.
 
Jarod said:
If the Quotation is accurate, he’s not lying because you fail to see what law he is talking about, he’s not talking about the ancient Hebrew law, he’s talking about the new law which he has brought forth.
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C'mon, Jarod.

Of course he is talking about the law of the Old Testament.

Here is the full Matthew passage again:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE."

Matthew 5: 17ff

How on Earth can you possibly think that applies "to the new law which he brought forth" rather than to the laws promulgated in Leviticus and Deuteronomy?

This is not one of the obscure passages...this is clear as crystal. He is telling his audience that he is not here to change the old law.
 
Frank Apisa said:
C'mon, Jarod.

Of course he is talking about the law of the Old Testament.

Here is the full Matthew passage again:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE."

Matthew 5: 17ff

How on Earth can you possibly think that applies "to the new law which he brought forth" rather than to the laws promulgated in Leviticus and Deuteronomy?

This is not one of the obscure passages...this is clear as crystal. He is telling his audience that he is not here to change the old law.
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By dying on the cross he fulfilled those laws, There are no longer punishments for those former sins… AKA They are no longer sins. He brought forth a new order, one where forgiveness is king, one where the inconsistencies from the old laws Are destroyed by the new laws. He fulfilled the old law, once for filled no one must obey them anymore. That’s what I choose to believe, that’s what I feel is true. The teachings of Jesus are very consistent with my understanding of love reigning. supreme.
 
Frank Apisa said:
C'mon, Jarod.

Of course he is talking about the law of the Old Testament.

Here is the full Matthew passage again:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE."

Matthew 5: 17ff

How on Earth can you possibly think that applies "to the new law which he brought forth" rather than to the laws promulgated in Leviticus and Deuteronomy?

This is not one of the obscure passages...this is clear as crystal. He is telling his audience that he is not here to change the old law.
Click to expand...

Christian theology was developed by Paul and the apostolic Fathers, not by Jesus.

It was decided within a few years of Jesus' crucifixion that if the apostles were going to convert Gentiles then gentiles would not be beholden to the law of Torah.
 
Celticguy said:
Sorry but I have no idea what you are describing.

I do support a government that defends opportunity for the individual to prosper to the extent of their ability. I do support Christianity because I would have everyone accept Christ as their lord and savior and gain eternal life as Christ wishes for us all and calls us to support.

Dont know if that answers your question or not.
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Paula White was Trump's Christian guru; his appointed to an official position in his administration.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/n...ts-paula-white-to-oversee-faith-outreach.html
President Donald Trump’s go-to spiritual adviser and longtime prayer partner, Paula White, has been named to an official White House position in the Office of Public Liaison, the New York Times reported Thursday and Religion News Service confirmed on Friday.

 
Dutch Uncle said:
Paula White was Trump's Christian guru; his appointed to an official position in his administration.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/n...ts-paula-white-to-oversee-faith-outreach.html
President Donald Trump’s go-to spiritual adviser and longtime prayer partner, Paula White, has been named to an official White House position in the Office of Public Liaison, the New York Times reported Thursday and Religion News Service confirmed on Friday.
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I have no issue with the government partnering with faith based groups to those ends.
After all it has always been faith based groups doing this work for millennia prior to the welfare state.
 
Cypress said:
I like like thinking about intangible things which cannot be seen or experienced first hand: Higgs boson, number theory, particle physics.(:

As for religion, I am not a brilliant person who managed to independently come up with my own moral awareness, to independently confirm the nature of my relationship to humanity, even to the planet itself.

The only way I figure I am going to understand myself, my relationship to humanity, my connections to the past, my relationship to the natural world is to develop a good working knowledge of history, religion, science, sociology, cultural awareness, etc.

Well, that's what I do between video games and bike rides:)
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That's cool. Whatever works, I guess.
 
Celticguy said:
I have no issue with the government partnering with faith based groups to those ends.
After all it has always been faith based groups doing this work for millennia prior to the welfare state.
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Including Muslims and Jews? Atheists?

What do you see the differences, including advantages and disadvantages, to using Muslims, Jews and Christians to help the poor and disadvantaged (with government/taxpayer) support versus welfare?

Would you have a problem if President Harris appointed a Black Muslim to be her official White House spiritual counselor like Trump appointed Paula White?
 
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