Does anyone agree with the $700 bailout?

KingCondanomation said:
It's not permanent Socialism though, YOU have said you may be voting for Obama, knowing he will implement universal healthcare which is DEFINETELY going to be permanent Socialism and with a far greater percent of GDP then a few mortgage companies and far far more in the long run with an aging populace.

I don't like this bailout either and I still lean more toward not supporting it, but if it does go through at least I can take slight solace in it not being permanent.

You've made some good points BTW, same as Superfreak, but no need to turn this ugly, it's an important debate.
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Considering the US government has purchased majority control of at lease one Fortune 100 company and may well purchase controlling shares of other large companies in the near future and that Obama's healthcare plan involves absolutely no government control of private companies, what is going on currently is actual socialism whereas Obama's plan is nothing close.
 
Dungheap said:
Considering the US government has purchased majority control of at lease one Fortune 100 company and may well purchase controlling shares of other large companies in the near future and that Obama's healthcare plan involves absolutely no government control of private companies, what is going on currently is actual socialism whereas Obama's plan is nothing close.
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it's fascism. Government backing and bailouts for the rich. Nothing for regular people.
 
Obfuscate said:
You're on Crack if you think that 30% of people who bought homes that are now worth half what they bought them for and the borrowers had no buisiness or sufficient income or credit to buy them in the first place will pay them off. How? If it were possible private banks woul be all over it. Plus if they sold for 30 cents on the dollar of the note it's because THAT'S WHAT IT'S WORTH. You also don't consider carry costs and the costs to get the assets back into sellable shape when you get them back.
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AGAIN... for the READING IMPAIRED....

1) Private Banks would LOVE to be able to take this deal... BUT THEY DO NOT HAVE THE CAPITAL TO DO SO. This mess needs to be unwound FIRST.

2) Home valuations have NOT dropped by 50% on average throughout the country. That assertation is idiotic.

3) If they had the means to buy them with low rate ARMs etc... then the government can re-fi them at low rates. THEY CAN CHEAT. They DO NOT HAVE TO MAKE MONEY ON THE INCOME STREAM. They can make these loans attractive to other buyers... how????

If you have a mortgage that was for $300k... home value now worth $210. (assuming a drop of 30%) The fed can refi the deal for $210k at 3%.... on a home they paid 90k for. If they in turn sell the mortgage for $100k... the buyer of the mortgage gets just over 6% income on their investment (which is the current 30 yr fixed avg.).

The Fed makes money. The homeowner keeps their home. The person buying the mortgage gets the income stream that is average... plus the appreciation between the loan value and what they paid for the loan.

4) A loan selling for 30 cents on the dollar DOES NOT equate to the HOME being worth 30 cents on the dollar. It relates to the likelihood that the loan is repaid. As shown above, that likelihood can be altered because the FED has the resources to make it happen.

5) I did indeed include the costs of getting homes back into shape. It was included in BOTH of my examples that you failed to comprehend. YOU are also assuming that all of these homes are getting trashed, which is quite simply not the case.
 
Superfreak said:
AGAIN... for the READING IMPAIRED....

1) Private Banks would LOVE to be able to take this deal... BUT THEY DO NOT HAVE THE CAPITAL TO DO SO. This mess needs to be unwound FIRST.

2) Home valuations have NOT dropped by 50% on average throughout the country. That assertation is idiotic.

3) If they had the means to buy them with low rate ARMs etc... then the government can re-fi them at low rates. THEY CAN CHEAT. They DO NOT HAVE TO MAKE MONEY ON THE INCOME STREAM. They can make these loans attractive to other buyers... how????

If you have a mortgage that was for $300k... home value now worth $210. (assuming a drop of 30%) The fed can refi the deal for $210k at 3%.... on a home they paid 90k for. If they in turn sell the mortgage for $100k... the buyer of the mortgage gets just over 6% income on their investment (which is the current 30 yr fixed avg.).

The Fed makes money. The homeowner keeps their home. The person buying the mortgage gets the income stream that is average... plus the appreciation between the loan value and what they paid for the loan.

4) A loan selling for 30 cents on the dollar DOES NOT equate to the HOME being worth 30 cents on the dollar. It relates to the likelihood that the loan is repaid. As shown above, that likelihood can be altered because the FED has the resources to make it happen.

5) I did indeed include the costs of getting homes back into shape. It was included in BOTH of my examples that you failed to comprehend. YOU are also assuming that all of these homes are getting trashed, which is quite simply not the case.
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your assumption of a 30% drop is where you are lying. That bottom is straight out of your ass.
 
Obfuscate said:
It also increased the deficit which has many negative factors Superfreak isn't pricing in. It was also 1/7 as big a bailout and totally differant situation.
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You are being completely ignorant at this point. Every single time I have stated that it will spark inflation in the short term due to the outlay of capital by the treasury. I have not ignored that fact. AS I have stated repeatedly and you continue to ignore THAT is the medicine we have to take.

What you FAIL to comprehend is the ability to regain that capital outlay.

AGAIN....

Will the government make money on the equity they get from these banks? YES OR NO.

As for the debt portion... I have already explained how they can make money on those loans.... which I am sure you will continue to pretend you do not see.
 
You obviously don't work in the Mortgage markets or understand what's going on Superfreak. An asset is only worth what you can sell it for. period. I'm selling plenty of REO, there are plenty of buyers at the right price. You also keep throwing around this 30 cents but you already said it's going to be like 60-65 cents. Home prices have dropped in many areas at least 50%, especially in new construction and land. Land is MAYBE 20 cents and these all play into the value of all homes and inventory. Your using bubble values with shady appraisals to figure out how the Government is gong to be whole. Anyone in the buisiness knows thats BS.
 
Superfreak said:
You are being completely ignorant at this point. Every single time I have stated that it will spark inflation in the short term due to the outlay of capital by the treasury. I have not ignored that fact. AS I have stated repeatedly and you continue to ignore THAT is the medicine we have to take.

What you FAIL to comprehend is the ability to regain that capital outlay.

AGAIN....

Will the government make money on the equity they get from these banks? YES OR NO.

As for the debt portion... I have already explained how they can make money on those loans.... which I am sure you will continue to pretend you do not see.
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None of your scenario may occur at all. You pulled a number straight out of your ass for what the home is now "worth". In your fictional scenario based on your inflated guess of what a home would be worth, the government made money, but that was merely fictional, with a lot of presumtions about new home prices. Where did you get 30% and why are you including money used to fix up the house in it;s new value. Agents always tell people to not count on money you put into a home to result much in it's resale value.
 
Darla said:
Basically what you see from the righties, especially ones like Dano is, that they'd rather spend billions on billionaires - as long as they don't have to pay for health insurance for poor people.

It's a very ugly ideology.
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I don't want either Socialism but if I had to choose one I'll take the health care for poor people one...
 
So. To summarize. The bailout blows. Fascists are lying shitheads. A barter economy would unleash a new epoch of american individual potential unhindered by financiers deciding who does and doesn;t get to work.
 
Obfuscate said:
You obviously don't work in the Mortgage markets or understand what's going on Superfreak. An asset is only worth what you can sell it for. period. I'm selling plenty of REO, there are plenty of buyers at the right price. You also keep throwing around this 30 cents but you already said it's going to be like 60-65 cents. Home prices have dropped in many areas at least 50%, especially in new construction and land. Land is MAYBE 20 cents and these all play into the value of all homes and inventory. Your using bubble values with shady appraisals to figure out how the Government is gong to be whole. Anyone in the buisiness knows thats BS.
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LMAO.... so you believe that a mortgage that is priced at 30 cents on the dollar will always be priced at 30 cents?

That mortgages selling at 30 cents on the dollar means the HOMES are only worth that?

No, home prices have NOT dropped by 50% in many areas.

I stated that the WORST of the debt is going to price in the 15-30 cents where it is now. The rest is pricing higher. The higher the value, the less chance of default. But the numbers still work.

What 'shady' appraisals. I used an example of a home price so that we could run an example with ACTUAL numbers. I thought that would help you to understand.

Apparently you are too ignorant to understand basic math.
 
Superfreak said:
LMAO.... so you believe that a mortgage that is priced at 30 cents on the dollar will always be priced at 30 cents?

That mortgages selling at 30 cents on the dollar means the HOMES are only worth that?

No, home prices have NOT dropped by 50% in many areas.

I stated that the WORST of the debt is going to price in the 15-30 cents where it is now. The rest is pricing higher. The higher the value, the less chance of default. But the numbers still work.

What 'shady' appraisals. I used an example of a home price so that we could run an example with ACTUAL numbers. I thought that would help you to understand.

Apparently you are too ignorant to understand basic math.
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You chose your numbers to make you math support your case. You're a hack. Nobody knows where the bottom is.

If there was really this much value in these mortgages companies would want them.
 
Obfuscate said:
I don't want either Socialism but if I had to choose one I'll take the health care for poor people one...
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I guess I've misread you over the years.
We already have that, it's called Medicaid, this is universal healthcare for people who already have healthcare insurance or who have freely chosen NOT to pay for it.

I would implore you to think more of your children's freedom than your own, the bailout and Iraq suck but they are temporary. Universal healthcare will NEVER ever go away, like any government social welfare program, there is a dependency aspect which always makes it the hardest to reverse.
 
SuperFreak obviously makes it up as he goes. I'm selling REO and know for a fact we're getting 50-60 cents on the dollar of previous values. Many times less in outline areas, 20-30 cents on land. I have to do year end evaluations for our banking partners and last December many areas were 30-50% lower and a year later we're worse off.

Old values IE the note amount were based on shady inflated appraisals. Everyone in the buisiness knows that. The 30 cents or whatever number is based on that appraised value.
 
Superfreak said:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vodkajim/housingbubble/

for obfuscate
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That shows a 25% drop and was from earlier this year. It's got much worse since then and will continue to get worse when all these investors start walking on their homes, there are many more foreclosures to come and lots and lots of inventory to be sold before prices stop declining. But somehow you think that they will make a profit and this will be temporary. Please.
 
Obfuscate said:
This bailout will not be temporary.We are in the process of Nationalizing the Mortgage markets.
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You could be right and that is my fear.
But IF we do, it will be a far FAR higher chance of ending up with permanent nationalization with Dems in power, I'm sure you know that. Don't be so pissed at the Repubs that you set aside your good judgement in forgetting what ideology the Dems are playing for.
 
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