Donald Trump 'voids' Joe Biden's pardons after former president used autopen signature

The President and the Autopen: It is Unconstitutional for Someone or Something to Sign a Bill Outside of the President's Presence​


In sum, the President’s use of the auto-pen (or even a human being) to sign a bill outside of the President’s presence is unconstitutional. This establishes a dangerous precedent, one which every thinking lawyer in Washington politics seemed to have overlooked. Let the auto-pen episode not be a precedent for this or any other President to follow. The Constitution does not allow for shortcuts.



No court ever ruled on that question did it?
 
It's the law, moron.

It's the law, moron.

Biden was never elected. He was never President. Too many States never chose their electoral college members.

Argument of the Stone fallacy.
Doubling down on retardation isn't going to change anything, trollboy.
 
It's not happened until Biden.


Yes, bills have been signed into law using an autopen. The first known instance occurred during Barack Obama's presidency when he authorized the use of an autopen to sign an extension of three provisions of the Patriot Act on May 26, 2011, while he was in France.

This marked the first time a U.S. president used an autopen to sign legislation into law. The White House justified this by citing a 2005 Department of Justice opinion, which stated that a president does not need to physically sign a bill himself for it to become law, as long as he approves it and directs a subordinate to affix his signature.

Obama also used the autopen on January 3, 2013, to sign an extension of the Bush tax cuts while vacationing in Hawaii.

Joe Biden also used an autopen during his presidency, notably in May 2024, to sign a bill extending funding for the Federal Aviation Administration while he was in San Francisco.

The use of an autopen for legislation has precedent and is considered legally valid, though it has sparked debate, particularly when Obama first used it, prompting some Republicans to question its constitutionality. However, no serious legal challenge has overturned its legitimacy.



@Grok
 
Yes, bills have been signed into law using an autopen. The first known instance occurred during Barack Obama's presidency when he authorized the use of an autopen to sign an extension of three provisions of the Patriot Act on May 26, 2011, while he was in France.

This marked the first time a U.S. president used an autopen to sign legislation into law. The White House justified this by citing a 2005 Department of Justice opinion, which stated that a president does not need to physically sign a bill himself for it to become law, as long as he approves it and directs a subordinate to affix his signature.

Obama also used the autopen on January 3, 2013, to sign an extension of the Bush tax cuts while vacationing in Hawaii.

Joe Biden also used an autopen during his presidency, notably in May 2024, to sign a bill extending funding for the Federal Aviation Administration while he was in San Francisco.

The use of an autopen for legislation has precedent and is considered legally valid, though it has sparked debate, particularly when Obama first used it, prompting some Republicans to question its constitutionality. However, no serious legal challenge has overturned its legitimacy.



@Grok
So Obama never signed those bills. Gotit.
 
It affects ALL documents so 'signed'.


The validity of using an autopen for presidential pardons is less clear-cut than for signing legislation, as there’s no definitive legal precedent or statute explicitly addressing it. The U.S. Constitution grants the president the power to "grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States" (Article II, Section 2), but it doesn’t specify how that power must be executed, including whether the president’s physical signature is required.

For legislation, the autopen’s use has been justified by a 2005 Department of Justice opinion, which argued that a president’s approval of a bill, combined with directing a subordinate to affix his signature, satisfies the constitutional requirement of presentment (Article I, Section 7). Pardons, however, fall under a different constitutional framework—executive clemency rather than legislative enactment—and no equivalent legal opinion directly applies. Historically, pardons have been treated as formal acts requiring the president’s personal involvement, often evidenced by a handwritten signature, but this is more tradition than a strict legal mandate.

In practice, presidents have not been documented as using an autopen for pardons. Pardons are typically issued with a physical signature, often accompanied by a warrant or proclamation, reflecting their gravity and personal nature. For example, high-profile pardons—like Gerald Ford’s pardon of Richard Nixon in 1974 or Donald Trump’s pardon of Joe Arpaio in 2017—bore the president’s handwritten signature. The Bureau of Prisons and the Office of the Pardon Attorney, which process clemency requests, also expect a signed document, and there’s no record of an autopen being accepted in this context.

That said, the Supreme Court has ruled that the pardon power is broad and largely unchecked (e.g., United States v. Klein, 1871), suggesting that if a president authorized an autopen signature and intended it as an official act, it could theoretically hold legal weight—absent a challenge. No court has ruled on this specific issue. If it did, opponents might argue that a pardon, as a discretionary and personal act, requires direct presidential action, not a mechanical proxy, potentially sparking a constitutional debate akin to the 2011 Patriot Act autopen controversy.

In short: it’s untested. While the autopen is valid for bills based on precedent and DOJ guidance, its use for pardons lacks historical example or explicit legal backing, leaving it in a gray area until challenged or clarified.




@Grok
 
:cruisewhat:

The law isn't 'retardation', Void. You don't know what a 'troll' is either. I'm not trying to change anything. YOU ARE.
You aren't the determiner of what is and isn't illegal. Multiple people, long before Biden was president, have been pardoned before being charged, convicted etc. So, explain how it's illegal.

Here's how this is going to play out.

Me: Given that multiple people have been pardoned before being charged, based on what do you claim it's illegal.

You: (Some moronic reference to understanding English and the belief that the only interpretation of the law is your interpretation)

Me: "Opinion stated as fact. Like the last post, you are a predictable, trolling moron who thinks stating opinion creates reality."

You: (A moronic, word-game reference to reality..... because all you know if moron and trolling)

Go ahead. Prove me wrong, trollboy.
 
Trump says Biden’s pardons are now ‘void and vacant’ after autopen controversy

Not sure he has the power to void a pardon. While I do think that preemptive pardons seem pretty sketchy, I think Trump may be overstepping if in fact he is trying to do that.

However, one of the things about these preemptive pardons is that they can be compelled to testify. They can't plead the 5th because they wouldn't be incriminating themselves because they have been granted a broad pardon. So they can be compelled to answer questions if called to testify.

That is what the GOP should be doing. Put all of these fuckers on the stand and make them testify publicly
 
The validity of using an autopen for presidential pardons is less clear-cut than for signing legislation, as there’s no definitive legal precedent or statute explicitly addressing it. The U.S. Constitution grants the president the power to "grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States" (Article II, Section 2), but it doesn’t specify how that power must be executed, including whether the president’s physical signature is required.

For legislation, the autopen’s use has been justified by a 2005 Department of Justice opinion, which argued that a president’s approval of a bill, combined with directing a subordinate to affix his signature, satisfies the constitutional requirement of presentment (Article I, Section 7). Pardons, however, fall under a different constitutional framework—executive clemency rather than legislative enactment—and no equivalent legal opinion directly applies. Historically, pardons have been treated as formal acts requiring the president’s personal involvement, often evidenced by a handwritten signature, but this is more tradition than a strict legal mandate.

In practice, presidents have not been documented as using an autopen for pardons. Pardons are typically issued with a physical signature, often accompanied by a warrant or proclamation, reflecting their gravity and personal nature. For example, high-profile pardons—like Gerald Ford’s pardon of Richard Nixon in 1974 or Donald Trump’s pardon of Joe Arpaio in 2017—bore the president’s handwritten signature. The Bureau of Prisons and the Office of the Pardon Attorney, which process clemency requests, also expect a signed document, and there’s no record of an autopen being accepted in this context.

That said, the Supreme Court has ruled that the pardon power is broad and largely unchecked (e.g., United States v. Klein, 1871), suggesting that if a president authorized an autopen signature and intended it as an official act, it could theoretically hold legal weight—absent a challenge. No court has ruled on this specific issue. If it did, opponents might argue that a pardon, as a discretionary and personal act, requires direct presidential action, not a mechanical proxy, potentially sparking a constitutional debate akin to the 2011 Patriot Act autopen controversy.

In short: it’s untested. While the autopen is valid for bills based on precedent and DOJ guidance, its use for pardons lacks historical example or explicit legal backing, leaving it in a gray area until challenged or clarified.




@Grok
You can't pardon someone that has not been convicted of anything.
 
You can't pardon someone that has not been convicted of anything.


Yes, a president of the United States can issue a valid preemptive pardon, meaning a pardon granted before a formal conviction or even before charges are filed.

The U.S. Constitution grants the president broad pardon power under Article II, Section 2, which states the president "shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment."

This authority is expansive and has been interpreted to include pardons issued at any stage of the legal process, including preemptively.

Historical precedent supports this.

The most famous example is President Gerald Ford’s pardon of Richard Nixon in 1974 for any crimes Nixon "committed or may have committed" during his presidency, issued before Nixon was charged or convicted.

The Supreme Court has also weighed in indirectly.

In Ex parte Garland (1866), the Court described the pardon power as "unlimited" except for the impeachment exception, suggesting it can apply to offenses not yet prosecuted. While preemptive pardons remain controversial and rare, they are legally valid under the Constitution’s framework.

That said, limitations exist: the pardon applies only to federal offenses, not state crimes or civil liabilities, and it doesn’t erase the act itself—just the legal consequences.

Political and public backlash can also constrain their use, as seen with Ford’s decision, which cost him significant support. So, while constitutionally permissible, the practical scope and fallout depend on context.




@Grok
 
Other than Twitter and Fox bait, much to do about nothing, it, and the resurgence of the immigration armageddon, are just distractions to deflect off of Trump economic calamities
Exactly. No POTUS can challenge a predecessor's pardons. What trump is trying to do is to launch inquiries into everyone who every worked on his criminal cases.

Which will backfire spectacularly, as all of the evidence against him will now come out in hearings. Said evidence is damning.
 
So Obama never signed those bills. Gotit.


Yes, Barack Obama legally "signed" bills into law using an autopen, and this practice holds up under U.S. law.

The Constitution (Article I, Section 7) requires that a bill be "presented" to the president and, if approved, "he shall sign it," but it doesn’t specify how the signature must be affixed—whether by hand, autopen, or otherwise.

Courts and legal precedent have interpreted this flexibility to mean the physical act of signing isn’t the sole determinant of validity; the president’s intent to approve the bill is what matters.

Obama was the first president to explicitly use an autopen for legislation, notably in 2011 with the extension of the Patriot Act while he was abroad in France.

The White House confirmed he authorized the autopen’s use, and the bill became law without significant legal challenge.

A 2005 Justice Department memo, issued under George W. Bush, had already concluded that autopen signatures are permissible if the president directs their use, arguing that historical practices (like secretaries signing on behalf of presidents in early administrations) support this interpretation.

Critics, including some lawmakers, grumbled about optics and tradition, but no court has overturned a law signed this way.

The key is authorization: Obama’s intent was clear, and the autopen was a mechanical extension of that intent.

So, legally, yes—it’s a valid signature. Practically, it’s a modern twist on an old power, and it stuck.



@Grok
 
You aren't the determiner of what is and isn't illegal.
So you choose to ignore the law. Gotit.
Multiple people, long before Biden was president, have been pardoned before being charged, convicted etc. So, explain how it's illegal.
It's not possible to pardon someone that is not convicted of anything, Void! :laugh:
Here's how this is going to play out.

Me: Given that multiple people have been pardoned before being charged, based on what do you claim it's illegal.

You: (Some moronic reference to understanding English and the belief that the only interpretation of the law is your interpretation)
It's not my problem that you don't understand English, Void. IT'S YOURS! No law is involved here! :laugh:
Me: "Opinion stated as fact. Like the last post, you are a predictable, trolling moron who thinks stating opinion creates reality."
Logic is not an opinion, Void. You just want to ignore it! The English language is not an opinion either. You just don't know English.
You: (A moronic, word-game reference to reality..... because all you know if moron and trolling)
You don't know what 'reality', 'moron', or 'trolling' means either, Void.
Go ahead. Prove me wrong, trollboy.
You already did that.
 
Not sure he has the power to void a pardon. While I do think that preemptive pardons seem pretty sketchy, I think Trump may be overstepping if in fact he is trying to do that.

However, one of the things about these preemptive pardons is that they can be compelled to testify. They can't plead the 5th because they wouldn't be incriminating themselves because they have been granted a broad pardon. So they can be compelled to answer questions if called to testify.

That is what the GOP should be doing. Put all of these fuckers on the stand and make them testify publicly
Whereas this is true, this is a can of worms that the criminal trump does NOT want to open. I'll bet Jack Smith cannot wait to testify.

But trump's dementia makes it impossible for him to think that far in advance.
 
Exactly. No POTUS can challenge a predecessor's pardons. What trump is trying to do is to launch inquiries into everyone who every worked on his criminal cases.

Which will backfire spectacularly, as all of the evidence against him will now come out in hearings. Said evidence is damning.
What 'pardons'??????

You can't 'pardon' someone that is not convicted of anything!
 
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