Epic Fail: Obama's "EOs" on gun control

[The Dude]

You dispute immigration policy?

Racist!!

No I dispute you graduating from college

 

[USFREEDOM911]

Of course it impacts me. despite the wishes of the brain dead, the US is a global player and the politics of most nations concerns us all. Liberal means precisely what Lloyd George meant by it. Only America has attempted to change its meaning, in the same way they want to change everything so it suits them. They changed football so their world championship could always be won by them. They changed netball and rounders so they could always win... the fact that there are no competitors seems to have escaped them. So my dear friend, perhaps I may call you Enoch? or would you prefer Oswald? please do not tell me about my language nor about my culture which, despite living overseas, I jealously guard and unlike you, I suspect, I still have my passport, house, bank account, family and intention to end my days in England.
Obama is NOT a socialist pre or post he is a slightly to the left capitalist and is probably the best thing your adopted home has had in a dozen years. He has, in four years, made huge changes in the way the US is viewed by the world and this is being/will be reflected in your international trade.
So, be a yank by all means because being an arsehole goes with the territory so you are more than half way there. Those Americans who believe in modernity and America's place in the world as a partner and not a swaggering twat will, despite you, steer the US to success.

Sounds to me that you were describing the ONCE GREAT BRITAIN'S past behavior, then America's.

By the way, the sun HAS set on your empire; you fucking wanker.

 

[Bfgrn]

I didn't argue that the government extermination of indigenous people was a 2nd Amendment issue, I argued it was a government turning guns on the people issue, and it was. They took their weapons before executing them, just as you want to take our weapons now. They told them not to be silly, they would never cause harm, and only had their best interests at heart, then they killed the unarmed men, women and children in cold blood. It's highly offensive to me, that you will ignore this tragic and horrific chapter in our history, while you parade around claiming people are being silly about the threat of government turning the military against it's people. My people, the ones who weren't outright executed and murdered, were taken from their homes, marched 2,500 miles across prairies and desert to be put in what amounted to concentration camps, by order of the United States Government.

Now you go ahead and do your little tap dance and pretend we're having some different argument, and you are really showing me. Go ahead and hurl a few base insults at me as well, your friends like doing that whenever they have been pwned, it seems to help them cope. But what you're not going to do, is lie about the fact that governments DO turn their guns on the people when they can't defend themselves, even our own government has done it, and will do it again if we allow it.

Dixie Lou, I will not desecrate the innocent lives lost at Wounded Knee, but that was 1890, a period know as the Wild West era. I hope we have evolved as a nation and a people. But every day 85 fellow Americans die from gun violence. That is the equivalent to a Boeing 737 crashing every day, and a 9/11 attack happening every single month. It is insanity to do nothing.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Dixie Lou, I will not desecrate the innocent lives lost at Wounded Knee, but that was 1890, a period know as the Wild West era. I hope we have evolved as a nation and a people. But every day 85 fellow Americans die from gun violence. That is the equivalent to a Boeing 737 crashing every day, and a 9/11 attack happening every single month. It is insanity to do nothing.

And IF more gun control were the answer to this problem, Chicago would be the safest city in America.

 

[Bfgrn]

And IF more gun control were the answer to this problem, Chicago would be the safest city in America.

Is Chicago an island Dixie Lou?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Is Chicago an island Dixie Lou?

Is the United States an island, Bfoon?

 

[Bfgrn]

Is the United States an island, Bfoon?

The point for the obtuse like yourself is this; it is of little or no value to have strict gun laws inside city limits, unless the same laws are in place outside the city. That is exactly why federal gun laws are needed. So the laws are uniform and there is no havens for criminals to buy a gun.

As citizens, we can't stop a criminal from buying an illegal firearm from the trunk of another criminal in some dark alley.

But, that's where the criminal should be forced to buy a gun. In a totally illegal setting, with all the inherent dangers that come with it. BUT, our current laws sanction criminals being able to walk into a gun show, receive expert advice, discounts, then buy whatever weapon(s) they desire without a background check or having to pay black market prices or risk the dangers of buying a weapon from another criminal in a dark alley.

 

[Phantasmal]

like school shootings becoming common because a weapons ban expired?

Ah, school shootings are more common.

 

[canceled.2021.1]

The point for the obtuse like yourself is this; it is of little or no value to have strict gun laws inside city limits, unless the same laws are in place outside the city. That is exactly why federal gun laws are needed. So the laws are uniform and there is no havens for criminals to buy a gun.

As citizens, we can't stop a criminal from buying an illegal firearm from the trunk of another criminal in some dark alley.

But, that's where the criminal should be forced to buy a gun. In a totally illegal setting, with all the inherent dangers that come with it. BUT, our current laws sanction criminals being able to walk into a gun show, receive expert advice, discounts, then buy whatever weapon(s) they desire without a background check or having to pay black market prices or risk the dangers of buying a weapon from another criminal in a dark alley.

We can't stop illegal immigrants who we are told only want to pick strawberries and work construction from flocking across our border why would you think we could stop guns?

Also even with the UK having ZERO guns, they still have gun deaths. Which seems odd for a country with ZERO guns.

Now you might say, it is fewer than 11,000 so that is good, but would you want to be one of the 54?

 

[Bfgrn]

We can't stop illegal immigrants who we are told only want to pick strawberries and work construction from flocking across our border why would you think we could stop guns?

Also even with the UK having ZERO guns, they still have gun deaths. Which seems odd for a country with ZERO guns.

Now you might say, it is fewer than 11,000 so that is good, but would you want to be one of the 54?

Are your parents aware you are still up? It's past your bedtime, the street lights are on...

 

[Lowaicue]

We can't stop illegal immigrants who we are told only want to pick strawberries and work construction from flocking across our border why would you think we could stop guns?

Also even with the UK having ZERO guns, they still have gun deaths. Which seems odd for a country with ZERO guns.

Now you might say, it is fewer than 11,000 so that is good, but would you want to be one of the 54?

Each of your posts is more stupid than the last. Are you going for a Guinness Book of Records entry?

 

[Lowaicue]

Is the United States an island, Bfoon?

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.


Without looking it up, who penned these words?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

The point for the obtuse like yourself is this; it is of little or no value to have strict gun laws inside city limits, unless the same laws are in place outside the city. That is exactly why federal gun laws are needed. So the laws are uniform and there is no havens for criminals to buy a gun.

Right.... So, if we had National gun laws, this same principle wouldn't apply to guns available outside the US, because if the criminals ever tried to buy those guns, Batman or Superman would prevent it!

As citizens, we can't stop a criminal from buying an illegal firearm from the trunk of another criminal in some dark alley.

But, that's where the criminal should be forced to buy a gun. In a totally illegal setting, with all the inherent dangers that come with it. BUT, our current laws sanction criminals being able to walk into a gun show, receive expert advice, discounts, then buy whatever weapon(s) they desire without a background check or having to pay black market prices or risk the dangers of buying a weapon from another criminal in a dark alley.

Well here is the problem we are having with this argument... Let's say you are a criminal, that's who you are and you accept it. You realize that your whole entire life, until you die or get caught, is going to be devoted to being a criminal, committing crimes, breaking the law.... Are you more likely to be a criminal without a gun, who obeys the gun control laws, or a criminal who takes a chance by breaking the law, in order to be a criminal with a gun? What do you recon the ratio is between criminals who don't want guns as opposed to criminals who do?

You see, what YOUR idea does, is disarm the law-abiding citizens who want to own a gun. Criminals are going to have guns, it doesn't matter what law you pass, they will find a way around it because that's kinda what they do. If you ban guns in a city, it does no good, you realize this... but the same principle applies to the country, if you ban guns across the country, criminals will still find a way to get guns, because a criminal without a gun isn't very much of a criminal.

Now, your gun show/black market rhetoric, is just that. Noise. I have been to countless gun shows, they are hosted by gun dealers, who would never risk their licenses by selling a firearm without proper background checks. This just doesn't happen. Yes, there is a black market, and yes, criminals can get their hands on guns through the internet or illegal transactions, but that is a matter of us enforcing laws that we already have on the books, there is no need for more laws against law-abiding legal gun purchasers. Then there is always the 'tracability' factor regarding weapons and criminals; A criminal would actually PREFER to buy a weapon on the black market, outside the channels of proper legal registration. This way, you can't trace their guns back to them, and they get away with the crime. By enacting more and more "prohibition" on something, what happens? Come on, I know you know the answer to this, it's EASY!

 

[Bfgrn]

Right.... So, if we had National gun laws, this same principle wouldn't apply to guns available outside the US, because if the criminals ever tried to buy those guns, Batman or Superman would prevent it!



Well here is the problem we are having with this argument... Let's say you are a criminal, that's who you are and you accept it. You realize that your whole entire life, until you die or get caught, is going to be devoted to being a criminal, committing crimes, breaking the law.... Are you more likely to be a criminal without a gun, who obeys the gun control laws, or a criminal who takes a chance by breaking the law, in order to be a criminal with a gun? What do you recon the ratio is between criminals who don't want guns as opposed to criminals who do?

You see, what YOUR idea does, is disarm the law-abiding citizens who want to own a gun. Criminals are going to have guns, it doesn't matter what law you pass, they will find a way around it because that's kinda what they do. If you ban guns in a city, it does no good, you realize this... but the same principle applies to the country, if you ban guns across the country, criminals will still find a way to get guns, because a criminal without a gun isn't very much of a criminal.

Now, your gun show/black market rhetoric, is just that. Noise. I have been to countless gun shows, they are hosted by gun dealers, who would never risk their licenses by selling a firearm without proper background checks. This just doesn't happen. Yes, there is a black market, and yes, criminals can get their hands on guns through the internet or illegal transactions, but that is a matter of us enforcing laws that we already have on the books, there is no need for more laws against law-abiding legal gun purchasers. Then there is always the 'tracability' factor regarding weapons and criminals; A criminal would actually PREFER to buy a weapon on the black market, outside the channels of proper legal registration. This way, you can't trace their guns back to them, and they get away with the crime. By enacting more and more "prohibition" on something, what happens? Come on, I know you know the answer to this, it's EASY!

No one is calling for a ban on all guns. The President's proposal is reasonable and sensible gun legislation. Even the majority of NRA members support universal background checks.

And yes, there is a gun show loophole Dixie Lou. Only someone with their head up the ass of the NRA wouldn't be able to understand that. It has been exposed by investigators posing as buyers with hidden cameras at seven gun shows across Ohio, Tennessee and Nevada.

These investigators told the private sellers that they "probably couldn't pass a background check" -- and at that point, the seller should have sent them away. Because even private sellers are prohibited by federal law from selling to those who they have reason to suspect could not pass a background check.

Instead, 19 out of 30 private sellers made the sale.

Private sellers can legally sell their weapons without a background check= a loophole right there. Not every sale has a background check.

These so-called private sellers are supposed to be making only occasional sales. According to federal law, they cannot be "engaged in the business" of selling firearms. But that's exactly what investigators found. They found private sellers with large inventories doing a brisk business. In fact, one private seller acknowledged selling 348 guns in less than a year.

There IS a loophole in the gun show law that allows a big gun dealer to pose as little uncle Joe selling a gun or two, and circumvent doing a background check.

FACT: Gun sellers who claim to be “occasional sellers” are not required by current federal law to conduct background checks on their customers. Furthermore, there is no clear definition of how many guns a person can sell as an “occasional seller” – it could be dozens, or even hundreds.

The Firearm Owners' Protection Act (FOPA) states: 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(21)(D), (22). Those not “engaged in the business” of dealing guns are exempt from the licensure requirement.

So, closing the gun show loophole would not punish any law abiding gun owner.

And, as citizens, we can't stop a criminal from buying an illegal firearm from the trunk of another criminal in some dark alley.

But, that's where the criminal should be forced to buy a gun. In a totally illegal setting, with all the inherent dangers that come with it. BUT, our current laws sanction criminals being able to walk into a gun show, receive expert advice, discounts, then buy whatever weapon(s) they desire without a background check or having to pay black market prices or risk the dangers of buying a weapon from another criminal in a dark alley.

Here is some info on the loophole...

What is the gun show loophole?

Federal law allows people who sell guns to avoid running background checks or keeping records by calling themselves occasional sellers, and these sellers often congregate at gun shows. The loophole provides criminals with easy access to firearms without having to worry about any background checks.

• Current law requires licensed gun dealers to conduct background checks, because that is the only way to determine whether a person is eligible to buy a gun. Licensed dealers must also keep records about the buyer so ATF can trace the gun if it is recovered at a crime scene.
  

• The law does not, however, require so-called occasional sellers to do these checks – and there’s no clear definition of what qualifies as an occasional seller.[ii]

• Many sellers at gun shows abuse that loophole by calling themselves occasional sellers. Because they concentrate at gun shows, it is easy for felons and other prohibited possessors to find someone who will sell to them without a background check.

...........*ATF concluded that “gun shows and flea markets are a major venue for illegal trafficking.”[iii]

• Gun shows linked to the Pentagon Shooting: In March 2010, John Bedell – who was prohibited by law from possessing guns – shot two Pentagon police officers with a gun purchased from a private seller at a Las Vegas gun show.

• Gun shows were tied to a broad range of violations, including straw purchases and the sale of kits to convert legal guns into illegal machine guns.

Solution: Require occasional sellers to run instant background checks.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

You never answered my questions.

 

[Bfgrn]

You never answered my questions.

I see a few things you said that could be called questions. The first is mute because no one is calling for a ban on all weapons.

Second, I said before:

As citizens, we can't stop a criminal from buying an illegal firearm from the trunk of another criminal in some dark alley.

But, that's where the criminal should be forced to buy a gun. In a totally illegal setting, with all the inherent dangers that come with it. BUT, our current laws sanction criminals being able to walk into a gun show, receive expert advice, discounts, then buy whatever weapon(s) they desire without a background check or having to pay black market prices or risk the dangers of buying a weapon from another criminal in a dark alley.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I see a few things you said that could be called questions. The first is mute because no one is calling for a ban on all weapons.

Second, I said before:

As citizens, we can't stop a criminal from buying an illegal firearm from the trunk of another criminal in some dark alley.

But, that's where the criminal should be forced to buy a gun. In a totally illegal setting, with all the inherent dangers that come with it. BUT, our current laws sanction criminals being able to walk into a gun show, receive expert advice, discounts, then buy whatever weapon(s) they desire without a background check or having to pay black market prices or risk the dangers of buying a weapon from another criminal in a dark alley.

Yes, you are calling for nationwide gun control, and the only way we can have total public safety from gun violence, is to ensure there are no guns available to the public, this is the very nature of your argument. The logic that gun control prevents criminal violence only works if we ban guns entirely, like the UK. You keep idiotically repeating nonsense about "force criminals to buy illegally" as if they don't already have a compelling reason to buy weapons illegally! Criminals aren't obeying the law, and I doubt you're going to suddenly pass laws the criminals will obey! If you are concerned with the "back alley gun dealers" then your prohibitions and suggestions are going to create more of those, not less! The criminals always find ways to get around your laws. What you succeed in doing is, making it more difficult for law-abiding people to obtain weapons, and increased the black market for criminal elements through your prohibitions.

Again, I reject your nonsense about gun shows. You are mindlessly repeating propaganda from people who want to take your right to bear arms. Background checks are required for ALL firearm sales in America, including gun shows. If someone is bypassing the law, they should be prosecuted severely for it, and punished harshly. That fixes that problem. Criminals can always get guns, that's what is important for you to keep in mind, it doesn't matter what laws you pass. Gun control laws, stricter legislation on gun shows and dealers, more background checking, etc., doesn't really effect criminals, because most of them aren't interested in submitting to background checks, since they are criminals!

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

The President's proposal is reasonable and sensible gun legislation. Even the majority of NRA members support universal background checks.

If you go back and read my OP, I make this actual point myself, and I agree with much of what Obama outlines in his directives. You are right, most everybody agrees we need to have universal background checks, that's why we DO have these laws already. Maybe we need to start enforcing the law? Maybe we need to start back locking away the 'crazies' in society again? Maybe we need to stop promoting a culture of violence and death in our entertainment? There are MANY things we can do as a society to help prevent another tragedy like what happened in CT, without further restricting 2nd Amendment rights.

 

[Bfgrn]

Yes, you are calling for nationwide gun control, and the only way we can have total public safety from gun violence, is to ensure there are no guns available to the public, this is the very nature of your argument. The logic that gun control prevents criminal violence only works if we ban guns entirely, like the UK. You keep idiotically repeating nonsense about "force criminals to buy illegally" as if they don't already have a compelling reason to buy weapons illegally! Criminals aren't obeying the law, and I doubt you're going to suddenly pass laws the criminals will obey! If you are concerned with the "back alley gun dealers" then your prohibitions and suggestions are going to create more of those, not less! The criminals always find ways to get around your laws. What you succeed in doing is, making it more difficult for law-abiding people to obtain weapons, and increased the black market for criminal elements through your prohibitions.

Again, I reject your nonsense about gun shows. You are mindlessly repeating propaganda from people who want to take your right to bear arms. Background checks are required for ALL firearm sales in America, including gun shows. If someone is bypassing the law, they should be prosecuted severely for it, and punished harshly. That fixes that problem. Criminals can always get guns, that's what is important for you to keep in mind, it doesn't matter what laws you pass. Gun control laws, stricter legislation on gun shows and dealers, more background checking, etc., doesn't really effect criminals, because most of them aren't interested in submitting to background checks, since they are criminals!

I am calling for uniform gun laws. The only way to accomplish that is federal legislation. I am not calling for any law where there are no guns available to the public. But you NEED that to be my argument to make your phony argument Dixie Lou.

Law abiding citizens will still be able to buy weapons legally, just as they always have, so there is no prohibition. But criminals will not be able to buy weapons under the security and legitimacy of a gun show. They will be forced to buy a weapon from another criminal. And take all the inherent risks involved in dealing with another criminal. A criminal that might take his money and run, a criminal that might take his money and turn the weapon on the buyer. And I demand that criminals pay black market prices, not discounted prices at a gun show.

I have clearly shown you that background checks are NOT required for ALL firearm sales in America. You are either willfully ignorant or willfully dishonest.

 

[The Dude]

We can't stop illegal immigrants who we are told only want to pick strawberries and work construction from flocking across our border why would you think we could stop guns?

Also even with the UK having ZERO guns, they still have gun deaths. Which seems odd for a country with ZERO guns.

Now you might say, it is fewer than 11,000 so that is good, but would you want to be one of the 54?

Hey klansman England has thousands and thousands less murders annually
Further, most murders are committed by whites