Evidence that the Iranian drone attack on Israel was oked by the U.S. | Seymour Hersh

[Scott]

Even Wikipedia calls the October 7th attacks Hamas led:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel

You don't do yourself any favors by citing Wikipedia.

I disagree. Now, it's certainly true that I don't always agree with articles on Wikipedia, but Wikipedia tends to follow the mainstream interpretation of things. So what I'm saying is that the mainstream agrees with me that Hamas is the one that led the attacks in Israel. Now, if you have evidence that shows otherwise, by all means present it.

As to the Al Qassam brigades, they are simply the military wing of Hamas. Again from Wikipedia:
**
The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades (abbreviated as IQB;[12][note 1] Arabic: كتائب الشهيد عز الدين القسام, romanized: Katāib al-Shahīd 'izz ad-Dīn al-Qassām [citation needed], lit. 'Battalions of martyr Izz ad-Din al-Qassam'; often shortened to Al-Qassam Brigades[13]), named after Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, is the military wing of the Palestinian organization Hamas.[12][14][15] Currently led by Mohammed Deif, IQB is the largest and best-equipped militant group operating within Gaza today.[12]
**
Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izz_ad-Din_al-Qassam_Brigades

Al Qassam is a militant terrorist group. Al Qassam does not equal Hamas. Israel is not justified in killing "Hamas leaders" just because Al Qassam attacked them. Nobody gets to pin the blame for a crime to anyone not involved in the crime.

We actually agree on most of this. As Wikipedia mentions, the al-Qassam Brigades are the military wing of Hamas, but as the description implies, there are other wings of Hamas, such as the diplomatic one. According to an article from The Times of Israel, referencing a Saudi-owned newspaper:
**
the terror group was so determined to keep details of the plan under wraps to prevent potential leaks to Israeli intelligence that even many of the battalion commanders weren’t told what was happening. The terrorists recruited for the operation were not told what they were training for, and were made to swear an oath of secrecy.

The report said that the final decision launching the assault was made by just five senior members of Hamas — Gaza military leader Yahya Sinwar, armed-wing commander Muhammad Deif, Muhammed Sinwar (brother of the Hamas leader), senior member of Hamas politburo and Sinwar confidant Rawhi Mushtaha, and Ayman Nofal, a member of the terror group’s General Military Council and the head of its military wing’s Central Gaza Brigade, who was killed in an Israeli strike in Gaza in October.
**

Your attempt to impute blame for Iran's attack (that was carried out by Al Qassam) onto "Gazans" by imputing blame via collective punishment is completely immoral.

I'm simply pointing out that I have seen no evidence that Iran was even aware when the attack was to take place, let alone having any role in planning it. I have never blamed all Gazans for the attack. Furthermore, there is evidence that many of those killed on October 7th, the number currently being held at around 1,200, weren't actually killed by Hamas operatives. Quoting an article on the subject from The Grayzone:
**
Israeli tank gunner reveals orders to fire indiscriminately into kibbutz — report

WYATT REED AND MAX BLUMENTHAL·NOVEMBER 27, 2023

New disclosures add to the growing body of evidence indicating many Israelis who died on October 7 were killed by the Israeli military. Meanwhile, the Israeli government has muzzled captives freed from Gaza to prevent further damage to the official narrative.

Firsthand testimony by admittedly inexperienced Israeli tank operators reveals orders to open fire upon Israeli communities when Palestinian militants breached the fences encircling Gaza on October 7.

A glowing profile [twitter link in original] of an all-female tank company by Israel’s N12 News network contains admissions by the 20-year-old captain — identified only as ‘Karni’ — that she was ordered by a “panicked” soldier to open fire on homes in the Holit kibbutz whether they contained civilians or not.
**

Full article:
Israeli tank gunner reveals orders to fire indiscriminately into kibbutz — report | The Grayzone

Your attempt to justify Israel's genocide is completely immoral.

I've never justified Israel's subsequent genocide of the Gazan population. Thought you would know that by now.

Iran attacked Israel (via Al Qassam) and if Israel wishes to dispense justice on those who are responsible for the attack, great, they can have at it. The moment they start killing Arabs who never attacked them just because Israelis HATE Arabs, they have crossed the line and should be held accountable.

Your argument would be a lot better if you dispensed with this claim that Iran had any direct role in the October 7th attacks. We can agree that Iran donated a significant amount of weapons to Hamas, but I think that's as far as we can agree here.

Wikipedia is not an authoritative source, and is awash in errors and political propaganda,

As I've mentioned previously, there have certainly been times where I have disagreed with articles from Wikipedia. However, I appreciate the fact that they always publicly reference sources for their claims, which is something that many news sources, including mainstream news sources, don't do.

I know that you've stuck faithfully to this notion that Iran attacked Israel, but to date, I've seen no hard evidence of this.

I know that you've stuck faithfully to refusing to see the absurdity of your narrative

I almost always provide source material for my claims- I see that in this post of yours that I'm responding to, you haven't provided a single source for any of your claims. Let the audience judge for themselves as to what that means.

As a matter of fact, it seems Iran may have only known that Hamas might have been planning something.

This misconception of yours stems from your deliberate refusal to acknowledge Israel's announcements on the matter when they happened.

I remember reading an article wherein some Israeli official speculated that Iran was involved. That's all I've seen. If you'd like to provide some solid evidence for your claim, by all means do so.

I've read that the only ones who truly knew the plan were the Hamas leadership that was in Gaza itself.

... and you read Wikipedia.

Certainly, but I've also read from other sources as well. I even reference some of these other sources in this very post. I can no longer find the article I remember reading that stated that only Hamas leaders within Gaza knew what was going to happen, but the articles I've referenced above mention only 5 Hamas leaders. Feel free to investigate if they were all in Gaza at the time of the attack if you like, but the fact remains, the Israeli newspaper articles are basically stating that the evidence pointed to just 5 Hamas leaders were in the know in the days prior to the attack.

It was Al Qassam who kept a tight lid on the operation so that no one would find out. Your declaration that "Hamas knew everything" is false and totally self-serving.

I never said "Hamas knew everything". As quoted above, the evidence suggests that there were only 5 senior Hamas members who knew the plan prior to its launching. Not all of them were part of Al Qassam, but certainly the Al Qassam leader and his brother were 2 of those who knew.

Hamas and other Palestinian resistance groups have killed some Israelies in the past,

Al Qassam, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad have killed Israelis (small numbers, as you have stated) and Israelis, in turn, kill Arabs who never attacked Israel.

Agreed. I think we could also agree that some in the groups you mentioned have killed some Israelis that never attacked Palestinians as well. The difference is in numbers- Israelis tend to kill way more Palestinian civilians than the other way around.

I also think the most important thing to remember is why these Palestinian groups are doing this to begin with,

They're not.

Are you really disputing that the al-Qassam brigades are the military wing of Hamas?

...which I think is clearly to create a better life for Palestinians.

Sorry, but that is, in no way, the Ayatollah's motivation for attacking Israel.

We can certainly agree that Iran has given Hamas weapons. I don't want to speculate what Iran's motives are for doing so, but I'd like to believe that part of it is to try to help Palestinians regain some of their lost freedom. As to whether that's the best way to go about it, I really don't know.

 

[IBDaMann]

Wikipedia tends to follow the mainstream interpretation of things.

Nope. Wikipedia tries to revise reality. It is run by Marxists. I used to be a contributor. I made it my job to eliminate bias and unsupported opinions. The Marxists running Wikipedia comb every word to ensure it adheres to the far left, and pushes extremist opinion as absolute truth. Once they had word-smithed an article for political effectiveness, they lock it down so that nobody can remove the bias and unsupported opinions.

Wikipedia is leftist propaganda, that's why you cannot find any Wikis that give a fair shake to any conservative views, and push all the lunatic left talking points as though they are supported by centuries of exhaustive, unbiased research.

I discard Wikipedia summarily.

Now, if you have evidence that shows otherwise, by all means present it.

I already told you, the conclusive evidence is not on the internet. I won't be producing it for you. I tried to point you in the right direction so that you can perform independent research, but you won't perform any research outside of those sources that already confirm your bias.

I don't care what you believe; you just won't be correct if you delude yourself into believing that Iran was not the attacker on Oct 7th, or if you believe that someone other than Iran is responsible for attacks on Israel.

As Wikipedia mentions, the al-Qassam Brigades are the military wing of Hamas

Wikipedia is similarly trying to tie Hamas to the attack. Hamas had nothing to do with the attack. The Ayatollah did not see fit to let Hamas in on the secret ... or anybody else.

... there are other wings of Hamas

Hamas is a political party. Whenever some leftist nutcase disrupts logging, we don't throw the DNC in jail.

Al Qassam answers to the Ayatollah, not to Hamas. The Ayatollah is writing the checks and calling the shots. Hamas has nothing.

The report said that the final decision launching the assault was made by just five senior members of Hamas

They meant "five senior members of Al Qassam" ... Yahya Sinwar, Muhammad Deif and Muhammed Sinwar are Al Qassam. They should answer for their crimes.

I'm simply pointing out that I have seen no evidence ...

I know, I know ... you won't "see" evidence to the contrary that is put right in front of you.

... that Iran was even aware when the attack was to take place,

Iran is the only one that attacks Israel. There's a reason you can't recall any attacks by anyone else.

Your argument would be a lot better if you dispensed with this claim that Iran had any direct role

You'd actually acquire some credibility if you would dispense with this crazy idea that someone other than Iran attacks Israel. I get it that you need to believe that inner resolute strength of the Gazans rallied them to oppose the great tyranny of Israel.

That's not what happened. It's a nice sentiment ... but it's not what happened.

We can agree that Iran donated a significant amount of weapons to Hamas,

We do not agree. Iran funded, planned and authorized every aspect of the operation.

As I've mentioned previously, there have certainly been times where I have disagreed with articles from Wikipedia.

Wikipedia is a nonauthoritative source. You pick and choose the sources with whom you agree based on the extent to which they agree with you.

I see that in this post of yours that I'm responding to, you haven't provided a single source for any of your claims.

Correct. I'll point you in the right direction, and thereafter, I don't care what you believe.

I remember reading an article wherein some Israeli official speculated that Iran was involved.

I'm surprised that you were able to bring yourself to look at it.

the Israeli newspaper articles are basically stating that the evidence pointed to just 5 Hamas leaders were in the know in the days prior to the attack.

Israeli sources will all tie Hamas into the attack and will never even name Al Qassam.

Are you really disputing that the al-Qassam brigades are the military wing of Hamas?

I reject the narrative that you have gullibly adopted, i.e. that Al Qassam somehow answers to Hamas even though the Ayatollah pays them, to the tune of $100 million/year. The Ayatollah does not pay them to do anyone else's bidding.

I don't want to speculate what Iran's motives are for doing so,

You don't have to speculate. The Ayatollah of Iran wants to declare himself the next Mohammed (the twelfth Imam) and that can only happen if he can plausibly claim that Israel is destroyed. Iran will forever attack Israel.

 

[Scott]

I disagree. Now, it's certainly true that I don't always agree with articles on Wikipedia, but Wikipedia tends to follow the mainstream interpretation of things.

Nope. Wikipedia tries to revise reality. It is run by Marxists. I used to be a contributor. I made it my job to eliminate bias and unsupported opinions. The Marxists running Wikipedia comb every word to ensure it adheres to the far left, and pushes extremist opinion as absolute truth. Once they had word-smithed an article for political effectiveness, they lock it down so that nobody can remove the bias and unsupported opinions.

Wikipedia is leftist propaganda, that's why you cannot find any Wikis that give a fair shake to any conservative views, and push all the lunatic left talking points as though they are supported by centuries of exhaustive, unbiased research.

I discard Wikipedia summarily.

I have heard that Wikipedia leans more to the left and even that there's a Wikipedia equivalent that's more to the right. Since I generally don't pay attention to left/right divisions, I find that it's generally good enough for a starting point. Anyway, we're veering far off from where we started. Going back to the start of this tangent, I have seen no credible source that states anything other than that Hamas was the sole designer of the October 7th attack. If you can find one, by all means present it.

So what I'm saying is that the mainstream agrees with me that Hamas is the one that led the attacks in Israel. Now, if you have evidence that shows otherwise, by all means present it.

I already told you, the conclusive evidence is not on the internet.

I never said conclusive evidence, just good, solid evidence.

I tried to point you in the right direction so that you can perform independent research

What you're asking for here is what I call asking your opponent to do your homework for you. I provide evidence for my own assertions. If you can't or won't do the same for yours, I think that says a lot about them. But we can let the audience decide for themselves.

As Wikipedia mentions, the al-Qassam Brigades are the military wing of Hamas

Wikipedia is similarly trying to tie Hamas to the attack.

I can agree with you that Wikipedia can at times be biased, but Wikipedia definitely isn't the only source saying that Hamas was the sole planner of the October 7th attack. I've already quoted news outlet publications in previous posts saying the same thing, and even going so far as to saying that there were 5 Hamas leaders who decided when to initiate said attack.

there are other wings of Hamas, such as the diplomatic one.

Hamas is a political party. Whenever some leftist nutcase disrupts logging, we don't throw the DNC in jail.

Al Qassam answers to the Ayatollah, not to Hamas. The Ayatollah is writing the checks and calling the shots. Hamas has nothing.

You can, ofcourse, continue to claim that Al Qassam is not the military wing of Hamas, but I have yet to see a single news article that disputes this claim.

According to an article from The Times of Israel, referencing a Saudi-owned newspaper:
**
the terror group was so determined to keep details of the plan under wraps to prevent potential leaks to Israeli intelligence that even many of the battalion commanders weren’t told what was happening. The terrorists recruited for the operation were not told what they were training for, and were made to swear an oath of secrecy.

The report said that the final decision launching the assault was made by just five senior members of Hamas — Gaza military leader Yahya Sinwar, armed-wing commander Muhammad Deif, Muhammed Sinwar (brother of the Hamas leader), senior member of Hamas politburo and Sinwar confidant Rawhi Mushtaha, and Ayman Nofal, a member of the terror group’s General Military Council and the head of its military wing’s Central Gaza Brigade, who was killed in an Israeli strike in Gaza in October.
**

They meant "five senior members of Al Qassam" ... Yahya Sinwar, Muhammad Deif and Muhammed Sinwar are Al Qassam. They should answer for their crimes.

I'm curious, who do you think is in charge of Hamas in the Gaza strip? Wikipedia states that it is none other than Yahya Sinwar (his name appears on the right hand side, after "Leader of the Gaza strip"):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

I'm simply pointing out that I have seen no evidence that Iran was even aware when the attack was to take place, let alone having any role in planning it.

Iran is the only one that attacks Israel.

You just can't find any evidence on the internet for your assertion, right?

We can agree that Iran donated a significant amount of weapons to Hamas, but I think that's as far as we can agree here.

We do not agree. Iran funded, planned and authorized every aspect of the operation.

Again, we are in agreement that Iran helped fund Hamas, but that's where our agreement ends. As to your other assertions here, let me know if you ever find any evidence for them on the internet.

As I've mentioned previously, there have certainly been times where I have disagreed with articles from Wikipedia. However, I appreciate the fact that they always publicly reference sources for their claims, which is something that many news sources, including mainstream news sources, don't do.

Wikipedia is a nonauthoritative source. You pick and choose the sources with whom you agree based on the extent to which they agree with you.

I choose sources that I find logical and evidence based. If I start finding that there is more evidence for a view I previously disagreed with, I can and have changed my mind. So far, I have found no solid evidence that Iran did anything other than partially fund Hamas' military operations. You even seem to concur that there is no solid evidence on the internet that would indicate otherwise.

I almost always provide source material for my claims- I see that in this post of yours that I'm responding to, you haven't provided a single source for any of your claims.

Correct. I'll point you in the right direction, and thereafter, I don't care what you believe.

What you call pointing someone in the right direction I call suggesting your debating opponent does your homework for you. I provide evidence for my own assertions- if you can't or won't provide evidence for yours, I think it's best to just leave it at that and let the audience decide whose arguments are more credible.

I remember reading an article wherein some Israeli official speculated that Iran was involved.

I'm surprised that you were able to bring yourself to look at it.

I'm curious as to why. I've looked at a lot of articles. The bottom line here is that said Israeli official had no concrete evidence for his speculation. Anyone can speculate about anything and come up with all sorts of off the wall theories. The way to differentiate the good theories from the bad is to look at the evidence supporting them.

Feel free to investigate if they were all in Gaza at the time of the attack if you like, but the fact remains, the Israeli newspaper articles are basically stating that the evidence pointed to just 5 Hamas leaders were in the know in the days prior to the attack.

Israeli sources will all tie Hamas into the attack and will never even name Al Qassam.

Even Wikipedia, the supposed bastion of leftist disinformation according to you, has an article on the Al Qassam brigades. Your problem is that they state that they're the military wing of Hamas. If you can't find any evidence on the internet that this isn't the case, you have a credibility problem.

Are you really disputing that the al-Qassam brigades are the military wing of Hamas?

I reject the narrative that you have gullibly adopted, i.e. that Al Qassam somehow answers to Hamas even though the Ayatollah pays them, to the tune of $100 million/year. The Ayatollah does not pay them to do anyone else's bidding.

Again, making unsubstantiated assertions does you no favours. And Wikipedia certainly isn't the only publication that asserts that the al-Qassam brigades are the military wing of Hamas. Here's an article from Al Jazeera that connects the 2 in the title:
What is Hamas’s armed wing, the Qassam Brigades? | Al Jazeera

I don't want to speculate what Iran's motives are for doing so,

You don't have to speculate. The Ayatollah of Iran wants to declare himself the next Mohammed (the twelfth Imam) and that can only happen if he can plausibly claim that Israel is destroyed. Iran will forever attack Israel.

You make a lot of unsubstantiated claims above, followed by a 25 minute video. Are you suggesting that your claims are substantiated by the video?

 

[IBDaMann]

I have heard that Wikipedia leans more to the left

Nope. Wikipedia does not "lean" to the left. Wikipedia toes the party line completely. I'll tell you what, soon I will start a Wikipedia thread. Stay tuned.

Since I generally don't pay attention to left/right divisions,

Nope. You let it form the basis for your thought process. Check the next thing you write ...

I find that it's generally good enough for a starting point.

This is absolutely the worst "starting point" you could possibly choose.

I have seen no credible source

You are a broken record. You refuse to look at any evidence that contradicts the narrative that Wikipedia has told you adopt. I tried to provide you videos that showed the true bigger picture, and you knee-jerked the lamest excuses: "That's just one man's opinion!" and "That doesn't prove anything." I remember thinking to myself "You just absorbed propaganda from Wikipedia and now you are giving me pushback on correct information?"

As long as you and I both recognize that you are totally irrational on this subject, that no amount of evidence and/or common sense can shake you of your absorbed narrative, that you have absolutely no intention of learning anything that runs counter to the beliefs you have been told to have, we can proceed forward with a mutual understanding.

Nobody but Iran (and its partners) attacks Israel. Nobody uses Iran's money for anything but the Ayatollah's bidding. The Ayatollah cares nothing for Gazans or Palestinians or their causes, but the Ayatollah sure as hell wants/needs Israel destroyed. You will not allow yourself to accept any of this, right?

I never said conclusive evidence, just good, solid evidence.

You will not allow yourself to accept any of it. Say it with me "That doesn't prove anything!" Case closed.

What you're asking for here is what I call asking your opponent to do your homework for you.

Nope. I don't care if you perform your own independent research or not. It was patently obvious to me that you had not performed any sort of independent research. It was clear that you were too lazy to find out anything on your own, and that you were operating entirely within what you were told to believe, and were too lazy to apply any sort of critical reasoning. I figured I would help you out by showing you what kind of information you should be seeking, i.e. point you in the right direction. Soon thereafter I realized that your narrative was just too important to you and that you were loathe to lose it, or to even have it challenged. You weren't willing to do any sort of actual research and you summarily rejected everything I handed to you.

All I can say is "enjoy your narrative." Don't let the matter of Iran being the only one who attacks Israel throw a wrench into your beliefs.

I provide evidence for my own assertions.

You have never supported your assertion that Al Qassam used Iran's funding to attack Israel in a way that was not authorized by Iran. You're aware that Al Qassam receives about $100 million annually from Iran to do the Ayatollah's bidding, but you assert that Iran somehow did not want Israel attacked in the manner of Oct 7th, but Al Qassam flipped Iran the bird and just attacked Israel in the way that Al Qassam wanted, to hell with what the Ayatollah wants, right? I don't recall you ever supporting this assertion.

If you can't or won't do the same for yours,

How do you imagine that I can somehow make you do your research? I already told you that the conclusive evidence is not on the internet, but I gave you some ideas of how you can get it.

I can agree with you that Wikipedia can at times be biased, but Wikipedia definitely isn't the only source saying that Hamas was the sole planner of the October 7th attack.

Just tell me that 97% of all news sources agree that Iran was not involved, and that Global Warming is real.

I've already quoted news outlet publications in previous posts saying the same thing,

Now start doing some real research that isn't on the internet.

You can, ofcourse, continue to claim that Al Qassam is not the military wing of Hamas,

Don't misquote me. I stated that Al Qassam is acting completely independently of Hamas, with Iran paying Al Qassam's salaries. Why do you think Al Qassam, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad all answer to the Ayatollah?

Iran doesn't pay Hamas, and Hamas is not informed of Iran's attacks on Israel.

but I have yet to see a single news article that disputes this claim.

You wouldn't "see" any of them if you were to actually see them.

I'm curious, who do you think is in charge of Hamas in the Gaza strip?

The leader of Hamas is not Mohammed Deif, the leader of Al Qassam.

Again, we are in agreement that Iran helped fund Hamas,

Nope. Iran does not fund Hamas.

I choose sources that I find logical and evidence based.

Nope. You choose sources based on the amount of thinking they will do for you. You clearly HATE sources that make you think for yourself, believing that that is simply too much work.

If I start finding that there is more evidence for a view I previously disagreed with,

We can already conclude that this isn't going to happen. You will never allow yourself to see what you would need to see, because there will be cognitive work involved. It just isn't going to happen.

Let's just proceed forward understanding that you are going to force yourself into bizarre, contorted, unrealistic explanations for everything going on, and your explanations will snowball in absurdity. Otherwise, I don't particularly need for you to change your view in any way.

So far, I have found no solid evidence that Iran did anything other than

You're a broken record. This should be your first clue.

What you call pointing someone in the right direction I call [making me do a lot of work]

Cry me a river. My suggestion, take the easy road and continue not doing any sort of real research. Enjoy a day at the park with your family.

Even Wikipedia, the supposed bastion of leftist disinformation [according to you, has an article on the Al Qassam brigades.

... which immediately opens by stating that Al Qassam is the military wing of Hamas ... which you immediately absorbed without question. Wikipedia isn't merely a starting point for you, you regurgitate Wikipedia in its entirety, with all of its disinformation and bajillions of other errors, without ever questioning any of it or ever calling booooolsch't, simply because you are too lazy to accomplish the hard work of independent research, and Wikipedia is kind enough to do your thinking for you.

Your problem is that they state that they're the military wing of Hamas.

Nope. You have explained by it is your problem.

If you can't find any evidence on the internet that this isn't the case, you have a credibility problem.

You have explained why you have a huge credibility problem. You have deluded yourself into believing that your credibility problem is somehow my credibility problem.

Are you suggesting that your claims are substantiated by the video?

Nope. I added the video because I thought it might be of value to people performing independent research on the situation in Gaza.

 

[Walt]

Arab children who attacked Israel: 0

Hamas has been very eager to use children to attack Israel. I cannot give you an exact number, but it was greater than zero.

And Hamas specifically targeted Israeli children when it attacked.

 

[IBDaMann]

Hamas has been very eager to use children to attack Israel. I cannot give you an exact number, but it was greater than zero.

First, Hamas doesn't attack Israel. Iran attacks Israel, through Al Qassam, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad. Nobody else attacks Israel.

Second, I notice your insistence on dishonestly equating "Hamas" with "Al Qassam." You're not going to fool me.

Third, I am familiar with the teaching of Arab children to HATE Jews, but Arabs don't like losing their children any more than anyone else. They do not somehow send their children into war any more than Americans do.

The number is zero.

And Hamas specifically targeted Israeli children when it attacked.

First, Hamas never attacked Israel. Iran attacked Israel through its proxy Al Qassam.

Second, the Oct 7th attack was indirect fire. Ask me how I know that you were never a soldier.

 

[Walt]

First, Hamas doesn't attack Israel. Iran attacks Israel, through Al Qassam, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad. Nobody else attacks Israel.

If Iran attacked Israel, then a counter attack on an Iranian military command center in Syria is completely acceptable.

The fact is Al Qassam is Hamas' military. It is like claiming the US did not attack someone, it was the US Army. If Hamas feels its military acted without its permission, it really should have said something before now.

And it really does not matter. There were Arab children in Al Qassam, so the number of Arab children that attacked Israel is still greater than zero. Al Qassam does not ban recruitment of children.

Third, I am familiar with the teaching of Arab children to HATE Jews, but Arabs don't like losing their children any more than anyone else. They do not somehow send their children into war any more than Americans do.

Hamas has shown no interest in banning child soldiers. There was a time that the rest of the world had child soldiers. Much of the rest of the world has moved on.

 

[IBDaMann]

If Iran attacked Israel, then a counter attack on an Iranian military command center in Syria is completely acceptable.

Absolutely. That's the elephant in the room. The IDF isn't destroying Iran's military facilities/assets anywhere. The IDF is simply slaughtering civilian noncombatants that never attacked Israel ... by the thousands ... just to kill Arabs and to destroy Gaza.

The fact is Al Qassam is Hamas' military.

Nope. the fact is that you are stuck in propaganda mode, and it isn't working.

The fact is that Al Qassam is its own independent organization that operates independently from Hamas, doing the bidding of the Ayatollah, not of Hamas. Tell me what part of that you have trouble understanding.

It is like claiming the US did not attack someone, it was the US Army.

Nope. It's like claiming the US did not attack someone, it was the French Army.

If Hamas feels its military acted without its permission, it really should have said something before now.

Hamas doesn't have a military. The Ayatollah, however, has several.

Don't think I'm not noticing your dishonest insistence that Hamas = Al Qassam. It doesn't. Al Qassam gets roughly $100 million/year to do the Ayatollah's bidding. Hamas gets zero because Hamas doesn't attack Israel.

There were Arab children in Al Qassam, so the number of Arab children that attacked Israel is still greater than zero.

There were no children that attacked Israel. Zero.

Al Qassam does not ban recruitment of children.

Al Qassam teaches children to HATE Jews. Al Qassam does not send children to attack Israel.

All of your assertions are absurd. Would you please just jump to where you claim that Al Qassam are space aliens who eat their young?

 

[Scott]

I have heard that Wikipedia leans more to the left

Nope. Wikipedia does not "lean" to the left. Wikipedia toes the party line completely.

Which party exactly?

I'll tell you what, soon I will start a Wikipedia thread. Stay tuned.

Alright.

Since I generally don't pay attention to left/right divisions,

Nope. You let it form the basis for your thought process. Check the next thing you write ...

You seem to be assuming that Wikipedia is my only source. I've already demonstrated that this isn't the case.

I find that it's generally good enough for a starting point.

This is absolutely the worst "starting point" you could possibly choose.

We clearly disagree there, but feel free to provide any evidence for your assertion if you like.

Anyway, we're veering far off from where we started. Going back to the start of this tangent, I have seen no credible source that states anything other than that Hamas was the sole designer of the October 7th attack. If you can find one, by all means present it.

You are a broken record. You refuse to look at any evidence that contradicts the narrative that Wikipedia has told you adopt.

Absolute nonsense. There have been times when I have outright disagreed with Wikipedia articles. Their page on vaccines comes to mind. In case you're unaware, I think that all vaccines are harmful and provide no benefits. But at least they have sections in their article on vaccine adverse events.

I tried to provide you videos that showed the true bigger picture, and you knee-jerked the lamest excuses: "That's just one man's opinion!" and "That doesn't prove anything." I remember thinking to myself "You just absorbed propaganda from Wikipedia and now you are giving me pushback on correct information?"

As I just demonstrated, I certainly don't always agree with Wikipedia articles, but I stand by my statement that I think that Wikipedia is a pretty good place to start. I'm amenable to the idea that there may be better places, but so far it's frequently been my go to when it comes to learning about a subject I know little about. As to videos, they are generally my least favourite way to learn about a subject that I'm debating. A large part of the reason is that in order to use material from a video, one frequently has to transcribe what is said first, and that can definitely take a significant amount of time. Furthermore, if a video simply consists of some person offering an opinion, it's not very useful even if one takes the time to transcribe it. What I tend to look for are sources that offer evidence for their claims- people who voice opinions and don't back them up with evidence are generally poor sources of information in my view.

As long as you and I both recognize that you are totally irrational on this subject,

We clearly don't agree there. It would be nice if we could agree that solid evidence forms the basis for any solid argument.

Nobody but Iran (and its partners) attacks Israel. Nobody uses Iran's money for anything but the Ayatollah's bidding. The Ayatollah cares nothing for Gazans or Palestinians or their causes, but the Ayatollah sure as hell wants/needs Israel destroyed. You will not allow yourself to accept any of this, right?

Not without evidence, no. Furthermore, I've seen plenty of evidence that Hamas can act independently from Iran. I believe the October 7th attack on Israel by Hamas is a good example of that.

 

[Scott]

I already told you, the conclusive evidence is not on the internet.

I never said conclusive evidence, just good, solid evidence.

You will not allow yourself to accept any of it. Say it with me "That doesn't prove anything!" Case closed.

If I said "That doesn't prove anything" at some point in the past (I think you're suggesting it was in response to a video of. yours), it's probably because I felt that said video didn't have any solid evidence.

I tried to point you in the right direction so that you can perform independent research,

What you're asking for here is what I call asking your opponent to do your homework for you.

Nope. I don't care if you perform your own independent research or not. It was patently obvious to me that you had not performed any sort of independent research.

Your problem here is that you have equated what you think of as the "right direction" to mean the same thing as "independent research". I definitely independently research any subject I write about.

It was clear that you were too lazy to find out anything on your own, and that you were operating entirely within what you were told to believe,

Told by who?

I figured I would help you out by showing you what kind of information you should be seeking, i.e. point you in the right direction.

There you go again with your "right direction". I find it sad that on the one hand you say that I am "operating entirely with what [I am] told to believe" and in the very next sentence make it rather clear that what you'd -like- is that I believe what you tell me to believe. We've certainly agreed on some subjects, such as the genocide being perpetrated on Gazans, but you'd do well to try to understand -why- we disagree on others.

Soon thereafter I realized that your narrative was just too important to you and that you were loathe to lose it, or to even have it challenged.

If I weren't willing to have my beliefs challenged, I probably would have stopped writing in forums decades ago.

All I can say is "enjoy your narrative." Don't let the matter of Iran being the only one who attacks Israel throw a wrench into your beliefs.

You keep on stating your belief that Iran is the only one who attacks Israel. It's fine for you to state your belief- your problem, at least as far as I'm concerned, is that you haven't provided any compelling evidence for this belief.

 

[Scott]

I provide evidence for my own assertions.

You have never supported your assertion that Al Qassam used Iran's funding to attack Israel in a way that was not authorized by Iran.

I never even made that assertion. Let's rewind a bit. I have certainly heard that Iran funds Hamas. As to how much money Iran gives Hamas, I have heard the $100 million figure you mention later on. Just so you know, Wikipedia actually has it too:
**
According to a 2020 U.S. State Department report, Iran provides about $100 million annually to Palestinian militant groups, including Hamas.[4]
**

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_support_for_Hamas

Now, I know, you don't like Wikipedia as a source, but remember that Wikipedia always has sources for its material. In this case, it's an article from the Washington Post:
Hamas received weapons and training from Iran, officials say | Washington Post

Now, what I -don't- currently know is how Hamas distributes the money it gets. Which is why I have definitely not asserted that anything about how how Al-Qassam has used any funding it has received, as I'm not even sure how much money Hamas has given the Al-Qassam brigades.

You're aware that Al Qassam receives about $100 million annually from Iran to do the Ayatollah's bidding,

No, I'm not. Here's what the U.S. State Department said in its Country Reports on Terrorism 2021:
**
Iran also provides up to $100 million annually in combined support to Palestinian terrorist groups, including Hamas, Palestine Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command.
**

As you can see, not only is there no mention of the Al Qassam brigades there, we're not even told how much of this "up to $100 million" is going to Hamas instead of other armed Palestinian groups.

but you assert that Iran somehow did not want Israel attacked in the manner of Oct 7th,

I never asserted that. I said that I've seen no evidence that Iran had any specific knowledge of when the attack was going to take place, or the specifics of what the attack would entail. From what I've seen, and I've quoted Israeli news outlets on this, the plan's design and execution were carried out by 5 Hamas leaders, whose names we've gone over before.

 

[Walt]

The IDF isn't destroying Iran's military facilities/assets anywhere.

Iran just struck back at Israel for destroying a military command facility in a consulate in Syria. Iran says two generals were killed. If this is a lie, then Iran struck back over nothing.

The fact is that Al Qassam is its own independent organization that operates independently from Hamas, doing the bidding of the Ayatollah, not of Hamas. Tell me what part of that you have trouble understanding.

Then Hamas should tell someone. Why hasn't Hamas proclaimed their innocence? Why haven't they told the world that they have nothing to do with Al Qassam? Could it be because Al Qassam is the military of Hamas, and Hamas supports them?

There were no children that attacked Israel. Zero.

Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran all use child soldiers. Both Hamas and Hezbollah have used child soldiers against Israel.

Al Qassam does not send children to attack Israel.

Al Qassam has no age limits on soldiers. It uses child soldiers.

Would you please just jump to where you claim that Al Qassam are space aliens who eat their young?

The use of child soldiers is not historically unusual. It does not require space aliens, but rather normal humans.

 

[Scott]

I provide evidence for my own assertions. If you can't or won't do the same for yours, I think that says a lot about them.

How do you imagine that I can somehow make you do your research?

This has nothing to do with making me do anything. It's simply a matter of providing solid evidence for your own claims.

I already told you that the conclusive evidence is not on the internet, but I gave you some ideas of how you can get it.

And I already told you that you don't need to provide conclusive evidence for your claims to be persuasive, but you do need to atleast provide -solid- evidence. Or are you saying that you can't find any solid evidence for your claims on the internet either?

I can agree with you that Wikipedia can at times be biased, but Wikipedia definitely isn't the only source saying that Hamas was the sole planner of the October 7th attack.

Just tell me that 97% of all news sources agree that Iran was not involved, and that Global Warming is real.

Somehow, I don't think me telling you that would help this discussion. Anyway, you may be happy to know that I have now found some evidence that Iran may have had some involvement in the October 7th attack. I found this evidence in multiple news outlets, but I like primary sources- I think the most important one is Iran International. I know you don't like Wikipedia, but for they are quite convenient when it comes to getting information quickly on a given source of information. Quoting from their article on Iran International:
**
Iran International (Persian: ایران اینترنشنال) is a Persian-language news television channel headquartered in London aimed at Iranian viewers,[1] and broadcasting free-to-air by satellite. Iran International was established in May 2017 and has broadcast its programmes from both London and Washington, D.C. In February 2023, Iran International moved its headquarters temporarily to Washington, D.C. due to increased threats from the Iranian government against Iran International's UK-based journalists,[2] but back to London in September 2023.[3] It is available online, via radio and via satellite broadcasting worldwide including Iran. Iran International is owned by Volant Media UK Ltd. and has been charged of being an arm of Saudi Arabia.[4][5]
**

Alright, with that said on Iran International's background, here's an excerpt from their article:
**

Iranian General Killed In Israeli Strike Was Architect Of October 7

Thursday, April 4, 2024

An ultra-conservative political group in Iran said slain IRGC commander*Mohammad Reza Zahedi was involved in the planning and execution of Hamas’s deadly October 7 attack against Israel.

It is the clearest admission of Iran’s involvement in the atrocities which saw 1,200 mostly civilians murdered and over 250 taken hostage, since terror group Hamas invaded Israel on October 7.

Zahedi, along with his deputy and five other IRGC forces, were killed Monday in an*Israeli airstrike*against Iran's consulate building in the Syrian capital Damascus.

In a statement issued Wednesday, Coalition Council of Islamic Revolution Forces (also known by its Persian acronym SHANA) hailed Zahedi’s “strategic role in forming and strengthening the resistance front as well as in planning and executing*the Al-Aqsa Storm.”

“Axis of resistance” or “resistance front” are the terms coined and employed by the Iranian authorities to refer to Tehran’s proxies in the region, such as*Hamas, Hezbollah,*Hashd al-Shaabi*and Yemeni Houthis.

Iran has time and again denied its involvement in the incident, saying Hamas and other Tehran-backed armed groups in the region make their own decisions and act independently.

However,*the Iranian regime swiftly praised the October 7 attack and orchestrated street celebrations, with large banners hung within hours. Some view this as a potential indication that Tehran had prior knowledge of the operation, a claim reported by the*WSJ.
**

Full article:
Iranian General Killed In Israeli Strike Was Architect Of October 7 | Iran International

The title of their article seems to be a stretch, but the article itself does lend credence to the idea that Iran was in fact part of the planning. I suspect the details were left up to Hamas, which would make it easy for Iran to claim that they had no prior knowledge of said details.


I've taken a look at the Wall Street Journal article linked to above as well. It's behind a paywall, so I decided to get a subscription for this month at least to see what they had to say. Here's an excerpt:
**

Iran Helped Plot Attack on Israel Over Several Weeks

The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps gave the final go-ahead last Monday in Beirut

By Summer Said, Benoit Faucon and Stephen Kalin
Updated Oct. 8, 2023 7:32 pm ET

DUBAI—Iranian security officials helped plan*Hamas’s Saturday surprise attack on Israel*and gave the green light for the assault at a meeting in Beirut last Monday, according to senior members of Hamas and Hezbollah, another Iran-backed militant group.

Officers of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps had worked with Hamas since August to devise the*air, land and sea incursions—the most significant*breach of Israel’s borders*since the 1973 Yom Kippur War—those people said.

Details of the operation were refined during several meetings in Beirut attended by IRGC officers and representatives of four*Iran-backed militant groups, including Hamas, which holds power in Gaza, and Hezbollah, a Shiite militant group and political faction in Lebanon, they said.

U.S. officials say they haven’t seen evidence of Tehran’s involvement. In an interview with CNN that aired Sunday, Secretary of State*Antony Blinken*said: “We have not yet seen evidence that Iran directed or was behind this particular attack, but there is certainly a long relationship.”*

“We don’t have any information at this time to corroborate this account,” said a U.S. official of the meetings.
A European official and an adviser to the Syrian government, however, gave the same account of Iran’s involvement in the lead-up to the attack as the senior Hamas and Hezbollah members.
**

 

[Scott]

I can agree with you that Wikipedia can at times be biased, but Wikipedia definitely isn't the only source saying that Hamas was the sole planner of the October 7th attack. I've already quoted news outlet publications in previous posts saying the same thing,

Now start doing some real research that isn't on the internet.

As I mentioned in my last post, I've now found some articles that suggest that Iran did play a part. Which means that your assertion that such information couldn't be found on the internet was false.

You can, ofcourse, continue to claim that Al Qassam is not the military wing of Hamas, but I have yet to see a single news article that disputes this claim.

Don't misquote me. I stated that Al Qassam is acting completely independently of Hamas, with Iran paying Al Qassam's salaries.

How can the al Qassam brigades be part of Hamas if they are acting completely independently of same? In any case, I've seen absolutely no evidence this assertion of yours is true.

Why do you think Al Qassam, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad all answer to the Ayatollah?

You've never presented evidence that these groups all answer to the Ayatollah. I suspect that they are all -influenced- by Iran, but there's a big difference between being influenced by Iran and simply doing its bidding. Here's some evidence that Hamas and Iran are not always on the same page:
Iran’s IRGC retracts statement on Oct. 7 attacks after rare public spat with Hamas | ALARABIYA news

Iran doesn't pay Hamas, and Hamas is not informed of Iran's attacks on Israel.

Again, all the sources I've seen have stated that Iran -does- fund Hamas. Can you find one that negates this? I've also seen no evidence that Iran has attacked Israel prior to April 14th. Can you find evidence to Iran has?

You can, ofcourse, continue to claim that Al Qassam is not the military wing of Hamas, but I have yet to see a single news article that disputes this claim.

You wouldn't "see" any of them if you were to actually see them.

I thought you'd just agreed that Al Qassam was, in fact, the military wing of Hamas?

I'm curious, who do you think is in charge of Hamas in the Gaza strip? Wikipedia states that it is none other than Yahya Sinwar (his name appears on the right hand side, after "Leader of the Gaza strip"):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

The leader of Hamas is not Mohammed Deif, the leader of Al Qassam.

Wikipedia doesn't list a "Leader of Hamas" in its article on Hamas- their first entry is Ismael Haniyeh, who is listed as Chairman of the Political Bureau, followed by Saleh Al-Arouri, who was the Deputy Chairman but has now apparently been asassinated. Next is Yahya Sinwar, who as I mentioned previously is listed as Leader in the Gaza Strip, and then Mohammed Deif, who is listed as the Military Commander.

Again, we are in agreement that Iran helped fund Hamas,

Nope. Iran does not fund Hamas.

Again, feel free to try to find an article that states that Iran doesn't fund Hamas. I've already found and referenced some that clearly state that Iran does, in fact, fund Hamas.

I choose sources that I find logical and evidence based.

Nope. You choose sources based on the amount of thinking they will do for you.

Another unsubstantiated assertion. I still find it amusing that I was able to find sources providing evidence that Iran did in fact play a part in the October 7th attack while you were still saying it was impossible to find such evidence on the internet.

If I start finding that there is more evidence for a view I previously disagreed with, I can and have changed my mind.

We can already conclude that this isn't going to happen.

It just did.

Even Wikipedia, the supposed bastion of leftist disinformation according to you, has an article on the Al Qassam brigades.

... which immediately opens by stating that Al Qassam is the military wing of Hamas ...

Indeed.

which you immediately absorbed without question.

I've found that on the whole, Wikipedia is generally accurate. However, upon your disagreement with Wikipedia's claim, I also searched for another source to confirm, found one and referenced it in our discussion as well. It's here in case you missed it:
What is Hamas’s armed wing, the Qassam Brigades? | Al Jazeera

Even Wikipedia, the supposed bastion of leftist disinformation according to you, has an article on the Al Qassam brigades. Your problem is that they state that they're the military wing of Hamas. If you can't find any evidence on the internet that this isn't the case, you have a credibility problem.

You have explained why you have a huge credibility problem.

Where have I allegedly done this?

You make a lot of unsubstantiated claims above, followed by a 25 minute video. Are you suggesting that your claims are substantiated by the video?

Nope.

Thanks for letting me know. Would have been frustrating watching it only to find that the claims you'd made weren't substantiated within it.

 

[IBDaMann]

Furthermore, I've seen plenty of evidence that Hamas can act independently from Iran.

Agreed. It's Al Qassam who obeys the Ayatollah and who attacks Israel. Hamas does not obey the Ayatollah, does not attack Israel and does not get paid $100 million annually by Iran.

I believe the October 7th attack on Israel by Hamas is a good example of that.

... and this is the result of your laziness and unwillingness to learn anything that runs counter to your narrative. Iran's Oct 7th attack didn't involve Hamas at all. Al Qassam attacked Israel at the Ayatollah's behest. Your precious but insane narrative has no rational basis. All you can mention is the thinking that Wikipedia has done for you.

You still have not identified a single attack on Israel over the last 45 years (except for Saddam Hussein's SCUD missile attacks) that was not coordinated, funded and authorized by Iran. Not a single one. Don't worry, I'll keep reminding you.

 

[IBDaMann]

Thanks for letting me know. Would have been frustratingj watching it only to find that the claims you'd made weren't substantiated within it.

You should definitely still watch that video. Consider it an anchor point.

 

[IBDaMann]

If I said "That doesn't prove anything" at some point in the past (I think you're suggesting it was in response to a video of. yours), it's probably because I felt that said video didn't have any solid evidence.

And here you reveal that you don't consider anything as "evidence" if it runs counter to what Wikipedia tells you to believe. I gave you a video of John Bolton explaining the situation. His was about the best explanation you're going to find on the internet ... not perfect ... definitely containing clear biases ... but straightforward and authoritative ... and you reject it outright for no reason other than Wikipedia didn't say what he's saying.

Let's just agree that you cannot be rational on this subject. It simply is not a possibility. Great, now don't you feel like a weight has been lifted off your shoulders?

Look, keep your narrative. I promise, I will no longer try to point you in the right direction. I see how much heartburn it gives you to have to think. If Wikipedia tells you what to believe, you're all over it because you don't have to think any. If I tell you to research in a particular area, you go completely apoplectic and bitch that I'm MAKING you do so much work and FORCING you to think for yourself ... I'm sorry, I apologize. My bad. I won't do it again.

Enjoy your narrative.

 

[IBDaMann]

According to a 2020 U.S. State Department report, Iran provides about $100 million annually to Palestinian militant groups, including Hamas.

The "including Hamas" is erroneous. Al Qassam is Iran's proxy in "Palestine." Hezbollah is Iran's proxy in/out-of Syria. Islamic Jihad is Iran's proxy operating in/around Israel.

 

[IBDaMann]

Iran just struck back at Israel

Hold on. You say that Iran struck back. On Oct 7th, was Iran striking back? What damage did Iran's most recent attack do to Israel? Does Iran need a reason to launch an impotent and harmless attack against Israel?

Then Hamas should tell someone.

What should Hamas tell to whom? Shouldn't Greenpeace also tell someone that they didn't attack Israel either? What about Tupac Amaru? FNSEA (French farming union)?

Why hasn't Hamas proclaimed their innocence?

Al Qassam claimed responsibility for the Oct 7th attack. Nobody else on the planet proclaimed innocence ... not Greenpeace, not Tupac Amaru, not FNSEA, nobody ... Hamas, on the other hand, probably tried to explain that they weren't involved as they were being slaughtered, despite Israel knowing full well that Al Qassam perpetrated the attack.

Why haven't they told the world that they have nothing to do with Al Qassam?

They were already dead. The IDF targeted all the Hamas leaders who never attacked Israel and who never knew anything about the attack until it happened. As such, it probably didn't occur to any Gazan that he might have to make some sort of statement to the press before his body had to be fished out of rubble.

30,000 dead ... who never attacked Israel. 18,000 dead children, who also never attacked Israel, were alive and well at the beginning of October.

Could it be because Al Qassam is the military of Hamas, and Hamas supports them?

Nope. Al Qassam is a terrorist organization that takes its marching orders from the Ayatollah, who pays them ~$100 million annually to do his bidding. Al Qassam does not answer to Hamas.

Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran all use child soldiers.

None of them use child soldiers ... and Hamas is not Al Qassam.

All of the organizations mentioned, and more, all teach children to HATE Jews, just as Israel raises Israeli children to HATE Arabs. However, you assertion that Arabs somehow HATE their own children and send them to war is absurd. Arabs love their children just like everyone else.

Both Hamas and Hezbollah have used child soldiers against Israel.

I realize that you'll regurgitate anything, no matter how absurd. The only Arab children dying are those being killed by the IDF in Gaza, mostly via cowardly, illegal air strikes into civilian population centers.

Al Qassam has no age limits on soldiers. It uses child soldiers.

False. Arabs love their children. Really, they do.

 

[Walt]

None of them use child soldiers .

Talking to you is really a waste of my time.