faith is boolean

ib1yysguy said:
You're not isolating confounding variables. And you didn't suggest using 100 subjects. You suggested using one person and having that individual see if they did better or worse compared to the previous year(s) of their lives. As you presented it, your test was not a valid scientific experiment.
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Apparently you haven't read the entire thread, because I did indicate I would like to see 100 of you Atheistic types, participate in such an experiment. We can easily satisfy any 'statistical' details about the experiment, and it is a valid scientific test.

The more subjects you test, the more you eliminate confounding variables and the greater the chance the variable being manipulated is responsible for any measurable change. This would be shown as a statistical chart and an analysis of likelihood.
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How about speaking in plain English! First you wanted the independent variable, then you wanted to clarify the dependent variables, now you are talking about 'confounding' variables. The confounding variable in this case, would be the inherent level of spirituality already found in the test subjects. Devoutly religious people would make poor subjects because they would already be accustomed to practicing the rituals of the experiment, and would be less likely to experience any benefit from such an experiment. The subjects would have to be 'atheistic' types, as I described already.

Again, I ask you what the heck "meditation" and "reflection" have to do with existence of God. You're implying your hypothesis here, then changing words (dishonestly) so you can't get trapped into saying you were talking about prayer and church.
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No one except for you has mentioned "existence of God" and that is not the hypothesis or purpose of my experiment. While it is true, the ritual I described is familiar to those who practice a religious faith, the test itself, involves no religious attribute or condition. The hypothesis is whether or not practicing of rituals associated with human spirituality results in improved quality of life. Whether God exists is purely a matter of faith, and can not be tested.

Just state explicitly what your hypothesis is. What conclusion would you draw if your experiment yielded statistically significant results?
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I just stated my hypothesis, and I would draw no conclusions, as Science doesn't "prove" things. I would, depending on the results, theorize that practicing human spiritual rituals is either beneficial or not beneficial to the quality of life of the species.

Now, can you please explain to us why this experiment is invalid or non-Scientific in any way? So far, you haven't done that. You have simply tried to muddy the waters with a bunch of science talk, designed and used to confuse and detract. Please stop playing silly word games, trying to draw unfair inferences, and inaccurate analysis from what I have presented. I am not in the mood for your games today.
 
Dixie said:
Apparently you haven't read the entire thread, because I did indicate I would like to see 100 of you Atheistic types, participate in such an experiment. We can easily satisfy any 'statistical' details about the experiment, and it is a valid scientific test.



How about speaking in plain English! First you wanted the independent variable, then you wanted to clarify the dependent variables, now you are talking about 'confounding' variables. The confounding variable in this case, would be the inherent level of spirituality already found in the test subjects. Devoutly religious people would make poor subjects because they would already be accustomed to practicing the rituals of the experiment, and would be less likely to experience any benefit from such an experiment. The subjects would have to be 'atheistic' types, as I described already.



No one except for you has mentioned "existence of God" and that is not the hypothesis or purpose of my experiment. While it is true, the ritual I described is familiar to those who practice a religious faith, the test itself, involves no religious attribute or condition. The hypothesis is whether or not practicing of rituals associated with human spirituality results in improved quality of life. Whether God exists is purely a matter of faith, and can not be tested.



I just stated my hypothesis, and I would draw no conclusions, as Science doesn't "prove" things. I would, depending on the results, theorize that practicing human spiritual rituals is either beneficial or not beneficial to the quality of life of the species.

Now, can you please explain to us why this experiment is invalid or non-Scientific in any way? So far, you haven't done that. You have simply tried to muddy the waters with a bunch of science talk, designed and used to confuse and detract. Please stop playing silly word games, trying to draw unfair inferences, and inaccurate analysis from what I have presented. I am not in the mood for your games today.
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You're so lost, I'm going to ignore everything you said out of frustration but for the last bit where you said you don't draw conclusions because science doesn't "prove" anything. Science draws conclusions from experiments. It's a standard part of the research literature - usually the last part.

Testing 100 or more people as to whether or not meditation improves the quality of life is a valid experiment. But that's not what you described. You were describing the rituals of one individual, which could not be considered an experiment because there was no control variable, and you weren't isolating the confounding variables (which you just demonstrated in your last post that you have no idea what these are). And the implication of such an experiment was clearly toward producing evidence to the existence of God, within the context of the conversation.

"Science talk" never muddies the waters but to the ignorant. Whenever you use eighth-grade science terms and someone shouts at you "try talking English!" you know you need to give up on them.
 
LOL... Okay, I didn't mean what I say I meant, I meant what you say I meant, how stupid of me to think I knew better about what I meant. Please accept my apologies! FUCK YOU!
 
ib1yysguy said:
Apology accepted.
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It was a sarcastic apology, I don't owe you jack shit. I presented a valid and legitimate scientific experiment, you attempted to derail it with nothingness, and failed to do so, having to finally admit I was right all along, and then trying to claim I meant something I didn't say, which you mistakingly thought I meant. I've never seen anyone go to such extremes to keep from admitting they were wrong about something, it's astonishing... especially when you start telling me what I meant by what I said! LOL
 
Dixie said:
If you weren't already closed-minded and bigoted toward religious faith, I could suggest a scientific test to offer observational data, regarding faith in religious/spiritual belief. Begin and end each day with a spiritual ritual of meditation. Give verbal thanks for the food you consume, and spend one hour on Sunday morning, meditating about your week in review. Think about things you did wrong, how you could have been a better human being, and what you did the past week, which you regret or believe to be wrong in hindsight. Conduct this experiment for a year, and document any positive or negative changes in your life. Note any change in health, social relationships, finances, or job success. If, at the end of a year, you have seen no observable benefits to the ritual, you will have the results you desire, in order to determine there is no purpose for religious/spiritual faith. But of course, you aren't going to do this, because your mind is closed to the possibility. You have already drawn a conclusion, which is one of the primary no-no's of Science, as it is intended to continually explore the possibilities and ask questions.
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This says something about testing 100 people where exactly?
 
You're just sitting there lying about what you said. The above quote is the "scientific test" you suggested and it involves one individual. It was invalid. I am right, you are wrong. I accept your apology.
 
ib1yysguy said:
This says something about testing 100 people where exactly?
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Two posts after that, where I say...

The test I suggested is repeatable. You can conduct this test on anyone who doesn't routinely practice the rituals in the experiment. The results are physical, conditions of your life, success and relationships, are physical things we can observe and document. I would love to see at least 100 of you skeptical closed-minded Atheistic types, try this experiment for a year and document the results in a scientific manner, applying the same level of 'faith' in spirituality as you have in physical science. If you conducted this experiment, you may find as Einstein did, that God doesn't play dice. You may actually realize there is more to human spirituality than a 'security blanket' which would have long ago evolved out of the species, if Darwinism is correct. Perhaps you may even come to realize why humanity is so profoundly tied to spiritual beliefs and faith. But... you won't.

I've highlighted the text for your clarity and comprehension, since you are apparently unable to do so on your own. Now, go find us 100 test subjects among your godless heathen buddies, and we can get started right away! In just one year, we will have the results, and you can definitively say that spiritual beliefs and rituals have no effect on mankind's quality of life. If you are unwilling to conduct the science experiment, you simply have no basis to make such a claim.
 
If you weren't already closed-minded and bigoted toward religious faith, I could suggest a scientific test to offer observational data, regarding faith in religious/spiritual belief. Begin and end each day with a spiritual ritual of meditation. Give verbal thanks for the food you consume, and spend one hour on Sunday morning, meditating about your week in review. Think about things you did wrong, how you could have been a better human being, and what you did the past week, which you regret or believe to be wrong in hindsight. Conduct this experiment for a year, and document any positive or negative changes in your life. Note any change in health, social relationships, finances, or job success. If, at the end of a year, you have seen no observable benefits to the ritual, you will have the results you desire, in order to determine there is no purpose for religious/spiritual faith. But of course, you aren't going to do this, because your mind is closed to the possibility. You have already drawn a conclusion, which is one of the primary no-no's of Science, as it is intended to continually explore the possibilities and ask questions.
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One person, and for the purpose of "determining there is no purpose for religious/spiritual faith."

You've been lying about this for hours now. This was, as you said above, about religious faith and your test involved a single individual. Dishonest sob.
 
Dixie said:
Two posts after that, where I say...

The test I suggested is repeatable. You can conduct this test on anyone who doesn't routinely practice the rituals in the experiment. The results are physical, conditions of your life, success and relationships, are physical things we can observe and document. I would love to see at least 100 of you skeptical closed-minded Atheistic types, try this experiment for a year and document the results in a scientific manner, applying the same level of 'faith' in spirituality as you have in physical science. If you conducted this experiment, you may find as Einstein did, that God doesn't play dice. You may actually realize there is more to human spirituality than a 'security blanket' which would have long ago evolved out of the species, if Darwinism is correct. Perhaps you may even come to realize why humanity is so profoundly tied to spiritual beliefs and faith. But... you won't.

I've highlighted the text for your clarity and comprehension, since you are apparently unable to do so on your own. Now, go find us 100 test subjects among your godless heathen buddies, and we can get started right away! In just one year, we will have the results, and you can definitively say that spiritual beliefs and rituals have no effect on mankind's quality of life. If you are unwilling to conduct the science experiment, you simply have no basis to make such a claim.
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Jesus man, in one breath you say "only YOU have mentioned God" as though your test isn't about God, then you post this and the previous comment about this being about God. Are you confused, dishonest, stupid, or all of the above?
 
Dixie said:
If you weren't already closed-minded and bigoted toward religious faith, I could suggest a scientific test to offer observational data, regarding faith in religious/spiritual belief. Begin and end each day with a spiritual ritual of meditation. Give verbal thanks for the food you consume, and spend one hour on Sunday morning, meditating about your week in review. Think about things you did wrong, how you could have been a better human being, and what you did the past week, which you regret or believe to be wrong in hindsight. Conduct this experiment for a year, and document any positive or negative changes in your life. Note any change in health, social relationships, finances, or job success. If, at the end of a year, you have seen no observable benefits to the ritual, you will have the results you desire, in order to determine there is no purpose for religious/spiritual faith. But of course, you aren't going to do this, because your mind is closed to the possibility. You have already drawn a conclusion, which is one of the primary no-no's of Science, as it is intended to continually explore the possibilities and ask questions.
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You don't need religious faith to do this stuff Dix. Religion has only hijacked these principles of leading a good life and applied them to the political empires that have used religion to gain power.

I do all of the above without faith in a bearded giant in the sky who likes to send dissenters to eternal merciless torture.

And what your "experiment" is attempting to prove can be boiled down as well to this: If you lead a good life, you'll have a good life. I don't know how cosmic dice rollers are implicit in this in any way.

You don't need mythology and fairy tales to live a good life.
 
Again, even this experiment is invalid because you're not isolating the confounding variables. You would not get a statistically significant return with 100 individuals.
 
ib1yysguy said:
One person, and for the purpose of "determining there is no purpose for religious/spiritual faith."

You've been lying about this for hours now. This was, as you said above, about religious faith and your test involved a single individual. Dishonest sob.
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Yes, the experiment is done on individuals, as I described. To effectively evaluate the results, we need multiple individuals to study the individual results from, and I did indeed post the criteria of 100 subjects for this. I am not lying, I just posted the text in the thread where I made that statement, it hasn't been edited, it hasn't been changed. You are now accusing me of "lying" without any basis for the charge, and with evidence clearly indicating I didn't lie. Furthermore, you continue to insinuate that I said anything at all about religion or religious faith, or the existence of God. It appears to me, you are the one blatantly lying, and continuing to conjure up lies to support your previous lies. What the fuck is wrong with you? Do you honestly think people won't read the thread and see what you are doing?
 
Beefy said:
You don't need religious faith to do this stuff Dix. Religion has only hijacked these principles of leading a good life and applied them to the political empires that have used religion to gain power.

I do all of the above without faith in a bearded giant in the sky who likes to send dissenters to eternal merciless torture.

And what your "experiment" is attempting to prove can be boiled down as well to this: If you lead a good life, you'll have a good life. I don't know how cosmic dice rollers are implicit in this in any way.

You don't need mythology and fairy tales to live a good life.
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Hey Igmo... how's about READING the thread before you start making assumptions? I have not mentioned RELIGIOUS faith! Nowhere! Not one fucking word about a bearded guy in the sky, or any of the things you apparently "fear" in life! It sounds as if you want to take my reasonable viewpoint, paint it as 'extremist religious rhetoric' then agree with my reasonable point as if you have offered it as a compromise to my extremism! I have never read anything so outrageously dishonest in my life.
 
Dixie said:
People who have religious faith, can observe the miracles of God all around them. Even things Science offers no explanation for, can be explained through the miracles of God. You have faith in results, and define it as what you can see... yet, you can't see gravity, only the results of it. You also can't see the theory of relativity, only it's results. To "believe" anything at all, is to have "faith" as they are synonymous. As I said before, mankind is hopelessly tied to faith, it is part of the human condition. We simply can't function as human beings, without some measure of faith in something.

You claim you 'believe' (i.e.; have faith) in the laws of physics, however, black holes and anti-matter seem to defy the laws of known physics. Inside a black hole, light can not escape, which seems to indicate a contradiction to scientific and physical principles and laws, yet you still have faith in those theories, in spite of this observation.

Now, the beauty of "faith" is, you can have it in spite of your observational data. With faith in Science or physical laws and principles, you can observe contradiction with the 'faith' that science has simply not answered all questions and is not infallible. Just as those with religious faith can say, God knows all, and it's not for us to second guess. So we can see, there is really no fundamental difference in the faith held by people of science and physics, and people of religion.

If you weren't already closed-minded and bigoted toward religious faith, I could suggest a scientific test to offer observational data, regarding faith in religious/spiritual belief. Begin and end each day with a spiritual ritual of meditation. Give verbal thanks for the food you consume, and spend one hour on Sunday morning, meditating about your week in review. Think about things you did wrong, how you could have been a better human being, and what you did the past week, which you regret or believe to be wrong in hindsight. Conduct this experiment for a year, and document any positive or negative changes in your life. Note any change in health, social relationships, finances, or job success. If, at the end of a year, you have seen no observable benefits to the ritual, you will have the results you desire, in order to determine there is no purpose for religious/spiritual faith. But of course, you aren't going to do this, because your mind is closed to the possibility. You have already drawn a conclusion, which is one of the primary no-no's of Science, as it is intended to continually explore the possibilities and ask questions.
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Gee Dix, I wonder where I got the idea that you were talking about "religious faith".

:rolleyes:
 
This is unbelievable.

Dixie said:
Furthermore, you continue to insinuate that I said anything at all about religion or religious faith, or the existence of God.
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You said the purpose of the "experiment" is to:
Dixie said:
in order to determine there is no purpose for religious/spiritual faith.
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You also said
Dixie said:
If you conducted this experiment, you may find as Einstein did, that God doesn't play dice. You may actually realize there is more to human spirituality than a 'security blanket'
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Tell me again how you didn't say anything about religion, faith, or God.
 
ib1yysguy said:
Again, even this experiment is invalid because you're not isolating the confounding variables. You would not get a statistically significant return with 100 individuals.
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Fine, do it with 1000 subjects, or 10,000 subjects, or 100,000 subjects, or 1,000,000 subjects! What the fuck is your point here????? The experiment's validity is not determined by the undetermined number of subjects! I have isolated the confounding variables, I have identified for you, the dependent and independent variables, and I have put up with your asinine bullshit for several hours now, and I am tired of it. I gave you a legitimate scientific test you can conduct to determine if the practice of certain rituals associated with spirituality, have an effect on quality of life in humans. If you want to claim it doesn't, you need to conduct the test as outlined, and then you will have a basis for such conclusion, but until you do that, you simply have no basis to make any conclusions.
 
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