forced sterilization, who supported it?

Return of Dune said:
You are so very wrong about this.
One doesn't grieve over the fetus but over the life never lived.
Click to expand...

Considering some folks believe a fertilized cell is a human being and 50% of fertilized cells spontaneously abort within a few hours or days there must be a hell of a lot of mourners.
 
Return of Dune said:
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/NeumayrNewEugenics.php

When the angel who shares my life was pregnant with our second son, somehow we were sent to a major Boston hospital for "genetic counciling".
We were told that some test or another revealed a "possibility" that our child could be afflicted with Down Syndrome and urged to abort.
We chose to ignore the "councilor" and our son is now a freshman in highschool, an intellegent charming individual who wants to be a
psychologist and likely will.
Click to expand...

(Excerpt from your link) The frequent use of eugenic abortion can also be measured in dwindling populations with certain disabilities. Since the 1960s, the number of Americans with spina bifida has markedly declined. This dropping trend line corresponds to the rise of prenatal screening. Owing to prenatal technology and eugenic abortion, some rare conditions, such as the genetic disorder Tay-Sachs, are even vanishing in America, according to doctors. (End)

Tay-Sachs: Infants with Tay–Sachs disease appear to develop normally for the first six months after birth. Then, as nerve cells become distended with gangliosides, a relentless deterioration of mental and physical abilities occurs. The child becomes blind, deaf, and unable to swallow. Muscles begin to atrophy and paralysis sets in. Death usually occurs before the age of four.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay–Sachs_disease)

Would anyone want their child to go through that? Besides the horrific suffering that the child would go through don't forget what the parents would be enduring having to witness it.

(Excerpt from your link) In an atmosphere of expected eugenics, even queasy, vaguely pro-life parents gravitate towards aborting a disabled child. These parents get pressure from doctors who, without even bothering to ask, automatically provide abortion options to them once the prenatal screening has diagnosed a disability (one parent, in a 1999 study, complained of a doctor showing her a video depicting the rigors of raising an afflicted child as a way of convincing her to choose abortion), and they feel pressure from society at large which having accepted eugenic abortion looks askance at parents with disabled children.(End)

The parent complained about being shown a video? If people going for an abortion have to watch their fetus on a monitor why shouldn't prospective parents have to watch a video of a child suffering? Do they have any idea the amount of suffering the child will go through?

Here's where I see the disconnect. As a society we're taught freedom is the "be all and end all". People advocate fighting for it and even dying for it. "Live Free or Die" as the licence plate says and, supposedly, no folks are more on board with that than the Conservatives/Repubs. Hell, they'll even champion fighting and dying for other people to be free! But when it comes to bringing a child into the world knowing it will never, ever be free they champion that, as well.

Knowing a child will be afflicted with a major genetic abnormality, live out it's life in an institution or, at best, in a controlled housing environment, knowing that person will never have a proper job to support a family meaning that individual will never be married and have children and grandchildren, will never participate in the "free enterprise" system, won't even be able to hop in a car and drive across this great country....in the Conservative/Republican eyes that's good. That's fine. Let's have more of those people who will never, ever experience freedom.

I have to ask, "Why?" Why would an individual who believes freedom is sacrosanct advocate bringing people into the world knowing they will never be free?
 
apple0154 said:
Considering some folks believe a fertilized cell is a human being and 50% of fertilized cells spontaneously abort within a few hours or days there must be a hell of a lot of mourners.
Click to expand...

You honestly can't differentiate between a spontaneous act of nature, of which likely no one is aware, and a purposeful act by the creators of said life?

Your argument is weak.

It would be best if you simply admitted that it never occured to you that the father of an aborted fetus could deeply grieve said act for decades or longer.

If my college sweetheart had not had an abortion, I would have a 30 year old child.
The guilt and loss I feel over this is only assuaged by the fact that there was NO WAY I could stop her.

In spite of the above, I still support a woman's right to manage her own body,
but your presumptions should at least be accurate.
 
apple0154 said:
(Excerpt from your link) The frequent use of eugenic abortion can also be measured in dwindling populations with certain disabilities. Since the 1960s, the number of Americans with spina bifida has markedly declined. This dropping trend line corresponds to the rise of prenatal screening. Owing to prenatal technology and eugenic abortion, some rare conditions, such as the genetic disorder Tay-Sachs, are even vanishing in America, according to doctors. (End)

Tay-Sachs: Infants with Tay–Sachs disease appear to develop normally for the first six months after birth. Then, as nerve cells become distended with gangliosides, a relentless deterioration of mental and physical abilities occurs. The child becomes blind, deaf, and unable to swallow. Muscles begin to atrophy and paralysis sets in. Death usually occurs before the age of four.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay–Sachs_disease)

Would anyone want their child to go through that? Besides the horrific suffering that the child would go through don't forget what the parents would be enduring having to witness it.

(Excerpt from your link) In an atmosphere of expected eugenics, even queasy, vaguely pro-life parents gravitate towards aborting a disabled child. These parents get pressure from doctors who, without even bothering to ask, automatically provide abortion options to them once the prenatal screening has diagnosed a disability (one parent, in a 1999 study, complained of a doctor showing her a video depicting the rigors of raising an afflicted child as a way of convincing her to choose abortion), and they feel pressure from society at large which having accepted eugenic abortion looks askance at parents with disabled children.(End)

The parent complained about being shown a video? If people going for an abortion have to watch their fetus on a monitor why shouldn't prospective parents have to watch a video of a child suffering? Do they have any idea the amount of suffering the child will go through?

Here's where I see the disconnect. As a society we're taught freedom is the "be all and end all". People advocate fighting for it and even dying for it. "Live Free or Die" as the licence plate says and, supposedly, no folks are more on board with that than the Conservatives/Repubs. Hell, they'll even champion fighting and dying for other people to be free! But when it comes to bringing a child into the world knowing it will never, ever be free they champion that, as well.

Knowing a child will be afflicted with a major genetic abnormality, live out it's life in an institution or, at best, in a controlled housing environment, knowing that person will never have a proper job to support a family meaning that individual will never be married and have children and grandchildren, will never participate in the "free enterprise" system, won't even be able to hop in a car and drive across this great country....in the Conservative/Republican eyes that's good. That's fine. Let's have more of those people who will never, ever experience freedom.

I have to ask, "Why?" Why would an individual who believes freedom is sacrosanct advocate bringing people into the world knowing they will never be free?
Click to expand...

Did you fucking read the words I wrote, or just skip to the link I presented?
My son, whom the "councilors" advised be killed is a wonderfull witty and charming individual, who someday will help people like you.
 
Return of Dune said:
You honestly can't differentiate between a spontaneous act of nature, of which likely no one is aware, and a purposeful act by the creators of said life?

Your argument is weak.

It would be best if you simply admitted that it never occured to you that the father of an aborted fetus could deeply grieve said act for decades or longer.

If my college sweetheart had not had an abortion, I would have a 30 year old child.
The guilt and loss I feel over this is only assuaged by the fact that there was NO WAY I could stop her.

In spite of the above, I still support a woman's right to manage her own body,
but your presumptions should at least be accurate.
Click to expand...

So the guilt and loss you feel has followed you around your entire life since college? That makes me sad. I'm so sorry. How old are you?
 
Alias said:
185 lbs. How old were you when your girlfriend had her abortion?
Click to expand...

Hmm, what highly personel, yet still ignorant question should I ask you next?
Are there any which would be stiking enough for you to get a clue?
Nah, I doubt it.

Perhaps you could guess my age within a year or two, and then proceed trying to make your valueless point from there?
 
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Return of Dune said:
Hmm, what highly personel, yet still ignorant question should I ask you next?
Are there any which would be stiking enough for you to get a clue?
Nah, I doubt it.

Perhaps you could guess my age within a year or two, and then proceed trying to make your valueless point from their?
Click to expand...

I don't know why you're so hostile to me. I'm concerned about you and the guilt and grief you've carried around for 30 years. I would imagine it has affected your life greatly. That makes me sad. I feel sorry for you, having the burden of all this guilt and grief that is obviously still holding you captive as evidenced by your aberrant behavior. Have you ever contemplated seeking professional help?
 
Alias said:
I don't know why you're so hostile to me. I'm concerned about you and the guilt and grief you've carried around for 30 years. I would imagine it has affected your life greatly. That makes me sad. I feel sorry for you, having the burden of all this guilt and grief that is obviously still holding you captive as evidenced by your aberrant behavior. Have you ever contemplated seeking professional help?
Click to expand...

Your concern for my wellbeing is noted.
 
The thread topic is eugenics. I think that my contributions have been on topic.
Your questions to me are not on topic and personal in nature, so do not expect me to answer.
 
Return of Dune said:
The thread topic is eugenics. I think that my contributions have been on topic.
Your questions to me are not on topic and personal in nature, so do not expect me to answer.
Click to expand...

Oh, I don't expect an answer. We're just concerned about your well being. Lots of people get suicidal over the Holidays because of guilt and grief. Since you've admitted to carrying out guilt and grief, we're all naturally concerned about you blowing your bains out.

Of course, if you really honestly wanted to get back at me, you could always leave a note saying that "Alias" on the JPP forum drove you to it by internet bullying. That would really cook my goose. Of course, you would have to actually blow your brains out. Do you have the guts? That's the question. I don't think you do.
 
Return of Dune said:
You honestly can't differentiate between a spontaneous act of nature, of which likely no one is aware, and a purposeful act by the creators of said life?

Your argument is weak.

It would be best if you simply admitted that it never occured to you that the father of an aborted fetus could deeply grieve said act for decades or longer.

If my college sweetheart had not had an abortion, I would have a 30 year old child.
The guilt and loss I feel over this is only assuaged by the fact that there was NO WAY I could stop her.

In spite of the above, I still support a woman's right to manage her own body,
but your presumptions should at least be accurate.
Click to expand...

If you truly mourned then you have my condolences.
 
Return of Dune said:
Did you fucking read the words I wrote, or just skip to the link I presented?
My son, whom the "councilors" advised be killed is a wonderfull witty and charming individual, who someday will help people like you.
Click to expand...

So you're the exception to the rule. There is always an exception. Fortunately, the world does not run on exceptions.

As for referencing the link YOU submitted, of course I did. I expected to find something to bolster your point of view and end up viewing an article questioning the termination of pregnancy when it's discovered the fetus may have Tay-Sachs. Who would gamble on the off-chance science was wrong and insist on birthing a child with the following results. "The child becomes blind, deaf, and unable to swallow. Muscles begin to atrophy and paralysis sets in. Death usually occurs before the age of four."

Well, I'll tell you. There are a lot of either misguided or perverted folks out there. Have you ever visited a hospital that specializes in genetically damaged children? Maybe take a first hand look at all the suffering due to people who refused a pre-natal test or thought they'd be the exception and have a "witty and charming" child. Unless you've seen the suffering first hand, actually witnessed the pain and agony those little babies go through, heard their cries and know there's nothing one can to do to help them, you'll never understand.
 
apple0154 said:
So you're the exception to the rule. There is always an exception. Fortunately, the world does not run on exceptions.

As for referencing the link YOU submitted, of course I did. I expected to find something to bolster your point of view and end up viewing an article questioning the termination of pregnancy when it's discovered the fetus may have Tay-Sachs. Who would gamble on the off-chance science was wrong and insist on birthing a child with the following results. "The child becomes blind, deaf, and unable to swallow. Muscles begin to atrophy and paralysis sets in. Death usually occurs before the age of four."

Well, I'll tell you. There are a lot of either misguided or perverted folks out there. Have you ever visited a hospital that specializes in genetically damaged children? Maybe take a first hand look at all the suffering due to people who refused a pre-natal test or thought they'd be the exception and have a "witty and charming" child. Unless you've seen the suffering first hand, actually witnessed the pain and agony those little babies go through, heard their cries and know there's nothing one can to do to help them, you'll never understand.
Click to expand...

"Who would gamble on the off-chance science was wrong and insist on birthing a child with the following results. "The child becomes blind, deaf, and unable to swallow."???

I still can't figure out why your mama saw fit to let you see the light of day.....you may never be hungry or deaf or blind...but you'll always be fuckin' stupid.....
 
apple0154 said:
So you're the exception to the rule. There is always an exception. Fortunately, the world does not run on exceptions.

As for referencing the link YOU submitted, of course I did. I expected to find something to bolster your point of view and end up viewing an article questioning the termination of pregnancy when it's discovered the fetus may have Tay-Sachs. Who would gamble on the off-chance science was wrong and insist on birthing a child with the following results. "The child becomes blind, deaf, and unable to swallow. Muscles begin to atrophy and paralysis sets in. Death usually occurs before the age of four."

Well, I'll tell you. There are a lot of either misguided or perverted folks out there. Have you ever visited a hospital that specializes in genetically damaged children? Maybe take a first hand look at all the suffering due to people who refused a pre-natal test or thought they'd be the exception and have a "witty and charming" child. Unless you've seen the suffering first hand, actually witnessed the pain and agony those little babies go through, heard their cries and know there's nothing one can to do to help them, you'll never understand.
Click to expand...

So ending their suffering before they are born in kinda like a humanitarian act. Would that be accurate or not?
 
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