Free Markets: Capitalism vs Socialism

Free market capitalism, or free market socialism?

  • Free market socialism

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Yes and no? Market socialists tend to extend theft to it's Marxian definition. So, simply, as long as there's any monetary extraction from labor, theft is occurring. And, if theft is illegal, and extraction is theft, extraction is illegal.

Yes & no what? Are you saying that taxing capital gains and income would be illegal in a socialist/capitalist market system?

This whole idea of socialism implying central planning is pretty inane - and at this point just a straw man used by capitalists to make socialism easier to refute.

Socialism:
a political theory or system in which the means of production and distribution are controlled by the people and operated according to equity and fairness rather than market principles (English Encarta Dictionary)

So who are the leadership of the means of production and distribution, how are they selected and what is their authority and responsibilities and compensation in a socialist market system?

Even though the more scientific/practical schools tend to gravitate towards the state, this can't be applied to socialism universally. In fact, some of the most notable socialists, including Kautsky and Kropotkin condemned the state - either as a tool of the bourgeoisie, or oppressive in it's own right. So socialism doesn't require central planning, or even a state. But it implicitly wards against those desiring private property - that term used with the Marxian definition in mind.

So then are you saying that the Socialist Market System is actually an “Anarchist” System?

Where has a Socialist Market System ever been tried? What was the result, so we can compare?

Or, are you saying that the Socialist Market System is actually a system ruled and conducted by “Majority Rule” AKA “Pure Democracy,” rather than a “Constitutional Rule Of Law?”
 
So socialism doesn't require central planning, or even a state. But it implicitly wards against those desiring private property - that term used with the Marxian definition in mind.

So then in a Socialist Market economy, it’s “illegal” to own your house, car, property, stocks and bonds and other material products and devises? Everything becomes communal public property? Who enforces this socialist rule of law a squad of vigilantes chosen by a majority rule election?
 
So then in a Socialist Market economy, it’s “illegal” to own your house, car, property, stocks and bonds and other material products and devises? Everything becomes communal public property? Who enforces this socialist rule of law a squad of vigilantes chosen by a majority rule election?

No... I just said that I was using the Marxian definition of that term.
 
No... I just said that I was using the Marxian definition of that term.

I wasn’t asking about Marx, I was asking for your superior knowledge of what YOU have determined Free Market Socialist Capitalism actually is.
 
Yes & no what? Are you saying that taxing capital gains and income would be illegal in a socialist/capitalist market system?



Socialism:
a political theory or system in which the means of production and distribution are controlled by the people and operated according to equity and fairness rather than market principles (English Encarta Dictionary)

So who are the leadership of the means of production and distribution, how are they selected and what is their authority and responsibilities and compensation in a socialist market system?



So then are you saying that the Socialist Market System is actually an “Anarchist” System?

Where has a Socialist Market System ever been tried? What was the result, so we can compare?

Or, are you saying that the Socialist Market System is actually a system ruled and conducted by “Majority Rule” AKA “Pure Democracy,” rather than a “Constitutional Rule Of Law?”

I've given you my definition: An economic system, absent of central planning, where worker owned cooperatives trade according to market forces. This isn't anarchism - I've argued for anarchism, Free market socialism is not that.
 
I wasn’t asking about Marx, I was asking for your superior knowledge of what YOU have determined Free Market Socialist Capitalism actually is.

What the hell? When I use the Marxian definition of a term, it means I'm borrowing a term for my definition of Free Market Socialism. So, private property means productive property - like factories, farms, etc.

And what in the world is free market socialist capitalism?
 
I've given you my definition: An economic system, absent of central planning, where worker owned cooperatives trade according to market forces. This isn't anarchism - I've argued for anarchism, Free market socialism is not that.

Absent central planning, there is no way to ensure fairness and equity in the trading of cooperatives according to market forces. Certain cooperatives gain advantage over others because of market forces, and without some central planning to monitor and regulate this, some cooperatives will become more powerful than others. As some cooperatives gain more power, others lose power, become less important. People are naturally going to want to work for the more powerful cooperative because it means a better way of life, but everyone can't work in the most powerful cooperatives, some people must be forced to work in the less powerful cooperatives and settle for a less abundant lifestyle. Again, you'll need 'central planning' to equally distribute the labor, so that cooperatives with less market appeal will be able to compete with others.

You are living in the fantasy world created in a book by a Socialist Utopian. Try to process that, because that is the root of your problem here. You've read something that probably made perfect sense, and seemed like a really great way to run things, because it is being presented to you by people who are selling you on their theories. What none of their Socialist theories take into account, is the human spirit, the human element. They don't account for people being ambitious, motivation, lack of motivation, greed and corruption. Every system of Socialism that has ever been attempted, has failed due to the human element. It's because we don't live in a perfect world with perfect people, we live in an unfair world with a variety of different kinds of people. Power is not something you can equally distribute and maintain fairness in the distribution of it. Some people, whether you have free market capitalism or what you are calling free market socialism, will still have more power than others. More power means more money, more control over outcome, a better way of life in general. Whenever this happens, regardless of the system, the ones who have the most power will be better off than everyone else.

In a free market capitalist system, every man/woman has the opportunity to better their own lives, through competition in the free market. If you don't like making $3 an hour in the widget-making cooperative, you can strive to be better, to do something else, to take your talent and ambitions to another level, to achieve financial success. Capitalist ventures will gain power over others, but with a free market capitalist system, others are free to 'build a better mousetrap' and overcome the disparity.

60 years ago, the merchandising juggernaut in the United States was a company named Sears and Roebuck. They literally owned the market on consumer products and merchandise, and no one else even came close. In the 60s and early 70s, a company named K-Mart emerged, even in the smothering vacuum of Sears, they were able to offer consumers an alternative, and the consumers responded, making K-Mart the largest merchandiser. They toppled Sears and Roebuck as Kings of Retail Merchandising, where Sears had held the crown for over 100 years. In the late 70s and early 80s, another company came along, by the name of Walmart. They toppled Sears and K-mart and became the new Kings. In the 90s, a company named Target emerged... in 2013, it is Dollar General. This is all happening in a free market capitalist environment, where companies compete for the consumer dollar. Better ideas emerge and consumers respond, capitalists prosper and new companies emerge to take the place of old ones. Our quality of life is improved in this process, even while the capitalists make record profits and become more wealthy.
 
Absent central planning, there is no way to ensure fairness and equity in the trading of cooperatives according to market forces. Certain cooperatives gain advantage over others because of market forces, and without some central planning to monitor and regulate this, some cooperatives will become more powerful than others. As some cooperatives gain more power, others lose power, become less important. People are naturally going to want to work for the more powerful cooperative because it means a better way of life, but everyone can't work in the most powerful cooperatives, some people must be forced to work in the less powerful cooperatives and settle for a less abundant lifestyle. Again, you'll need 'central planning' to equally distribute the labor, so that cooperatives with less market appeal will be able to compete with others.

You are living in the fantasy world created in a book by a Socialist Utopian. Try to process that, because that is the root of your problem here. You've read something that probably made perfect sense, and seemed like a really great way to run things, because it is being presented to you by people who are selling you on their theories. What none of their Socialist theories take into account, is the human spirit, the human element. They don't account for people being ambitious, motivation, lack of motivation, greed and corruption. Every system of Socialism that has ever been attempted, has failed due to the human element. It's because we don't live in a perfect world with perfect people, we live in an unfair world with a variety of different kinds of people. Power is not something you can equally distribute and maintain fairness in the distribution of it. Some people, whether you have free market capitalism or what you are calling free market socialism, will still have more power than others. More power means more money, more control over outcome, a better way of life in general. Whenever this happens, regardless of the system, the ones who have the most power will be better off than everyone else.

In a free market capitalist system, every man/woman has the opportunity to better their own lives, through competition in the free market. If you don't like making $3 an hour in the widget-making cooperative, you can strive to be better, to do something else, to take your talent and ambitions to another level, to achieve financial success. Capitalist ventures will gain power over others, but with a free market capitalist system, others are free to 'build a better mousetrap' and overcome the disparity.

60 years ago, the merchandising juggernaut in the United States was a company named Sears and Roebuck. They literally owned the market on consumer products and merchandise, and no one else even came close. In the 60s and early 70s, a company named K-Mart emerged, even in the smothering vacuum of Sears, they were able to offer consumers an alternative, and the consumers responded, making K-Mart the largest merchandiser. They toppled Sears and Roebuck as Kings of Retail Merchandising, where Sears had held the crown for over 100 years. In the late 70s and early 80s, another company came along, by the name of Walmart. They toppled Sears and K-mart and became the new Kings. In the 90s, a company named Target emerged... in 2013, it is Dollar General. This is all happening in a free market capitalist environment, where companies compete for the consumer dollar. Better ideas emerge and consumers respond, capitalists prosper and new companies emerge to take the place of old ones. Our quality of life is improved in this process, even while the capitalists make record profits and become more wealthy.

Another babbling boring diatribe from the Talaban neo-con Village Idiot.

“BORING!!!!!!!!!

You use sooooooooooooooooo many words to say nothing Goober!
 
Another babbling boring diatribe from the Talaban neo-con Village Idiot.

“BORING!!!!!!!!!

You use sooooooooooooooooo many words to say nothing Goober!

So now you're going to resort to Trolldom?
Wow, totally defeating you in the arena of thought was easier than I anticipated, whatever will I do with all the free time?
 
So now you're going to resort to Trolldom?
Wow, totally defeating you in the arena of thought was easier than I anticipated, whatever will I do with all the free time?

My “feet” are still nicely attached Goober! You couldn’t defeat me at anything especially a debate. Your feeble attempts to bore people to death are humorous and pathetic at best and as boring as tree bark.
 
I've given you my definition: An economic system, absent of central planning, where worker owned cooperatives trade according to market forces. This isn't anarchism - I've argued for anarchism, Free market socialism is not that.

But “Market Forces” are naturally capitalistic and controlled by competition and the human nature of a desire for private property and individual profits. How does your socialist system plan to compete with human nature? Hasn’t that been tried before by the Soviets, the Chinese, North Koreans and Cubans? How did it and is it working out for them? The Soviets and Chinese have abandoned it and the North Koreans and Cubans are economically non-prosperous.

What the hell? When I use the Marxian definition of a term, it means I'm borrowing a term for my definition of Free Market Socialism. So, private property means productive property - like factories, farms, etc.

But when the factories and farms etc. are owned by a socialist collective aren’t they then “public” property? Which are they, “private” or “public” property? Who gets to be their leadership and how much are they compensated for that leadership? How is leadership determined/selected?

And what in the world is free market socialist capitalism?

That would be similar to the Chinese system they have today except it’s hardly “FREE.” However I will also say that there is no truly FREE market place anywhere in the world including America.
 
My “feet” are still nicely attached Goober! You couldn’t defeat me at anything especially a debate. Your feeble attempts to bore people to death are humorous and pathetic at best and as boring as tree bark.

Actually, you are the one who can't find the imagination to do anything more than repeat yourself. According to you, I am a "goober" who is "boring as tree bark" and all you can do is repeat these attributes and ad homs, you lack the imagination to come up with something new and fresh. Meanwhile, my responses to you are creative and original, and they find their mark so well, they don't need repeating. Yes, your feet ARE still attached, it's just amazing how you can fit them both in your mouth at the same time!
 
Actually, you are the one who can't find the imagination to do anything more than repeat yourself. According to you, I am a "goober" who is "boring as tree bark" and all you can do is repeat these attributes and ad homs, you lack the imagination to come up with something new and fresh. Meanwhile, my responses to you are creative and original, and they find their mark so well, they don't need repeating. Yes, your feet ARE still attached, it's just amazing how you can fit them both in your mouth at the same time!

Maybe you should try lightening up on your REPETITION relative to your self-proclaimed genius Goober. You’re about as sharp as a bowling ball!!!!
 
Good, I hope the takers all eat each other up!

I think you're using that term wrong. The rich privatized (stole) farmland. The rich extract (steal) value/money from employees. The rich use money to swing (steal) elections, and voter ID laws to eliminate (steal) the voting rights of their opponents.
 
Originally Posted by Sea Bird
I've given you my definition: An economic system, absent of central planning, where worker owned cooperatives trade according to market forces. This isn't anarchism - I've argued for anarchism, Free market socialism is not that.


But “Market Forces” are naturally capitalistic and controlled by competition and the human nature of a desire for private property and individual profits. How does your socialist system plan to compete with human nature? Hasn’t that been tried before by the Soviets, the Chinese, North Koreans and Cubans? How did it and is it working out for them? The Soviets and Chinese have abandoned it and the North Koreans and Cubans are economically non-prosperous.

Originally Posted by Sea Bird
What the hell? When I use the Marxian definition of a term, it means I'm borrowing a term for my definition of Free Market Socialism. So, private property means productive property - like factories, farms, etc.


But when the factories and farms etc. are owned by a socialist collective aren’t they then “public” property? Which are they, “private” or “public” property? Who gets to be their leadership and how much are they compensated for that leadership? How is leadership determined/selected?

And what in the world is free market socialist capitalism?


That would be similar to the Chinese system they have today except it’s hardly “FREE.” However I will also say that there is no truly FREE market place anywhere in the world including America.
 
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