Good Luck and abortion

[KingRaw!]

I'm worse than Hitler, the KKK, and hell Osama Bin Laden. I'm no better than the terrorists that blew up the trade towers on 9-11. Ok let's assume that moronic claim is true. What are you doing about it? Are you going to law school to eventually become a supreme judge or a senator or the president so you can overrule Roe V Wade? Are you bombing abortion clinics to declare war on us nazis? Are you doing anything at all to stop the evil KKK party that is murdering billions of innocent babies?

 

[blackascoal]

I'm worse than Hitler, the KKK, and hell Osama Bin Laden. I'm no better than the terrorists that blew up the trade towers on 9-11. Ok let's assume that moronic claim is true. What are you doing about it? Are you going to law school to eventually become a supreme judge or a senator or the president so you can overrule Roe V Wade? Are you bombing abortion clinics to declare war on us nazis? Are you doing anything at all to stop the evil KKK party that is murdering billions of innocent babies?

Of course, once born, pro-lifers don't give a damn about life .. usually the ones that support the death penalty, no aid to children, war, and "lock-em up" thinking.

 

[Good Luck]

I'm worse than Hitler, the KKK, and hell Osama Bin Laden. I'm no better than the terrorists that blew up the trade towers on 9-11. Ok let's assume that moronic claim is true. What are you doing about it? Are you going to law school to eventually become a supreme judge or a senator or the president so you can overrule Roe V Wade? Are you bombing abortion clinics to declare war on us nazis? Are you doing anything at all to stop the evil KKK party that is murdering billions of innocent babies?

The fact is unborn human children are living humans. You acknowledge that the unborn are scientifically living humans.

The fact is you admitted you are using opinion to deny human rights to the unborn. You stated, in your own words, that IN YOUR OPINION, they are not "human enough" to be granted human rights.

Another fact is that using opinion to dehumanize groups of humans has been used through out history as justification for subjugating the targeted group of humans.

Enslavement of Blacks in America prior to the Civil War is one example of when a group of humans were dehumanized through opinion to justify their enslavement. That is a historical fact.

Racism against blacks, including Jim Crow laws and the "equal but separate" SCOTUS decision are other examples when the opinion "they aren't human enough" was used as justification to deny and/or limit human rights to blacks in this country. That is a historical fact.

Hitler's "Final Solution" for the Jewish population of Europe is another example when a group of humans were deliberately dehumanized through manipulation of popular opinion. Again, it is historical fact that the use of opinion to dehumanize the Jewish population was the method used to justify subjugation of the Jews to enslave them and slaughter them.

And one more fact is that every time in history, to include racism in the U.S., the anti-semetism of Nazi Germany, and every single other instance when opinion has been used to lable a group of humans "not human enough for human rights", society has labeled those events as unjust.

Sorry if you cannot handle those basic facts.

 

[KingRaw!]

And what are you doing to stop us nazis?

 

[Good Luck]

And what are you doing to stop us nazis?

I am supporting every piece of legislation it is in my power to support that aims to protect the lives of unborn children. What do you plan to do when the pro-life movement is successful?

 

[Onceler]

"What do you plan to do when the pro-life movement is successful?"

The pro-life movement will not end up outlawing abortion, though I think Roe will be overturned. What we'll probably see is some states with outright bans, but most states allowing abortion on some level, and some allowing it as it currently is allowed.

I wish pro-life maniacs would concentrate less on the law & on bans, and more on promoting birth control and sex education efforts, which have been effective in making abortion unnecessary. I have always thought one of the great ironies is that some on the pro-life side are also anti birth-control. I read an article about a pharmacist in the south who wouldn't sell it because he considered sperm & eggs on their own worth protecting. That's insanity.

Ultimately, I don't care what you think a fetus is; you can't tell someone what they can or can't do with their body. You simply cannot. Take the case of rape alone. How in the world can you tell a woman who has been raped that she must give birth to that child? It's unconscionable, and it is here where I think most pro-lifers have completely lost their moral compass. And don't even try to say "well, we can include a clause for rape in our ban," because rape is almost impossibly hard to convict in many cases.

It's wrong; you just don't have a right to tell a woman what to do with her body, no matter when you think life begins.

 

[KingRaw!]

That's it? You support a few potential bills even though billions and billions are innocent children are being murdered? You said we are all worse than Hitler and all you're doing is standing by, waiting for some bill to pass. What about all the babies that are being killed as we speak?!


And if abortion is illegal again then millions and millions of us will protest and take down the economy by doing things. We will raise hell until the right to choose is restored. I haven't thought about it yet.

 

[Epicurus]

I understand their passion.

They have a moral calling to stop what they see as a systematic evil.

But I disagree with their assessment of the issue, as well as their assessment of its importance in the overall scheme of things.

There are much more pressing issues.

 

[Epicurus]

That's it? You support a few potential bills even though billions and billions are innocent children are being murdered? You said we are all worse than Hitler and all you're doing is standing by, waiting for some bill to pass. What about all the babies that are being killed as we speak?!


And if abortion is illegal again then millions and millions of us will protest and take down the economy by doing things. We will raise hell until the right to choose is restored. I haven't thought about it yet.

Be careful riling them up.

Some of them bomb buildings too.

You really can't question their commitment.

 

[KingRaw!]

Be careful riling them up.

Some of them bomb buildings too.

You really can't question their commitment.


Yeah, some pro-choicers are crazy too. Blowing up buildings is wrong no matter what wing they basically belong too. I really haven't thought of a plan yet.

 

[Epicurus]

Be careful riling them up.

Some of them bomb buildings too.

You really can't question their commitment.


Yeah, some pro-choicers are crazy too. Blowing up buildings is wrong no matter what wing they basically belong too. I really haven't thought of a plan yet.

You just seemed to advocate that a few seconds ago with your belittling his commitment to a peaceful political resolution.

I don't really understand why you have such a hardon for the abortion debate. It is one of the few issues where both sides have very valid arguments, and it is morally near and dear to a lot of people.

You are not going to change anyone's position on it. The people who believe it to be a moral wrong have very legitimate reasons for holding that belief. Just like the people who believe it to be a right have sound legal arguments to support their side.

Your continued trolling on the issue is reflective of your failure to comprehend the deeper moral implications of their beliefs.

I believe that I am on your side of the issue, but it disappointing to see such thoughtless arguments.

 

[KingRaw!]

You just seemed to advocate that a few seconds ago with your belittling his commitment to a peaceful political resolution.

I don't really understand why you have such a hardon for the abortion debate. It is one of the few issues where both sides have very valid arguments, and it is morally near and dear to a lot of people.

You are not going to change anyone's position on it. The people who believe it to be a moral wrong have very legitimate reasons for holding that belief. Just like the people who believe it to be a right have sound legal arguments to support their side.

Your continued trolling on the issue is reflective of your failure to comprehend the deeper moral implications of their beliefs.

I believe that I am on your side of the issue, but it disappointing to see such thoughtless arguments.

Well, this guy just pissed me off. He started it by comaring all pro-choicers to the KKK. Just like a pro-lifer would be pissed at me(with good reason) if I said they are all bible thumping bigots who think women are property.

 

[blackascoal]

The fact is unborn human children are living humans. You acknowledge that the unborn are scientifically living humans.

The fact is you admitted you are using opinion to deny human rights to the unborn. You stated, in your own words, that IN YOUR OPINION, they are not "human enough" to be granted human rights.

Another fact is that using opinion to dehumanize groups of humans has been used through out history as justification for subjugating the targeted group of humans.

Enslavement of Blacks in America prior to the Civil War is one example of when a group of humans were dehumanized through opinion to justify their enslavement. That is a historical fact.

Racism against blacks, including Jim Crow laws and the "equal but separate" SCOTUS decision are other examples when the opinion "they aren't human enough" was used as justification to deny and/or limit human rights to blacks in this country. That is a historical fact.

Hitler's "Final Solution" for the Jewish population of Europe is another example when a group of humans were deliberately dehumanized through manipulation of popular opinion. Again, it is historical fact that the use of opinion to dehumanize the Jewish population was the method used to justify subjugation of the Jews to enslave them and slaughter them.

And one more fact is that every time in history, to include racism in the U.S., the anti-semetism of Nazi Germany, and every single other instance when opinion has been used to lable a group of humans "not human enough for human rights", society has labeled those events as unjust.

Sorry if you cannot handle those basic facts.

In my opinion, equating abortion to oppression, discrimination, and Hitler is quite the stretch .. and I doubt that resonates with people who seriously address the issue.

Abortion doesn't necessarily occur because the mother doesn't think the fetus is human enough, but because they believe they cannot provide for the child when born.

Is an embryo a human? What memory, consciousness, or will does a embryo have?

Is a sperm cell a human?

Why is unborn life more important than born life? Is there a difference between born and unborn life?

Do you support war and the death penalty? Innocent life is killed in both instances .. supposedly based on the judgement of what's in the best interests of society. Aren't life and death decisions made every day? .. that is if you believe abortion is death .. I do not.

Do you believe that society owes the mother assistance in raising an unwanted child?

Should China allow its citizens to have as many children as they want? .. knowing it is a society of limited resources and an exploding population?

 

[KingRaw!]

Yay, someone besides me arguing against Good Luck from a somewhat similar position!

 

[blackascoal]

You just seemed to advocate that a few seconds ago with your belittling his commitment to a peaceful political resolution.

I don't really understand why you have such a hardon for the abortion debate. It is one of the few issues where both sides have very valid arguments, and it is morally near and dear to a lot of people.

You are not going to change anyone's position on it. The people who believe it to be a moral wrong have very legitimate reasons for holding that belief. Just like the people who believe it to be a right have sound legal arguments to support their side.

Your continued trolling on the issue is reflective of your failure to comprehend the deeper moral implications of their beliefs.

I believe that I am on your side of the issue, but it disappointing to see such thoughtless arguments.

Certainly comparing abortion to Hitler and the KKK cannot be considered serious argument. I get King's point.

Frankly, I don't believe anyone's opinion is going to be changed no matter how palatable the argument .. it's often boils down to a religious argument.

My opinion is if you don't like abortion, then don't have one .. but trying to dictate to women what to do with their bodies is, and shall always be, an excersise in failure. There will always be access to abortion, whether we like it, agree with it, legislate it or not.

 

[Epicurus]

1.)Certainly comparing abortion to Hitler and the KKK cannot be considered serious argument. I get King's point.

2.)Frankly, I don't believe anyone's opinion is going to be changed no matter how palatable the argument .. it's often boils down to a religious argument.

3.)My opinion is if you don't like abortion, then don't have one .. but trying to dictate to women what to do with their bodies is, and shall always be, an excersise in failure. There will always be access to abortion, whether we like it, agree with it, legislate it or not.

1.) I wholeheartedly agree with that.

2.) That was what I said as well.

3.) That is my personal opinion as well, but I was trying to help Raw understand where pro-life advocates are coming from. You cannot deny that they have a moral calling to oppose what they see as a systematic injustice. Not fighting to end it would be comparable to a liberal believing that Darfur is a genocide, but doing nothing to stop it.

 

[Good Luck]

"What do you plan to do when the pro-life movement is successful?"

The pro-life movement will not end up outlawing abortion, though I think Roe will be overturned. What we'll probably see is some states with outright bans, but most states allowing abortion on some level, and some allowing it as it currently is allowed.

I wish pro-life maniacs would concentrate less on the law & on bans, and more on promoting birth control and sex education efforts, which have been effective in making abortion unnecessary. I have always thought one of the great ironies is that some on the pro-life side are also anti birth-control. I read an article about a pharmacist in the south who wouldn't sell it because he considered sperm & eggs on their own worth protecting. That's insanity.

Ultimately, I don't care what you think a fetus is; you can't tell someone what they can or can't do with their body. You simply cannot. Take the case of rape alone. How in the world can you tell a woman who has been raped that she must give birth to that child? It's unconscionable, and it is here where I think most pro-lifers have completely lost their moral compass. And don't even try to say "well, we can include a clause for rape in our ban," because rape is almost impossibly hard to convict in many cases.

It's wrong; you just don't have a right to tell a woman what to do with her body, no matter when you think life begins.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, (and fully ignored), pro-life advocates don't give a ripe shit what women do with their bodies. What we are concerned with, and are working to protect, is the life of a living human whose only offense is to exist.

And it is obvious you "don't care what we think a fetus is". The pro-choice advocates as a group deliberately ignore hard proven science in favor of their opinion that unborn humans are "not human enough" to deserve human rights.

I agree that there are many things that can also be done to prevent unplanned pregnancies. And I am supportive of those measures, including sex education, social education that focuses on the difficulties of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy.

I support the advocacy of using birth control. (those that prevent pregnancy, not end it after the fact) especially the use of condoms which also prevent the transmission of many (but not all) STD. My only exception being the actual distribution of condoms to minors - that is the parents perogative and duty to decide, not the state's.

I also support the advocacy of abstinence. But not at the exclusion of other methods for avoiding unplanned pregnancy, but rather in addition to, and as the more desirable method, out of all methods, that will not only avoid pregnancy, but also ALL STDs, as well as avoiding the emotional baggage (and sometimes trauma) that so often accompanies entering the world of sexual activity too soon.

In short, I, too, prefer to promote avoidance of unwanted pregnancies as much as possible, and for reasons in addition to minimizing the need for abortion.

But I also believe - and have the science of biology as my advocate - that unborn human children are exactly that: HUMAN offspring. Labeling them by their level of biological development does not change the fact that they are living humans. Being human, they, like all other humans in our society, deserve equal application of the law under our Constitution, to include protection of their basic human rights.

And I will continue to work to demand our society grant these innocent humans their human rights.

 

[blackascoal]

1.) I wholeheartedly agree with that.

2.) That was what I said as well.

3.) That is my personal opinion as well, but I was trying to help Raw understand where pro-life advocates are coming from. You cannot deny that they have a moral calling to oppose what they see as a systematic injustice. Not fighting to end it would be comparable to a liberal believing that Darfur is a genocide, but doing nothing to stop it.

I don't disagree with you brother .. but I understood where King was coming from .. and it should be an expected response when anyone compares someone to the KKK and Hitler. It doesn't advance the argument .. which I'm sure you'll agree.

I understand where pro-lifers are coming from, but the hypocrisy of their conflicting positions doesn't advance the argument either.

As I said, pro-lifers are usually religious conservatives who are pro-war, pro-death penalty, and frankly, anti-human. They rail at welfare, social services, and even assistance to the children they demand be born .. even HeadStart is needless to them.

I always marveled at the dummy with hair known as Ronald Reagan, who claimed to be pro-life .. but his ass tried to classify ketchup as a vegetable in school lunch programs because guidelines dictated that school children had to get two vegetables with lunch. The bastard was more interested in saving a nickel than the life, health, and well-being of children.

There is no way to stop abortion .. so let's at least ensure its safely done .. without coat hangers.

 

[blackascoal]

As has been pointed out repeatedly, (and fully ignored), pro-life advocates don't give a ripe shit what women do with their bodies. What we are concerned with, and are working to protect, is the life of a living human whose only offense is to exist.

How can that be accomplished without telling women what to do with their bodies?

And it is obvious you "don't care what we think a fetus is". The pro-choice advocates as a group deliberately ignore hard proven science in favor of their opinion that unborn humans are "not human enough" to deserve human rights.

"Not human enough" is not my argument. I'll ask again ...

Is there any dofference between born and unborn life?

Is a sperm cell a human?

Is a zygote a human?

I agree that there are many things that can also be done to prevent unplanned pregnancies. And I am supportive of those measures, including sex education, social education that focuses on the difficulties of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy.

I support the advocacy of using birth control. (those that prevent pregnancy, not end it after the fact) especially the use of condoms which also prevent the transmission of many (but not all) STD. My only exception being the actual distribution of condoms to minors - that is the parents perogative and duty to decide, not the state's.

There is nothing that can be done to prevent all unplanned pregancies. Condoms are not fail safe, nor is human nature.

Nor is there anything that can be done to prevent abortions .. EVER.

What about in the case of rape? Should that woman be forced to have that child? I think not.

I also support the advocacy of abstinence. But not at the exclusion of other methods for avoiding unplanned pregnancy, but rather in addition to, and as the more desirable method, out of all methods, that will not only avoid pregnancy, but also ALL STDs, as well as avoiding the emotional baggage (and sometimes trauma) that so often accompanies entering the world of sexual activity too soon.

We exist in a sex-driven society where sex sells hammers and deodorant. Abstinence is an unnatural expectation in such a society. I have an almost 17 year-old daughter, and I'm far more concerned about her getting pregnant than I am about her having sex. I don't want her to have sex just yet, but at some point she is going to. ... And quite honestly, I don't think she should get married to someone she hasn't had sex with. Sex is too important a function of marriage to simply roll the dice and hope you're compatible.

Abstinence doesn't honestly address the issue.

In short, I, too, prefer to promote avoidance of unwanted pregnancies as much as possible, and for reasons in addition to minimizing the need for abortion.

But I also believe - and have the science of biology as my advocate - that unborn human children are exactly that: HUMAN offspring. Labeling them by their level of biological development does not change the fact that they are living humans. Being human, they, like all other humans in our society, deserve equal application of the law under our Constitution, to include protection of their basic human rights.

And I will continue to work to demand our society grant these innocent humans their human rights.

I respect your passion for what you believe, but no matter how fervently you believe it, the reality is there is nothing you or anyone else can do to stop abortion or alter human nature.

Pro-lifers are also usually anti-homosexuality .. and like homosexuality, they haven't made a dent in stopping it.

 

[Good Luck]

How can that be accomplished without telling women what to do with their bodies?

Thorny problem, I admit. My objection is people implying that telling a woman what to do is the MOTIVE of the pro-life movement.

But as with all disputes when human rights conflict, the more basic right should always take precedence. A person's right to peaceful sleep is more fundamental - and therefore trumps another person's right to play their music at high volume. Life is the most basic of all human rights and should therefore trump all other rights, but is being denied living humans based on a "reproductive rights' slogan.

"Not human enough" is not my argument. I'll ask again ...

It WAS and is Raw's argument. And that of many other pro-choice advocates.

Is there any dofference between born and unborn life?

What do you mean difference? One is still inside its mother, the other is not. I assume you are talking mammalian life. But we could extend that to egg layers, or any other sexually reproducing life if need be.

Is a sperm cell a human?

No. Basic biology.

Is a zygote a human?

Yes. Again, basic biology. (Assuming you are referring to a human zygote. Obviously, a bovine zygote is not human.)

There is nothing that can be done to prevent all unplanned pregancies. Condoms are not fail safe, nor is human nature.

Never said all unplanned pregnancies can be prevented. But the more unplanned pregnancies that are avoided through better choices and actions of the individuals involved, the fewer abortions will be desired. It would be a desirable outcome, no matter what happens to the legality of abortion, to minimize as much as possible the perceived need for abortions.

Nor is there anything that can be done to prevent abortions .. EVER.

Again, I never said that could be done either. My stated desire is to give unborn human children the same protections of the law as we enjoy. Laws do not stop murder, either. But the law at least TRIES to prevent as many as possible, and tries to protect the members of society from those who would break the law.

What about in the case of rape? Should that woman be forced to have that child? I think not.

I do not believe in punishing the innocent for the actions of the guilty. The woman is innocent, yes. But so is the child. And death is a far harsher punishment than pregnancy.

We exist in a sex-driven society where sex sells hammers and deodorant. Abstinence is an unnatural expectation in such a society. I have an almost 17 year-old daughter, and I'm far more concerned about her getting pregnant than I am about her having sex. I don't want her to have sex just yet, but at some point she is going to. ... And quite honestly, I don't think she should get married to someone she hasn't had sex with. Sex is too important a function of marriage to simply roll the dice and hope you're compatible.

Abstinence doesn't honestly address the issue.

The fact that we use sexuality to sell power tools is not something to be very proud of, or IMO something to be complacent "that's the way things are" about.

Have you let your daughter know about how you do not want her being sexually active "just yet"? If so, you are practicing advocacy of abstinence. No one who supports advocacy of abstinence means we think people should not be ever having sex unless it is with the intent of producing children. That is plain stupid. But advocating abstinence until one is emotionally ready for the potential consequences is not a bad thing. In fact it is a very good thing that needs to be done a lot more.

What I do NOT promote is the idea of throwing out the "liberal" ideas of sex education, STD education, birth control education, etc and replace it all with abstinence education. But I DO promote the idea that including advocacy of abstinence in high school age children and younger - in ADDITION to the other approaches - can only have postitive effects for those few kids who listen.

I respect your passion for what you believe, but no matter how fervently you believe it, the reality is there is nothing you or anyone else can do to stop abortion or alter human nature.

Pro-lifers are also usually anti-homosexuality .. and like homosexuality, they haven't made a dent in stopping it.

I do not plan to stop all abortion - only legal abortion.

Nor do I have any concept of altering human nature.

I DO plan to advocate that our society extend human rights to ALL living humans, and quit using opinion and false science to exclude living humans from the list of who enjoys the protection of basic human rights. (that includes homosexuals.)