Hi -- New here.

I noticed he ran like a scalded cat from *that* idea. Wonder why?

So far it looks like the RW dudes can only focus on her sock-ness and sound mighty envious. Jack-the-chameleon can only focus on "hotness" -- which of course is just another way to slot her into a lower-than-them judgmental category based on appearance.

I'd like you and Phantasmal to realize that ultimately, Oneuli ultimately is the person who will decide if she will debate....whom she will debate...and the circumstances of any debate that occurs.

In any case, as has been mentioned...DEBATE is what IS happening...and Oneuli is kicking ass.
 
It's not a constitutional requirement for the government to provide free health care for everyone. If you feel so charitable about those who lack "adequate medical care," why aren't you stepping up to provide it yourself?

but like the founders planned we can vote it in


and we will

when you shits cant cheat people put to their rights to vote anymore
 
I'd like you and Phantasmal to realize that ultimately, Oneuli ultimately is the person who will decide if she will debate....whom she will debate...and the circumstances of any debate that occurs.

In any case, as has been mentioned...DEBATE is what IS happening...and Oneuli is kicking ass.

well said

we debate all the time

why get one on ones going?
 
I'd like you and Phantasmal to realize that ultimately, Oneuli ultimately is the person who will decide if she will debate....whom she will debate...and the circumstances of any debate that occurs.

In any case, as has been mentioned...DEBATE is what IS happening...and Oneuli is kicking ass.
I knew Grumpy would never agree, it’s why I didn’t purpose it to Oneuli, I thought you would figure out my cleverness.
 

Yes. As I indicated, above, I'm not sure that terminating unwanted pregnancies does, in fact, reduce the share of children who die in infancy (or childhood). I'd want to see stronger support for that notion. But, if it were true, it would certainly be a strong point in favor of the pro-choice position and of the politicians who support it (mostly Democrats).
 
Sounds like what you are arguing here, Grump...is that a capitalistic society such as we have is not up to the job of providing adequate medical care for everyone.

The solution will probably not be found in how to move the deck chairs around. The solution will more likely be: Don't sail on this particular ship.

I think capitalism is...ummm...capital. I am a capitalist.

But if there is no way to provide for adequate health care for EVERYONE using the capitalistic system we have...I am for modifying it as much as necessary...OR SHIT CANNING IT COMPLETELY IF NECESSARY.


Adequate health care for all is a MUST...and it should be in place by yesterday.

You confuse medical insurance with medical care. Sorry but we have one if not the best medical care in the world. What we can't afford is medical insurance for all. You fools refuse to accept the fact that all the systems you adore have a 10th of the population and the taxes are 50 + % of pay. So your utopian dream just won't work here.
 
America already went through this one in practice


the death and suffering was reduced with the legalization of women having control over their own bodies


only idiots who want to force their religion on others and have no understanding of history or freedom who want to go backwards
 
Yes. As I indicated, above, I'm not sure that terminating unwanted pregnancies does, in fact, reduce the share of children who die in infancy (or childhood). I'd want to see stronger support for that notion. But, if it were true, it would certainly be a strong point in favor of the pro-choice position and of the politicians who support it (mostly Democrats).

So using your "logic," if we execute all felons, we reduce the recidivism rate?

I'd favor aborting you, but it's too late, sock.
 
I'd like you and Phantasmal to realize that ultimately, Oneuli ultimately is the person who will decide if she will debate....whom she will debate...and the circumstances of any debate that occurs.
In any case, as has been mentioned...DEBATE is what IS happening...and Oneuli is kicking ass.

Indeed she is. What a pleasure for the eyes and mind to read!
 
I totally disagree. I have seen articles by renowned economist that estimate that Medicare for all would cost 32 trillion and keep going up from there

I'm guessing that you're speaking not of an estimate by a renowned economist, and instead about the recent propaganda piece from the Koch-funded conservative propagandists from the Mercatus Center. The estimate they came up with would involve a per-capita cost for "Medicare for all" of $3.26 trillion per year ($32.6 trillion over a decade). Obviously, since that team effectively works for the Koch Brothers, and earns its income by feeding into the media studies that serve the interests of the Koch Brothers, they're highly motivated to overestimate the costs.

So, how realistic is $3.26 trillion per year? Well, the population is 328 million and growing at a pace of about 0.76% per year. So the average population over the next ten years will be 342 million. Thus, they're estimating a cost of $9,939 per person. Now look here:

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org...-spend-half-much-per-person-health-u-s-spends

As you can see, their estimate for what Medicare-for-all would cost over twice as much as Canada's system (which essentially has Medicare for all) costs. Does that seem realistic to you -- that the US would spend over twice as much as our neighbor to the North for the same thing? Australia is another country that has Medicare for all (even using that same name). Again, Mercatus estimates it would cost well over twice as much to do that here. Why?

I think the obvious answer is that Meratus needed to show a very high price tag to make their funders happy. When your continued employment requires you to find that Medicare for all would be very expensive, you find a way to say that, right?

But, let's even take that at face value, and pretend that it really did cost $9,939 per person. As you can see in the link above, that would be about a 4% savings relative to what we currently spend as a country. The cost would be shifted from the private sector to the public sector, but would drop by 4% overall, EVEN ACCORDING TO THE RIGHT-WING MERCATUS PROPAGANDISTS! And that's when comparing the average annual cost from the next ten years to the current annual cost. Since our costs tend to rise at far more than the rate of inflation, the savings would certainly be larger than that. Over the next ten years, if we make no policy change, the average cost per capita for us is going to be way above the $10,348 referenced in that link. So, even if we could only drop that cost to $9,939 per person, the way the right-wing Mercatus Center thinks we will, that would be a huge savings, net.

No amount of tax raises could cover that

Do the math. Even using the Mercatus Center exaggerated cost, it'll cost $3.26 trillion per year. But that's the total cost for covering everyone, and lots of people are already covered by federal employee and retiree healthcare, Medicare, and Medicaid. Subtract the existing cost of those, and the net added cost is only about half that. As I said, you could cover it simply by hiking overall taxation to a level that was still beneath the OECD average, and well beneath the average for wealthy nations.

expense especially when almost 50% don't pay income taxes in the first place.

Remove the cost for private health insurance and the other huge out-of-pocket expenses people currently have, and more people would be able to pay taxes, the same way as is true in pretty much every other wealthy nation.

Run the numbers yourself and you should see what I mean.
 
not to mention their commitment to smaller soft drinks......

That's pretty new, so it probably hasn't factored in much, but, yes, that's a consideration. There are a number of policies that more liberal areas tend to implement that reduce obesity. One of the most important is city planning in a way that encourages more reliance on mass transit and walking. There's a reason New York City has a vastly lower obesity rate than, say, rural Mississippi. Lower obesity rates mean lower infant mortality rates, longer life expectancies, higher average productivity, etc. Policy choices matter, and areas with conservative cultures tend to make very poor policy choices.
 
You confuse medical insurance with medical care. Sorry but we have one if not the best medical care in the world. What we can't afford is medical insurance for all. You fools refuse to accept the fact that all the systems you adore have a 10th of the population and the taxes are 50 + % of pay. So your utopian dream just won't work here.

we can afford it


you just don't value human life over money
 
I'm guessing that you're speaking not of an estimate by a renowned economist, and instead about the recent propaganda piece from the Koch-funded conservative propagandists from the Mercatus Center. The estimate they came up with would involve a per-capita cost for "Medicare for all" of $3.26 trillion per year ($32.6 trillion over a decade). Obviously, since that team effectively works for the Koch Brothers, and earns its income by feeding into the media studies that serve the interests of the Koch Brothers, they're highly motivated to overestimate the costs.

So, how realistic is $3.26 trillion per year? Well, the population is 328 million and growing at a pace of about 0.76% per year. So the average population over the next ten years will be 342 million. Thus, they're estimating a cost of $9,939 per person. Now look here:

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org...-spend-half-much-per-person-health-u-s-spends

As you can see, their estimate for what Medicare-for-all would cost over twice as much as Canada's system (which essentially has Medicare for all) costs. Does that seem realistic to you -- that the US would spend over twice as much as our neighbor to the North for the same thing? Australia is another country that has Medicare for all (even using that same name). Again, Mercatus estimates it would cost well over twice as much to do that here. Why?

I think the obvious answer is that Meratus needed to show a very high price tag to make their funders happy. When your continued employment requires you to find that Medicare for all would be very expensive, you find a way to say that, right?

But, let's even take that at face value, and pretend that it really did cost $9,939 per person. As you can see in the link above, that would be about a 4% savings relative to what we currently spend as a country. The cost would be shifted from the private sector to the public sector, but would drop by 4% overall, EVEN ACCORDING TO THE RIGHT-WING MERCATUS PROPAGANDISTS! And that's when comparing the average annual cost from the next ten years to the current annual cost. Since our costs tend to rise at far more than the rate of inflation, the savings would certainly be larger than that. Over the next ten years, if we make no policy change, the average cost per capita for us is going to be way above the $10,348 referenced in that link. So, even if we could only drop that cost to $9,939 per person, the way the right-wing Mercatus Center thinks we will, that would be a huge savings, net.



Do the math. Even using the Mercatus Center exaggerated cost, it'll cost $3.26 trillion per year. But that's the total cost for covering everyone, and lots of people are already covered by federal employee and retiree healthcare, Medicare, and Medicaid. Subtract the existing cost of those, and the net added cost is only about half that. As I said, you could cover it simply by hiking overall taxation to a level that was still beneath the OECD average, and well beneath the average for wealthy nations.



Remove the cost for private health insurance and the other huge out-of-pocket expenses people currently have, and more people would be able to pay taxes, the same way as is true in pretty much every other wealthy nation.

Run the numbers yourself and you should see what I mean.
I thought you would be an open minded liberal willing to debate using facts. It appears I was wrong.
When I say economist I mean unbiased economists.
So please don't try the liberal BS that I'm using biased propaganda sources. Your task is simple how do we pay for 3oo + million people's health care without bankrupting the economy. Be specific not generalities. I truly want you to prove that universal health insurance would cost less than the estimates of 32 trillion. Hell even 15 trillion is more than we can afford. I don't know about you but I'm not willing to pay 60,70,80% of my pay for "free" health care.it
 
You confuse medical insurance with medical care.

I am not confusing anything. The continuum can be discussed the way I have been doing.



Sorry but we have one if not the best medical care in the world.

Horse shit. Not even in the top 10 in the world.


What we can't afford is medical insurance for all.

Fuck the insurance. We don't want insurance...we want healthcare.

You fools refuse to accept the fact that all the systems you adore have a 10th of the population and the taxes are 50 + % of pay. So your utopian dream just won't work here.

Apparently not under the current system...which is what I said. So...either fix the current system...or shit can it.
 

I find their methodology problematic. For example, they count the time of commute, and that's going to tend to disfavor cities, where total door-to-door time for a commuter is going to tend to be longer. But the same amount of time can be experienced very differently in different modes. My typical commute has been somewhere around 30 minutes, depending on where I happen to be working. That consists of about ten minutes of walking, and 20 minutes sitting on a train. I wouldn't change that for a 20-minute commute spent driving. My time walking helps to keep me slim and healthy, and my time sitting on the train can be used to catch up on the news of the world, messaging with friends, etc. 20 minutes driving a car in traffic would just be 20 minutes of stress.

It also seems weird that they'd factor in a raw count of the 20-year water-system needs. I see New York at $22.8 billion, which is obviously much more than, say, West Virginia at $2.3 billion. But New York also has a GDP of $1.5 trillion, versus WV at $73 billion. So, for NY that means an average of 0.076% of its annual GDP going to water-system needs over the next 20 years, versus 0.16% for West Virginia. Relative to economic capability, WV has twice the burden ahead of it.
 
That's pretty new, so it probably hasn't factored in much, but, yes, that's a consideration. There are a number of policies that more liberal areas tend to implement that reduce obesity. One of the most important is city planning in a way that encourages more reliance on mass transit and walking. There's a reason New York City has a vastly lower obesity rate than, say, rural Mississippi. Lower obesity rates mean lower infant mortality rates, longer life expectancies, higher average productivity, etc. Policy choices matter, and areas with conservative cultures tend to make very poor policy choices.

Can you show that these policies have produced positive results by citing pre-and post-implementation statistics, sock?
 
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