Hi -- New here.

This is an eloquent and well-thought-out explanation. The only thing that I would add is that the genius of the GOP has been their ability to convince their base that if only they too work hard enough, they could also be CEOs pulling in thousands per minute. So we must not even *think* about taxing these "job creators" any more than we already do, because if you're in favor of that you could very well be cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Some day. If you work hard.

I think that also goes a long way to explain why Republicans tend to do well in elections when Democratic leaders have brought the nation to a point of rapid economic improvement.

For example, consider 2016. You might have expected it to be a tough year for Republicans. After all, we were near full employment, years into one of the longest economic growth cycles ever, and both 2015 and 2016 had some of the most rapid real income growth in our history. But that's exactly the context that makes naive middle-class people think of themselves as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires." With no immediate need for a social safety net, and with big recent gains in their pockets, it was easy to imagine they'd NEVER need government assistance, and that before long they'd be the ones benefiting from a cut to the top income tax rate. That makes people more open to the Republican sales pitch. Even those who aren't tricked into thinking they're soon going to be CEOs pulling in thousands per minute are at least looking past the kinds of economic issues that favor Democrats, and instead responding to the wedge issues Republicans succeed with (e.g., Trump's focus on law and order, as well as xenophobia). A feeling of economic security gives people the luxury of focusing instead on tribal resentments.

If 2016 were the only instance where a strong Democrat-led economy resulted in a Republican president being elected, you'd be right to dismiss my theory as half-baked. But didn't we also see that in 2000? Unemployment was below 4%, real incomes were at an all-time high, and suddenly people liked the sound of upper-class tax cuts more than the sound of mending the social safety net. Or how about the previous time when sub-4% unemployment and record real incomes coincided with a presidential election? That was 1968. The reward the Democrats got for leading the nation to such gains was to have the presidency handed to Nixon. Are those three just a coincidence? Well, how about 1952? The Democrats had taken control of the White House years earlier in the depths of the Great Depression, and had led us all the way to sub-3% unemployment rates and far and away the greatest prosperity in the nation's history. The People chose to turn the White House over to the Republicans.

Usually, after a few years of Republican leadership, the nation goes into recession and then longer-term stagnation, and eventually the people get sick of it and vote the Democrats back into the presidency, as in 1932, 1960, 1976, 1992, and 2016. But that requires years of having their noses rubbed into the fact that they're not millionaires-in-waiting who will soon benefit from GOP policies.
 
nakano_maid_sign02.jpg

I have no reason to think my friend is lying to me about his experience. It's certainly consistent with some news stories on the topic:

http://wordpress.tokyotimes.org/japans-lack-of-fondness-for-foreigners/

When were the people you know stationed in Okinawa? It's possible that attitudes have changed. I know there was some very high-profile violent crime committed by American members of the Navy and Marines there back in the mid-1990s, so if their experience predates that, they may have had a different reception. Although violent crimes are very common in the US, to the point that each crime is quickly forgotten, in Japan they're rare enough that they can still have major social implications long after the fact. For example, here's a 2012 story linking anti-American sentiment in Okinawa to a 1995 kidnapping and rape of a Japanese 12-year-old by American servicemen.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...utpost-Okinawa-9-000-Marines-prepare-out.html

Believe what you will, I have no reason to lie about Okinawa. Sure the is some bias against Americans but that is mostly isolated to areas where large groups of Americans are stationed. Hell it's like that anywhere large numbers of GI''s are stationed. As a matter of fact it even happens here.
 
:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Pay Grumps no mind. We've unfortunately shared forums for years. He thinks *everyone* new is a sock, particularly if they are 1) female, 2) liberal, 3) smarter than he is, and 4) obviously well-educated. In other words, at least a third of us here are socks. lol

In the end, it doesn't really matter. We could all be a single liberal user with a bunch of accounts and it would still come down to whether or not the arguments in each post stand up or not. In an anonymous forum like this, we are only as good as the facts and logic we present for our ideas, since nothing can hang on biography. I'd like to see more engagement on that substance, rather than so much preoccupation with personal stuff. If they want to think me a sock, fine -- that doesn't hurt me at all. But if they focus on that in lieu of addressing my argument, it suggests they can't think of a decent response.
 
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In the end, it doesn't really matter. We could all be a single liberal user with a bunch of accounts and it would still come down to whether or not the arguments in each post stand up or not. In an anonymous forum like this, we are only as good as the facts and logic we present for our ideas, since nothing can hang on biography. I'd like to see more engagement on that substance, rather than so much preoccupation with personal stuff. If they want to think me a sock, find -- that doesn't hurt me at all. But if they focus on that in lieu of addressing my argument, it suggests they can't think of a decent response.

I don't know how much or what kind of experience you've had with discussion forums prior to this. Hope you don't mind an observation. I have noticed over the 20+ years I've been on the Internet and chat rooms/discussion forums that there is a subgroup of men who will -- once they discover that a poster is female -- refuse to discuss what she writes, her ideas, opinions, factual presentations, etc. They will either completely ignore her in favor of male posters or females who share their same political POV, or resort to what you've seen here on this thread. If you appear smarter than they are, or if you don't agree with their opinions, then you are a "man hater," a "crone," "lesbian," a "sockpuppet," and on and on. If there was a self-esteem meter, theirs would register in the negative. So just ignore the clowns on this thread. There are plenty of intelligent, articulate, and civil ppl here to discuss things with, on both sides of the political aisle.
 
Hello Oneuli,

I think people would also be outraged by the overall pay structure if they really understood it. People have a vague notion about CEOs being paid obscene amounts -- e.g., $40 million for a year's work. But I think most haven't really considered the way the pay structure is shaped beneath that level... how, for example, single-digit percentage bonuses for most people at the company give way to three-digit percentage bonuses for the c-level execs. If people better understood that their boss may be making twice what they do for doing a lot less, they'd be more vocal about the inequity of it all.

Off the topic, but this had me thinking about a pet theory of mine -- about why Trump-supporters in the blue-collar middle class are more pissed off about the possibility of some undeserving poor people getting a few bucks of welfare than about high-level corporate exec getting millions of dollars of benefits from corporate welfare; and why they're more outraged about the possibility of a food-stamp recipient scamming a t-bone steak than about someone like Trump scamming people out of millions.

I think it's because familiarity breeds contempt, and they're a whole lot more familiar with the low end of the income structure than the high end. They have old classmates and cousins and the like who are members of the lower class, that so they're aware, first-hand, of some unsavory people at that level. They allow themselves to think of the whole class in those terms. The lazy nephew they have who has been nursing a fake injury for 10 years to live off disability becomes their vision of all poor people.... often made all the more toxic when they then layer racial prejudices on top of that when they think of poor minorities. By comparison, they just don't run in the same social or professional circles as the economic elite, so they are taken in by the mythology about them owing their success to great personal merit. Meanwhile, young professionals like me actually run in the same professional circles as the elite. We personally interact with the c-level execs. We know they tend to be con-men and third-class intellects who get ahead through a sociopathic willingness to use others as traction. We do their work and watch them take the seven-figure paydays for our successes, while making sure we get the blame for the failures. So, familiarity breeds contempt there, too. I don't know Donald Trump personally, but I do personally know several men of his sort, and so his mythology has never worked on me.

I like YOU!

As far as I am concerned, you are just what this forum needed.

I do *so* hope you make this place a new hangout and settle in for the long run.

It's so true. Have you ever seen that little video about the distribution of wealth in the USA? Most people have a certain perception of the distribution, and they don't think it's right; instead they think it should be more equitable than what they believe it to be. Then the video goes on to show that what the reality is? That's as far removed from what their perception was as the difference between what they thought it should be and what they thought would be equitable. If the world thought that royalty in the previous age economic systems of kingdoms was undeservedly pampered, it is hard to figure how they think it is justifiable under strongly unbridled capitalism to have a few people becoming so rich (just because they can) when so many who work to make it all happen are so lacking.

Wealth Distribution in the USA:

 
Hello Oneuli,



Cool.

Naturally, you will find a lot of straw man builders also. They can only argue if they rewrite what you said to make it easier for them to disparage.

I wish people could simply say what they mean, and mean what they say, without all the games. Too many are afflicted with 'alternate facts.' It's difficult to discuss policy if there is no agreement on the facts. That's often done on purpose, because if they admit the facts their policy stinks.

Indeed.
 
Usually, after a few years of Republican leadership, the nation goes into recession and then longer-term stagnation, and eventually the people get sick of it and vote the Democrats back into the presidency, as in 1932, 1960, 1976, 1992, and 2016. But that requires years of having their noses rubbed into the fact that they're not millionaires-in-waiting who will soon benefit from GOP policies.

You make a good case for "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it." I expect between the tax cuts, increasing inflation rate coupled with stagnant wages, the tariffs, and no efforts being made to curb government spending and create a surplus, we are headed for another downturn. What do you think?

"Tribal resentments" -- in other words, racism. (R)s can always count on winning with the twin ponies of racism and xenophobia, as you pointed out.
 
In the end, it doesn't really matter. We could all be a single liberal user with a bunch of accounts and it would still come down to whether or not the arguments in each post stand up or not. In an anonymous forum like this, we are only as good as the facts and logic we present for our ideas, since nothing can hang on biography.

Yet you went to great lengths to lend yourself gender and ethnic attributes, sock. Isn't identity politics a hallmark of liberalism today?
 
Believe what you will, I have no reason to lie about Okinawa.

I didn't suggest that you lied about anything. I did, however, ask when the people you know were stationed there, since that might explain the difference between the experiences they related to you and the experiences my friend related to me (very recently).

Sure the is some bias against Americans but that is mostly isolated to areas where large groups of Americans are stationed. Hell it's like that anywhere large numbers of GI''s are stationed. As a matter of fact it even happens here.

See my other post, above, with the links to all the examples and discussion of "no foreigners" and "no Americans" signs in Japan. It would appear there are lots of places in Japan you could go to if you really want to know what it's like to be victimized on that basis.
 
I don't know how much or what kind of experience you've had with discussion forums prior to this. Hope you don't mind an observation. I have noticed over the 20+ years I've been on the Internet and chat rooms/discussion forums that there is a subgroup of men who will -- once they discover that a poster is female -- refuse to discuss what she writes, her ideas, opinions, factual presentations, etc. They will either completely ignore her in favor of male posters or females who share their same political POV, or resort to what you've seen here on this thread. If you appear smarter than they are, or if you don't agree with their opinions, then you are a "man hater," a "crone," "lesbian," a "sockpuppet," and on and on. If there was a self-esteem meter, theirs would register in the negative. So just ignore the clowns on this thread. There are plenty of intelligent, articulate, and civil ppl here to discuss things with, on both sides of the political aisle.

On Slate and Salon's comments sections, to be honest, I didn't see the same kind of hostility as here, but I've certainly read about a lot of women facing that kind of reception. I'm sure that within a few days I'll get a feel for which posters are capable of substantive discussion and which aren't. At this point, all the names are sort of running together for me, so I'm just trying to take each post individually without preconceptions of what the poster is capable of.
 
Hello ThatOwlWoman,

This is an eloquent and well-thought-out explanation. The only thing that I would add is that the genius of the GOP has been their ability to convince their base that if only they too work hard enough, they could also be CEOs pulling in thousands per minute. So we must not even *think* about taxing these "job creators" any more than we already do, because if you're in favor of that you could very well be cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Some day. If you work hard.

Their base was likewise easily gulled into believing that all liberals want is other ppl's money, free stuff, and larger more intrusive government/less freedom. Like you pointed out, almost everyone knows of someone they've witnessed in their own life who was cheating on unemployment, food stamps, social security disability, or the like. Or at least they appeared to be cheating. The difference, as you aptly pointed out, between political persuasions is that the cons think everyone on public benefits is cheating; liberals think that the relatively few cheaters are the small price we pay to ensure that our citizens have food, place to live, health care, etc.

Good point, OwlWoman.

They've got all these people thinking one day they will work their way up to the top, but the reality is there simply are not enough top positions for everybody.

That means most will never get there. All that bust ass for a big let-down. Some could think of it as a wasted life of missed opportunities. 'You gambled and you lost' is the most common story.

The sad reality is that a lot of those top positions are rarely opened up for availability to anyone who wasn't from a privileged beginning. Sure, it happens, and the believers ware always quick to point out examples. But examples are not the norm. People often get top positions because their family is well connected. With so few top positions out there, and so many of them being taken by somebody 'on the inside,' that leaves very few opportunities for somebody to 'work their way up.'
 
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Yet, here You are handing out rewards to Legion for his stupidity and claiming someone is a sock when you offer no proof. It seems you should heed your own advice.

It's the fact that she said she leans hard to the left. Had she said she leans far to the right they'd be fawning over her.
 
Hello Oneuli,



I like YOU!

As far as I am concerned, you are just what this forum needed.

I do *so* hope you make this place a new hangout and settle in for the long run.

It's so true. Have you ever seen that little video about the distribution of wealth in the USA? Most people have a certain perception of the distribution, and they don't think it's right; instead they think it should be more equitable than what they believe it to be. Then the video goes on to show that what the reality is? That's as far removed from what their perception was as the difference between what they thought it should be and what they thought would be equitable. If the world thought that royalty in the previous age economic systems of kingdoms was undeservedly pampered, it is hard to figure how they think it is justifiable under strongly unbridled capitalism to have a few people becoming so rich (just because they can) when so many who work to make it all happen are so lacking.

Wealth Distribution in the USA:


I hadn't seen that. Thanks!

It reminds me of another video I saw where they asked people what they thought about the budget. For example, they'd ask if they thought we spent too little or too much of our budget on something like foreign humanitarian aid or support for the arts. Then they'd ask people what they thought would be an appropriate portion of the discretionary budget to spend on it. The amusing thing was that people had a tendency to provide radically inconsistent answers to the two linked questions. For example, they'd insist we spend too much on support for the arts in this country, and then say we should only be spending 5% of our discretionary budget on it, when in fact 5% would be VASTLY more than we actually spend. Or they'd say we spend too little on our military and that we should be spending a quarter of our discretionary budget on it, even when that's far less than we actually spend.
 
On Slate and Salon's comments sections, to be honest, I didn't see the same kind of hostility as here, but I've certainly read about a lot of women facing that kind of reception. I'm sure that within a few days I'll get a feel for which posters are capable of substantive discussion and which aren't. At this point, all the names are sort of running together for me, so I'm just trying to take each post individually without preconceptions of what the poster is capable of.

You're assuming that people believe your claim to be a woman, aren't you, sock?

Do you think making such a claim imbues you with a special status?
 
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