Hypocrite of the Year

And in the course of trying to paint conservatives with the label of hypocrisy, we see another prime dictionary example, in which the act of legislative bribery is relabeled "getting a few more dollars for their state".

In case you are not aware, it was NOT a matter of a senator asking for exclusions in order to get more for his state. What happened was a bunch of other senators, in the successful effort to obtain (ie: BRIBE) his vote, OFFERED the exclusion clause, just as they offered other clauses to gain the votes of other senators.

If the republicans were doing this to maneuver some piece of legislation, like say a nation wide ban on elective abortions, you'd be popping blood vessels at the practice. But since it is something you want to be passed, you assume the stance of "the end justifies the means" which is about as lacking in moral character as one can get. Yet in your diatribe you most obviously display the "pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess."

In short, your very words prove once again who is the true hypocrite.

I see you have difficulty making distinctions between "good and bad" and "bribe and reward" as evidenced by your example.

Often parents bribe their children. For example, they may tell their child that if they receive good marks in school they will get a gift they wanted. Rather than use the word "bribe" we tend to use "reward".

We know a government health plan is good. We know every country which implemented a health plan has kept it. We know the cost is much less than what is currently being spent. We know more people will be covered.

When it comes to abortions we know restrictions result in women obtaining illegal, life-threatening procedures. We know young women often stop their education and end up in poverty. We know the children brought into the world by women who did not want children often end up neglected. We know a large percentage of neglected, mistreated children grow up to repeat the cycle or end up in prisons.

In an ideal world, I agree, the necessity of such legislative rewards would be frowned upon, however, considering the magnitude of benefits a health plan will offer coupled with knowing implementing a health plan has taken generations to become reality surely you can see the much greater good.
 
We know a government health plan is good. We know every country which implemented a health plan has kept it. We know the cost is much less than what is currently being spent. We know more people will be covered.

When it comes to abortions we know restrictions result in women obtaining illegal, life-threatening procedures. We know young women often stop their education and end up in poverty. We know the children brought into the world by women who did not want children often end up neglected. We know a large percentage of neglected, mistreated children grow up to repeat the cycle or end up in prisons.

we know you are wrong on every one of those points....it puzzles me why you say them, since I suspect you know they aren't true as well.....that inherent dishonesty is why I cannot abide liberals.....

in short, liberals will say anything, do anything to remain in power.....you want to kill your children?....fine, vote for us and you can kill your children.....you want to take money from the rich and give it to yourself?.....fine, vote for us and you can do it.....you want to destroy everything that has made us American?......fine, vote for us and it's done......
 
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A full blown condemnation of the entire DNC, who spent 8 years decrying government corruption, including the rider and amendment method of mutual back scratching legislative pork (even while engaging in it as the majority party for 6 of those 8 years), who promised "Change in the way government works", only to wind up with a cabinet rife with tax dodgers, only to ramp up the levels of legislative corruption from the usual mutual back scratching to outright blatant bribery to get their legislative crap passed.

And a full blown condemnation of mindless lemming twits like yourself who support them in their hypocritical actions while continuing your bellyaching about Bush.

Sticks & stones, GL. You're pretty good at the namecalling; logical arguments & objectivity? Not so much.

I pointed out your initial response because it's so blatantly hypocritical as to border on pure comedy. I have little doubt that you don't recognize that, but it is what it is.
 
we know you are wrong on every one of those points....it puzzles me why you say them, since I suspect you know they aren't true as well.....that inherent dishonesty is why I cannot abide liberals.....

in short, liberals will say anything, do anything to remain in power.....you want to kill your children?....fine, vote for us and you can kill your children.....you want to take money from the rich and give it to yourself?.....fine, vote for us and you can do it.....you want to destroy everything that has made us American?......fine, vote for us and it's done......

I have a question. Where do you get the idea Liberals don't have money?

I always hear sentiments similar to "You want to take money from the rich and give it to yourself."

Ted Kennedy wasn't exactly a pauper and he could certainly be considered a Liberal.

There are two kinds of wealthy people in the world. One believes they are special and the other realizes but for the Grace of God they'd be poor. One believes it was only hard work and intelligence that got them there while the other knows luck/good fortune and circumstance played a huge roll.

Needless to say I get along much better with the "other". :)
 
I see you have difficulty making distinctions between "good and bad" and "bribe and reward" as evidenced by your example.

Often parents bribe their children. For example, they may tell their child that if they receive good marks in school they will get a gift they wanted. Rather than use the word "bribe" we tend to use "reward".

We know a government health plan is good. We know every country which implemented a health plan has kept it. We know the cost is much less than what is currently being spent. We know more people will be covered.

When it comes to abortions we know restrictions result in women obtaining illegal, life-threatening procedures. We know young women often stop their education and end up in poverty. We know the children brought into the world by women who did not want children often end up neglected. We know a large percentage of neglected, mistreated children grow up to repeat the cycle or end up in prisons.

In an ideal world, I agree, the necessity of such legislative rewards would be frowned upon, however, considering the magnitude of benefits a health plan will offer coupled with knowing implementing a health plan has taken generations to become reality surely you can see the much greater good.
In the first place, it is yourself who cannot distinguish the difference between reward and bribe. Bribe occurs as a promise of a reward prior to an action in order to motivate a desired behavior. Reward occurs as a response to a desired behavior. Reward, if the desired behavior is shown, is a part of the bribe process. But a bribe is not necessarily a part of the reward process.

And the fact that you can equate the governance of a (supposedly) free people to the rearing of children is pathetic beyond comprehension. Do you actually promote the idea that we hold adults who are writing trillion dollar laws to the same standards that we hold our children? Yet this self-same child-like governing body you trust to "do the right thing"?

And, while I can see the good in providing health care to those in need but cannot afford it, I do not see that good coming from this particular piece of legislation. I do not see ANY ultimate good coming from any health care "reform" (what a fucking lie!) that does not first and foremost address the reasons health care costs have, over the past two decades or so, risen an average of 3 times the inflation rate.

And I NEVER agree that using illicit and corrupt means to pass a piece of legislation will EVER result in "greater good". That idea smacks of an elitism that is intolerable to our type of society. "We know what is best for the rest of you whether you agree or not" simply will not pass muster - especially when "the rest of you" happens to comprise a majority both in public opinion and among the legislators themselves. If the "greater good" is actually contained within the legislation, then it should be able to pass on its own merits rather than being forced through using favors and bribes. If it cannot pass on its own merits - especially when the party pushing it holds an insurmountable majority - then the difficulty in getting it passed SHOULD be a warning flag to anyone outside the legislative process who supports it. If you cannot get your own party members to sign on without bribing them to do so, then just MAYBE it isn't such a hot bill in the first place.


And the "anything is better than nothing" claim is equally unsustainable. Would adding a rider requiring people over 70 with terminal disease be euthanized be an acceptable part? Wouldn't that still be part of "anything" and therefore be better than "nothing"?

Of course not. The reason I use this extreme is to point out that ANYTHING does not automatically mean better than nothing. The objections to this bill are numerous, but the most important one is it is a big fat profit grab for the major insurance companies. It does nothing to control health care costs, and contrary to their talking points, it is far more likely to increase both health care costs and health insurance costs. It's costs are already way outside the original claims, especially when they have granted exclusions to certain states in order to buy some votes.

What do you want to bet that there are already deals being struck in back rooms to assure certain insurance carriers are guaranteed acceptance by the federal insurance clearing house when it comes to power? What do you want to bet that deals are also being struck to EXCLUDE certain rival insurance companies? Not only does this bill get passed by corruption, it begs more corruption.

Bottom line, it is a bad bill. No, I do not disagree with the principle of getting people in need adequate health care. I do not disagree with providing assistance of any kind for those who need it. I DO disagree with most (but not all) liberal methods of assisting the needy - whether it be health care or housing or anything else - because most of their methods end up being used as economic traps by the government supposedly looking out for them. And, more specifically, I disagree that the bill up for negotiation between the two houses of congress is a good bill. It is not even a step in the right direction of providing more equitable access to health care. It is a bad bill, and THAT is why it needs bribery and skulduggery to get it passed.
 
In the first place, it is yourself who cannot distinguish the difference between reward and bribe. Bribe occurs as a promise of a reward prior to an action in order to motivate a desired behavior. Reward occurs as a response to a desired behavior. Reward, if the desired behavior is shown, is a part of the bribe process. But a bribe is not necessarily a part of the reward process.

And the fact that you can equate the governance of a (supposedly) free people to the rearing of children is pathetic beyond comprehension. Do you actually promote the idea that we hold adults who are writing trillion dollar laws to the same standards that we hold our children? Yet this self-same child-like governing body you trust to "do the right thing"?

And, while I can see the good in providing health care to those in need but cannot afford it, I do not see that good coming from this particular piece of legislation. I do not see ANY ultimate good coming from any health care "reform" (what a fucking lie!) that does not first and foremost address the reasons health care costs have, over the past two decades or so, risen an average of 3 times the inflation rate.

And I NEVER agree that using illicit and corrupt means to pass a piece of legislation will EVER result in "greater good". That idea smacks of an elitism that is intolerable to our type of society. "We know what is best for the rest of you whether you agree or not" simply will not pass muster - especially when "the rest of you" happens to comprise a majority both in public opinion and among the legislators themselves. If the "greater good" is actually contained within the legislation, then it should be able to pass on its own merits rather than being forced through using favors and bribes. If it cannot pass on its own merits - especially when the party pushing it holds an insurmountable majority - then the difficulty in getting it passed SHOULD be a warning flag to anyone outside the legislative process who supports it. If you cannot get your own party members to sign on without bribing them to do so, then just MAYBE it isn't such a hot bill in the first place.


And the "anything is better than nothing" claim is equally unsustainable. Would adding a rider requiring people over 70 with terminal disease be euthanized be an acceptable part? Wouldn't that still be part of "anything" and therefore be better than "nothing"?

Of course not. The reason I use this extreme is to point out that ANYTHING does not automatically mean better than nothing. The objections to this bill are numerous, but the most important one is it is a big fat profit grab for the major insurance companies. It does nothing to control health care costs, and contrary to their talking points, it is far more likely to increase both health care costs and health insurance costs. It's costs are already way outside the original claims, especially when they have granted exclusions to certain states in order to buy some votes.

What do you want to bet that there are already deals being struck in back rooms to assure certain insurance carriers are guaranteed acceptance by the federal insurance clearing house when it comes to power? What do you want to bet that deals are also being struck to EXCLUDE certain rival insurance companies? Not only does this bill get passed by corruption, it begs more corruption.

Bottom line, it is a bad bill. No, I do not disagree with the principle of getting people in need adequate health care. I do not disagree with providing assistance of any kind for those who need it. I DO disagree with most (but not all) liberal methods of assisting the needy - whether it be health care or housing or anything else - because most of their methods end up being used as economic traps by the government supposedly looking out for them. And, more specifically, I disagree that the bill up for negotiation between the two houses of congress is a good bill. It is not even a step in the right direction of providing more equitable access to health care. It is a bad bill, and THAT is why it needs bribery and skulduggery to get it passed.

Damn, that's real. Well said.
 
I have a question. Where do you get the idea Liberals don't have money?

I always hear sentiments similar to "You want to take money from the rich and give it to yourself."

Ted Kennedy wasn't exactly a pauper and he could certainly be considered a Liberal.
Who said those taking from the rich to give to themselves were poor?

Ever notice how the supposedly "progressive" tax laws so strongly promoted by the democratic party invariable end up favoring the richest who are writing those laws (and their buddies who pay for their reelection campaigns.) Rich liberals have no objection to "progressive" tax laws because they know the tax codes allow them to hide the majority of their income from that dreaded "taxable income" line of their tax returns.

Of course, when people come out with the idea of a flat tax, every one pay the same percentage on ALL personal income, well that just cannot work, because we need a PROGRESSIVE system (ie: one that nails the middle and upper middle classes to the wall) to be "fair".

In short, your comprehension of the criticism "they take from the rich to give to themselves" is woefully lacking.
 
Ever notice how the supposedly "progressive" tax laws so strongly promoted by the democratic party invariable end up favoring the richest who are writing those laws (and their buddies who pay for their reelection campaigns.)

That being the case why didn't the wealthy fight against Bush's tax cuts? Rich Liberals have no objection to "progressive" tax laws but rich Conservatives do?

Is that "new speak"?

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Who said those taking from the rich to give to themselves were poor?

Ever notice how the supposedly "progressive" tax laws so strongly promoted by the democratic party invariable end up favoring the richest who are writing those laws (and their buddies who pay for their reelection campaigns.) Rich liberals have no objection to "progressive" tax laws because they know the tax codes allow them to hide the majority of their income from that dreaded "taxable income" line of their tax returns.

Of course, when people come out with the idea of a flat tax, every one pay the same percentage on ALL personal income, well that just cannot work, because we need a PROGRESSIVE system (ie: one that nails the middle and upper middle classes to the wall) to be "fair".

In short, your comprehension of the criticism "they take from the rich to give to themselves" is woefully lacking.
 
That being the case why didn't the wealthy fight against Bush's tax cuts? Rich Liberals have no objection to "progressive" tax laws but rich Conservatives do?

Is that "new speak"?

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Why is it you need to have the most obvious things explained in detail?

The wealthy did not object to Bush's tax cuts because those cuts did not get rid of any of the tax loopholes that allow them to only declare a part of their actual income. In fact they added the tax loophole of declaring dividend income "double taxation". So they get the best of both worlds: a lower progressive rate AND loopholes. (DUH!)

But, if you pay any attention to ideas not stamped for approval by the DNC, you will see the wealthy are every bit as opposed to a flat tax that gets rid of all loopholes as are the class-warfare promoting liberals who say flat taxes are unfair because the wealthy need to be taxed more (while making damned sure they are not.)
 
a classic example is the Medicare drug reimbursement plan.....we began with a proposal from the right that we should assist the poor with purchasing prescription drugs.....but the left objected....it wasn't broad enough....so we ended up with a plan that provided subsidies including those earning up to $120k......

and last year with the expansion of insurance for minors.....it wasn't enough to help the poor, we had to help people earning $80k a year....

for the left it has never been about the poor, it's been "how many people can we make dependent on the federal government".....
 
Why is it you need to have the most obvious things explained in detail?

The wealthy did not object to Bush's tax cuts because those cuts did not get rid of any of the tax loopholes that allow them to only declare a part of their actual income. In fact they added the tax loophole of declaring dividend income "double taxation". So they get the best of both worlds: a lower progressive rate AND loopholes. (DUH!)

But, if you pay any attention to ideas not stamped for approval by the DNC, you will see the wealthy are every bit as opposed to a flat tax that gets rid of all loopholes as are the class-warfare promoting liberals who say flat taxes are unfair because the wealthy need to be taxed more (while making damned sure they are not.)

So if the Liberals are still giving the wealthy tax breaks why are the wealthy against the Liberals?
 
So if the Liberals are still giving the wealthy tax breaks why are the wealthy against the Liberals?
Are you implying that ALL wealthy are against modern liberalism? Have you heard of the Kennedy's? Why, yes, I believe it was you who first mention them while complaining a few posts ago about the implication that all liberals are all without money. You keep biting your own tail in this. But that is the way with hypocritical thinking. (or letting your political masters think for you.)

It's already been explained. Republicans (not to be confused with the modern conservative movement) represent the economic best of both worlds: lower tax rates and lots of loopholes. The Democratic party represents lots of loopholes, plus the feel-good lie and political power that comes from "helping" the poor through promoting class warfare and government assistance traps. BOTH represent keeping the wealth in the hands of the wealthy.

You do know that there is not a single successful politician (defined as making it to a national level office) who is not independently wealthy, don't you? I doubt there is a single state governor who is not independently wealthy, either. But there are plenty of democratic politicians, aren't there? Ever wonder where their motivations come from? (And if you for one brief nanosecond think "altruism", then you may as well get a(nother?) prefrontal lobotomy and get a donkey's hoof print tattooed on your ass.)
 
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Are you implying that ALL wealthy are against modern liberalism? Have you heard of the Kennedy's? Why, yes, I believe it was you who first mention them while complaining a few posts ago about the implication that all liberals are all without money. You keep biting your own tail in this. But that is the way with hypocritical thinking. (or letting your political masters think for you.)

It's already been explained. Republicans (not to be confused with the modern conservative movement) represent the economic best of both worlds: lower tax rates and lots of loopholes. The Democratic party represents lots of loopholes, plus the feel-good lie and political power that comes from "helping" the poor through promoting class warfare and government assistance traps. BOTH represent keeping the wealth in the hands of the wealthy.

You do know that there is not a single successful politician (defined as making it to a national level office) who is not independently wealthy, don't you? I doubt there is a single state governor who is not independently wealthy, either. But there are plenty of democratic politicians, aren't there? Ever wonder where their motivations come from? (And if you for one brief nanosecond think "altruism", then you may as well get a(nother?) prefrontal lobotomy and get a donkey's hoof print tattooed on your ass.)

"Government assistance traps." Maybe we should let the people who receive government assistance decide whether or not they want it. How about that idea?

My party affiliation is with the party that helps the citizens. Access to education (as in FREE training), access to housing, cash and/or food for those without......a government that tries to make people's lives easier.

I don't care what money a politician has or how they made their money. I don't look backwards. I look at what they are going to do for the people.

As I explained before a lot of poor countries have high crime rates because the people are trying to survive. We have to ensure everyone has a minimum standard of living in comparison to the rest of the society in which they live.
 
"Government assistance traps." Maybe we should let the people who receive government assistance decide whether or not they want it. How about that idea?

My party affiliation is with the party that helps the citizens. Access to education (as in FREE training), access to housing, cash and/or food for those without......a government that tries to make people's lives easier.

I don't care what money a politician has or how they made their money. I don't look backwards. I look at what they are going to do for the people.

As I explained before a lot of poor countries have high crime rates because the people are trying to survive. We have to ensure everyone has a minimum standard of living in comparison to the rest of the society in which they live.

There's a party in the U.S. that 'helps' the citizens? Which one is that apple?
 
"Government assistance traps." Maybe we should let the people who receive government assistance decide whether or not they want it. How about that idea?

Because when we do (as we do today), people like you say we should have done it earlier and still earlier, providing all things to everybody.

My party affiliation is with the party that helps the citizens. Access to education (as in FREE training), access to housing, cash and/or food for those without......a government that tries to make people's lives easier.
Both parties support these things, and the training portion is almost always put forward by the party you don't support, the one that wants to provide an out to the assistance trap.

I don't care what money a politician has or how they made their money. I don't look backwards. I look at what they are going to do for the people.
I don't particularly care about that either. Although I usually look to see which ones provide solutions that aren't centralized solely in a supposedly benevolent government. I fully believe that societies who are willing to give up freedoms for security will wind up holding nothing in the end.

As I explained before a lot of poor countries have high crime rates because the people are trying to survive. We have to ensure everyone has a minimum standard of living in comparison to the rest of the society in which they live.

Which is pretty much what we do, while at the same time attempting to provide incentive to get off the government provisions...
 
There's a party in the U.S. that 'helps' the citizens? Which one is that apple?

Currently the one doing it's best to push and shove and cram and force some sort of government medical into law. There's that glass wall that has to be broken through.
 
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