If Obama loses .. it won't be because of race.

[Socrtease]

I think all left leaning Dems should vote for someone else. Then the Democratic party can see that they are NOT allies of the party and not just incrementally distance themselves, but adopt a truly centerist platform and make it obvious to independents and moderate dems that there is only one place to cast your vote.

 

[Cancel7]

"You basically want Obama to be a guy that can't win a general election or even a fucking Democratic primary. You basically want Denis Kucinich, which is fine. But you should recognize that such a person will never be president. Ever."

Mega-ditto's on that one. Obama is getting a pretty rough treatment from many on the left right now, simply because of the high expectations & excitement he initially created. Now that people are coming to terms with the fact that he's got some regular ol' politician in him, the reaction to that is much more that it would be for anyone else that was in the Dem field, and certainly much more than anything McCain is getting.

Maybe that is why I haven't had this reaction. I never thought Obama was anything other than a centrist dem, who would swing even more to the right during the general. I argued with people many times that there was no doubt that Hillary was to the left of Obama on many issues...except for war, and that's what I voted on, even putting aside my feminism to do so, which was difficult.

I can only laugh at this drama from people who apparently were watching a different candidate during the primaries.

 

[Cancel7]

I think all left leaning Dems should vote for someone else. Then the Democratic party can see that they are NOT allies of the party and not just incrementally distance themselves, but adopt a truly centerist platform and make it obvious to independents and moderate dems that there is only one place to cast your vote.

That's not the left-leaning dems Soc. That's the irrational left. The same ones who voted for Nadar and refused to take any responsibility for Bush. It was everyone else's fault, but they didn't contribute, no.

Those irrational ideologes have swung exactly one election - the 2000 election. I think they've done all of the damage they're going to do, which was plenty. People caught up in the passionate emotions of themselves and those closest to them, always exaggerate their numbers. Because they really believe that a significant number must share those emotions. It's not always the case. We'll see.

Of course, what is most funny here is that Republicans line up to tell bac how much they "realy respect" him for this, which he always greets with an "Thank you my brother, that's why I'm not a dem". Meantime, back in the day, and the day wasn't too many days ago, bac was flaying care because Damo defended her against bac's "how dare you not support obama, you'll lose Roe!" onslaught...and bac said many times "Now they're taking comfort from Republicans" in response to this.

LOL

 

[DigitalDave]

* embracing the Supreme Court ruling that invalidated a Washington D.C ban on personal handguns and claimed that the Second Constitutional Amendment pertains to private citizens, not just organized state "militias."

I have to agree with him here. Good job for standing up for Gun Owners Obama!

* declaring his belief in the state's right to kill certain criminals, including child rapists.

I'm not a fan of state-sponsored killing, but child rapists tend to have a few screws loose and are a scary set of individuals. How do you get them to recover from this mindset? I would rather these people be used for experiments in nuerology.. lol

* becoming the first major party presidential candidate to bypass the public presidential financing system and to reject accompanying spending limits (violating his earlier pledge to work through the public system and accept those limits).

I do remember him flip-flopping on this. I think he went the better route anyways. If someone can run their campaign on donateed funds rather than tax money, good for them!

* supporting a refurbished spy bill that grants retroactive immunity to telephone corporations who collaborated with the White House in electronic surveillance of American citizens (violating Obama's earlier pledge to filibuster any surveillance legislation containing such immunity).

He was a total boner for this one. It's when I started reconsidering whether I should vote for him.

* appointing the corporate-friendly Wal-Mart apologist and Hamilton Project [3] economist Jason Furman as his economic policy director - something that stood in curious relation to his criticism ("I won't shop there") of Wal-Mart's low-wage anti-union practices when speaking to labor audiences.

Jason Furman is a DOUCHEBAG! I saw him debate McCain's Economic advisor and he made Obama look like a total hoser. Poor choice...

* increasing his declared support of "free trade," contradicting his campaign-trail criticism of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).

Yeah, I can't get a real good feel on this one. What's he mean by 'Free Trade'? NAFTA isn't free trade!

* "tweaking" his claim that he would meet with Iran's president (he added new and more restrictive conditions).

Ehhh, not a big deal to me. I liked the fact he was ballsy enough to say he'd do it without conditions, but, hell, he's a politician. He's gotta realize he'll get creamed by these fear mongerers pretending that meeting with the guy means you give-in to whatever the guy says.

* embracing (in a speech to the powerful pro-Israel lobby American Israel Public Affairs Committee - AIPAC) Bush-McCain rhetoric on the supposed Iranian nuclear threat and promising to do "anything" to protect the nuclear occupation and apartheid state of Israel from Iran (a nation previously attacked by Israel).

Politician speak comes out again. He should have said 'everything I can' instead of 'anything'. But he's gotta make those pro-Isreal people happy, right? Makes for a great YouTube video to see everyone cheering him on.

* calling (in his AIPAC speech) for an "undivided" Israel-run Jerusalem despite the fact that no government on the planet (and not even the Bush administration) supports Israeli's right to annex that UN-designated international city.

Yeah, that's kind of silly.

* making bolder Iraq "withdrawal" statements indicating that an Obama administration would not leave Iraq.

Well, he's not running for the Democratic ticket now, he's running for President against a guy that say's he'll follow Osama to the gates of hell. That's some strong words right there, he must really hate Osama. We need an angry man in office... right!?

Ehh, I think he's got to acknowledge that we are already in there and we need to at least attempt to make a clean withdrawal without too much bloodshed. Dispite what I feel on this issue (get the fuck out now), I don't think it's easy for a presidential candidate to defend that position, but I'm fully willing to say 'Fuck Iraq'. President's have to pretend we are going to try to right the wrongs, I really don't think we can though.

* vocally supporting a major part of the Republican agenda: the granting of public money to private religious organizations to provide social services.

The argument is that private institutions are run better. But, as soon as a private instituion picks up public funds they start to be run just as inefficient. The republican arguement for this is incomplete and doesn't think long term. They just want to fix the system now.

* endorsing the conservative white male Blue Dog Democratic Congressman John Barrow (D-GA) over the progressive black female challenger Regina Thomas in a July 15 primary [4].

I didn't pay attention to this enough. I still don't care enough to pay attention to it.. lol

* flip-flopping on energy policy by calling for increased domestic and offshore oil drilling after it became clear that McCain was getting traction with voters by calling for such environmentally insensitive drilling."

They made fun of Obama so bad for his 'tire-gauge' comments. It really put a damper on his momentum. It's something I would have heard him say and agreed with him on, but in reality, it's not a long-term solution. I don't think he thought it was either, but they played him on this one. He had to move on this or he would have lost this election.

 

[blackascoal]

You're way better than everyone, and your badge is in the mail.

 

[blackascoal]

I've already pointed out to you on pretty much every single one of the points made above why you're wrong. I'm not going to bother going through them again. Suffice it to say that the list is full of gross exaggerations, simplifications and distortions. Some of it is accurate, but most of it is shit.

You basically want Obama to be a guy that can't win a general election or even a fucking Democratic primary. You basically want Denis Kucinich, which is fine. But you should recognize that such a person will never be president. Ever.

You're way brighter than that ..

You seem to believe that issues don't matter and no matter what position Obama takes I should just bend over and take it.

He was swept into the nomination by the antiwar, anti-Bush, anti-wire tapping, anti-off-shore drilling, anti-kiss-Israel's ass constituency .. and I was one of them who not only voted for him but sent him money.

AND .. don't look now but democrats don't know how to win a general election all by themselves .. AND, I'm not a democrat and have NO loyalty or commitment to that party of centrists .. who don't know how to win a fucking election. How many have they won in the last fucking 40 years?

I knew Kuchinch was never going to be president and I said so .. just as I know McKinney will never be president. However, I do not carry the weight of America with my vote. I vote for candidates I support because they support the ISSUES I believe in. If that candidate loses, so be it, but I will not have supported evil, even in its lessor version.

Obama has completely abandoned the forces that swept him into the nomination and he assumes that they are going to vote for him no matter what he does .. like you. Someday really like to hear your defense of government wire-tapping and unnecessary war .. but I have no defense for either of them, THUS I don't support candidates who believe in them.

I'm having a real difficult time understanding why this is so hard for you to comprehend.

 

[Topspin]

it's one poll and 5%, Obama has lead all the way. There is a little Obama fatigue right now. He'll be back in the lead in no time. He wins big in Nov.

 

[Topspin]

I do think his warhawking on Afghanistan is losing some antiwar crowd and the anti drilling nonsense is losing him millions of regular centrist americans.

 

[Epicurus]

I do think his warhawking on Afghanistan is losing some antiwar crowd and the anti drilling nonsense is losing him millions of regular centrist americans.

QFT

 

[blackascoal]

"You basically want Obama to be a guy that can't win a general election or even a fucking Democratic primary. You basically want Denis Kucinich, which is fine. But you should recognize that such a person will never be president. Ever."

Mega-ditto's on that one. Obama is getting a pretty rough treatment from many on the left right now, simply because of the high expectations & excitement he initially created. Now that people are coming to terms with the fact that he's got some regular ol' politician in him, the reaction to that is much more that it would be for anyone else that was in the Dem field, and certainly much more than anything McCain is getting.

Wrong my brother .. unless your perception of a "regular ol' politician" is one who abandons nearly everything he said getting nominated.

Obama supporters are desperately searching for a strawman. Blame anything but Obama himself. It's racism .. RACISM is the problem .. although millions and millions and millions of white people swept his ass into the nomination.

Now white people are the problem .. but not a single word about ISSUES.

Not one word about his flip-flopping on critical positions .. just bend over and take it.

Yet democrats speak down to republicans as if endowed with all-knowing brilliance.

If you support wire-tapping and war .. then what the fuck is all the Bush-bashing about?

 

[Topspin]

word

 

[Cancel7]

I do think his warhawking on Afghanistan is losing some antiwar crowd and the anti drilling nonsense is losing him millions of regular centrist americans.

...not to mention nearly all of the oil-whore vote over at Chevron.

 

[blackascoal]

That's not the left-leaning dems Soc. That's the irrational left. The same ones who voted for Nadar and refused to take any responsibility for Bush. It was everyone else's fault, but they didn't contribute, no.

Those irrational ideologes have swung exactly one election - the 2000 election. I think they've done all of the damage they're going to do, which was plenty. People caught up in the passionate emotions of themselves and those closest to them, always exaggerate their numbers. Because they really believe that a significant number must share those emotions. It's not always the case. We'll see.

Of course, what is most funny here is that Republicans line up to tell bac how much they "realy respect" him for this, which he always greets with an "Thank you my brother, that's why I'm not a dem". Meantime, back in the day, and the day wasn't too many days ago, bac was flaying care because Damo defended her against bac's "how dare you not support obama, you'll lose Roe!" onslaught...and bac said many times "Now they're taking comfort from Republicans" in response to this.

LOL

Excuse me .. hate to break in on your conversation .. but I'm not a democrat .. you are. I have no alligences to the Democratic Party .. you do.

I vote my conscience .. period.

If you've been reading my posts .. and you have .. since I've been here it should be no surprise to you that I criticize BOTH political parties and the American people.

I don't take comfort from republicans and republicans find no comfort in me, I respond to comments from individuals.

 

[blackascoal]

I think all left leaning Dems should vote for someone else. Then the Democratic party can see that they are NOT allies of the party and not just incrementally distance themselves, but adopt a truly centerist platform and make it obvious to independents and moderate dems that there is only one place to cast your vote.

I agree with you .. obviously democrats don't need the left.

I bet republicans agree with you as well.

 

[Cancel7]

Excuse me .. hate to break in on your conversation .. but I'm not a democrat .. you are. I have no alligences to the Democratic Party .. you do.

I vote my conscience .. period.

If you've been reading my posts .. and you have .. since I've been here it should be no surprise to you that I criticize BOTH political parties and the American people.

I don't take comfort from republicans and republicans find no comfort in me, I respond to comments from individuals.

Listen bac, the fact is that if you compare your posts to Care with the posts you are making now, it's pretty funny, sorry, but that's how it is. Or even your posts to me when I argued that Hillary was to the left of Obama on many issues. And let's not forget about roe, back when roe mattered.

As far as my allegiance, let me tell you what I have an allegiance to: I have an allegiance to not being saddled with John McCain, who is possibly, if not probably, crazier than Bush, for the next four years. I also feel an allegiance to the unknown number (unknown now, let's hope we don't find out) of people who won't be killed if Obama takes office rather than McCain, even those right here in our own country who die, 18,000 of them a year, from lack of health care.

 

[blackascoal]

Listen bac, the fact is that if you compare your posts to Care with the posts you are making now, it's pretty funny, sorry, but that's how it is. Or even your posts to me when I argued that Hillary was to the left of Obama on many issues. And let's not forget about roe, back when roe mattered.

As far as my allegiance, let me tell you what I have an allegiance to: I have an allegiance to not being saddled with John McCain, who is possibly, if not probably, crazier than Bush, for the next four years. I also feel an allegiance to the unknown number (unknown now, let's hope we don't find out) of people who won't be killed if Obama takes office rather than McCain, even those right here in our own country who die, 18,000 of them a year, from lack of health care.

I have no problem whatsoever with whomever you support my friend.

Me .. I'm concerned about the countless Afghans and American troops he's going to get killed. I'm concerned that his over-the-top even further to the right than Bush or McCain ass-kissing to Israel is going to get more Palestinians killed and deepen the bullshit "war on terror" .. and I have little to ZERO confidence that he's going to do a damn thing about healthcare that the right doesn't want him to do. I have no confidence that he will do anything but exactly what Bush did on foreign policy.

And, I have no regrets about anything I said about Clinton to you or Care.

I was with him when he espoused sane policy .. when that stopped, I leave him to you.

 

[Topspin]

...not to mention nearly all of the oil-whore vote over at Chevron.

you know about whores, I'll give you that

 

[Cancel7]

I have no problem whatsoever with whomever you support my friend.

Me .. I'm concerned about the countless Afghans and American troops he's going to get killed. I'm concerned that his over-the-top even further to the right than Bush or McCain ass-kissing to Israel is going to get more Palestinians killed and deepen the bullshit "war on terror" .. and I have little to ZERO confidence that he's going to do a damn thing about healthcare that the right doesn't want him to do. I have no confidence that he will do anything but exactly what Bush did on foreign policy.

And, I have no regrets about anything I said about Clinton to you or Care.

I was with him when he espoused sane policy .. when that stopped, I leave him to you.

I don't believe you can win an election in the United States of America of today, running on a platform which includes withdrawing from Afghanistan. He didn't have to say he was going to add more troops to Afghanistan however. But, I am hopeful that there is only one way out of Afghanistan and that is to stabalize it real quick, declare victory, and get out. I am hopeful that is what he will do. I know for certain that this is not what McCain will do. So it is a moral quandry which we come down on two different sides of. This does not mean I am " bending over" for anyone, or "taking any indignity" since I do not perceive this as being about my dignity, but rather, I see it as being about what is more likely to save some real lives.

 

[Cancel3]

That's not the left-leaning dems Soc. That's the irrational left. The same ones who voted for Nadar and refused to take any responsibility for Bush. It was everyone else's fault, but they didn't contribute, no.

Those irrational ideologes have swung exactly one election - the 2000 election. I think they've done all of the damage they're going to do, which was plenty. People caught up in the passionate emotions of themselves and those closest to them, always exaggerate their numbers. Because they really believe that a significant number must share those emotions. It's not always the case. We'll see.

Of course, what is most funny here is that Republicans line up to tell bac how much they "realy respect" him for this, which he always greets with an "Thank you my brother, that's why I'm not a dem". Meantime, back in the day, and the day wasn't too many days ago, bac was flaying care because Damo defended her against bac's "how dare you not support obama, you'll lose Roe!" onslaught...and bac said many times "Now they're taking comfort from Republicans" in response to this.

LOL

As one of those who said he respected BAC, I hope you are not labelling me as a republican. I have been an independent my entire adult life. And, if you care to reread my posts, I have argued as often with conservatives as I have with liberals.

 

[Cancel7]

As one of those who said he respected BAC, I hope you are not labelling me as a republican. I have been an independent my entire adult life. And, if you care to reread my posts, I have argued as often with conservatives as I have with liberals.

No, and stop being so sensitive! It has been going on a lot lately, and I know for myself, if Republicans started lining up to tell me how much they "respect" me...I gotta start worrying.