Well, it's nice to see I have some responses to my thread, however, I am not seeing any real answer to my initial questions. Instead, I see what I expected, a complete misunderstanding of faith, followed by mis-characterizations and misconceptions. As I said, this is fundamentally why Atheists can't "be good for goodness sake", because to do that, you must first have understanding.
If you were born in the wilderness, and had no concept of what society was, or what society considered "good", how would you know how to behave "good"? Do you think it would just come naturally to you? You'd just know not to steal, not to murder, not to rape? You see, you would have no understanding these things were wrong or unacceptable. It is through understanding that we develop "good" behavior. Our "good" behavior is largely based on our personal experiences. Atheists (or non-religious) have no concept or understanding of faith, so it is impossible for them to respect the faith of others.
Here in this very thread, I am attacked for my personal faith. Not directly, but subtly, through attacking those with faith. Solitary says: I think being good without the threat of punishment or bribe means far more. I am a Spiritualist, I don't feel threatened by punishment, and don't feel I am being bribed. I can see where someone who doesn't understand the faith of others, thinking faith is based on threat of punishment or bribe, but through my understanding of my own faith, I know this is not so.
Solitary expounds: I can be good to my fellow man because I recognize them as my brethren and deserving of compassion. There is no motivation other than my being good to people. I am not trying to get something for it. Nor am I trying to avoid punishment.
If there is no motivation for it, why are you compelled to go to any trouble at all? What happens if you don't? If there is not a consequence, why does it matter? And who decided your behavior was indeed "good" or "bad"? You? That's kind of like a customer in a store deciding how much is fair to pay for merchandise, isn't it? The good old "honor system" of morals! Let's all be as "good" as we feel like being, that sounds like a plan!
Digital Dave attacks my logic, then adds: We don't need a cattle prod pokin' us in the ass to hold the door for a fellow human being, or drop a couple dollars into a red bucket, or want to donate a few hundred dollars to the Cysitc Fibrosis foundation to try and help find a cure for those that can't live a full life because they were born with a disease. It doesn't take a book to teach us warmth and compassion for other human beings, we just feel it.
But how do you "feel" it? What compels you to do these things you consider "good"? And are these the only examples of "good" you follow? Is it because you want to be seen as a civilized member of society and not just a cold heartless heathen? Is it out of a sense of guilt? What is it that makes you feel inclination to help your fellow man, or as Solitary so religiously put it, compassion for your fellow brethren?
As I said, I am a Spiritualist, I don't feel I have a "cattle prod poking me in the ass" at all, but I can understand how someone who doesn't understand the faith of others, would think that is the case. My motivation for being "good" is to maintain the harmony of nature around me. By exhibiting positive energy, I create an aura of positiveness around me, which defeats the negative forces, thus making my life pleasant. I can generate this positive energy by doing good deeds for others, by thinking positive thoughts, by helping those in need, etc. It has nothing to do with cattle prods, bribes, or threats.
Jarhead says: I dont murder steal rape ect, because I would not enjoy doing such a thing and because I know if I did it would ruin my life because of the guilt I would feel. I have never had the desire to murder anyone, I rarely have ever wished to steal something and rape would not be enjoyable for me. I could not live with myself if I did such a thing.
So, his motivation is revealed... guilt! But why does someone feel "guilty" in the first place? Isn't it because, deep down inside, we know what is right and wrong? In order to have these feelings, there must be some basis for them. Some foundational principle which compels us to "feel guilt" over the bad things we do, and thus, avoid doing them. People of faith have merely labeled this foundational belief, and attributed it to a specific entity other than self. Why do that? Well, because, when you base your foundational principle on something greater than yourself, it prevents you from acting selfishly. We are human, therefore we are subject to selfishness as part of the human condition. By basing our standards on something other than our self, we can avoid selfishness, and better live by the standards we expect for ourselves.
I am not one to judge, but I have met quite a few Atheists over the years, and one thing I have noticed is a common trait... they are generally more selfish than others. Now, I have not met all Atheists, and maybe it's just an attribute present in the particular Atheists I've met, but it seems to be consistent with Atheism, from my perspective. They are often self-centered people, who have little or no regard for the feelings of others. They tend to do what benefits them most, and disregard compassion for their "fellow brethren". I presume this is largely due to the fact they have no basis and foundation in faith, and their concept of "good" is based on their own individual philosophy.
Solitary reveals almost every attribute of "good" behavior found in people of faith, but can't really explain what compels him to live by these standards, other than... for the sake of it. Just because! That doesn't really answer the question. It doesn't explain why. His argument is essentially; "I can be my own keeper of morals!" But we can't! As humans, it is impossible for us to govern our own sense of morals and principles, and expect to maintain any standard greater than self-preservation. We will ultimately do what is best for us, and disregard "good" for our "fellow brethren" when push comes to shove. Unless we have a foundation for our beliefs and guidance in our actions, we are merely creatures with typical animal instinct, and we resort to that every time.
