liberals hate first amendment

[SmarterthanYou]

Straw man.

I'm responding to the comment that more guns might have meant fewer injuries in that situation.

and they might have. if 4 people in a room have a gun and 3 of those people target shoot on a weekly basis while the 4th is just an angry idiot, i'm on the side of the 3 people firing two shots at most and hitting the angry idiot.

if fact, if you'd like to see the 'straw man' debunked, I can point you to the statistics that police tend to injure innocent bystanders about 10 times more frequently than civilians engaged in a gun fight.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

Probably all of them. But situations like Virginia Tech are the exception, not the rule.

so you don't mind people dying by forcing them to play the odds?

In 2004, there were 29,569 gun deaths and 64,389 gun injuries in the U.S.

Cho killed 32 students. It's clear that people like Cho aren't responsible for all the gun violence in the country.

and yet, there are 300 million people in this country. if they were all like Cho, we'd all be dead by now. does that make sense to you?

 

[christiefan915]

no, but it's generally the best way.

the NRA does not say that ONLY a gun will protect a person, just that it's the most effective.

It's the opinion of a group with a vested interest, not an impartial source.

she already has, or haven't you been reading the news over the last few years?

I've been checking over the last two days and can't find any record of violent crime on the CCAC campuses. The school policy is no weapons.

Quite simply, no prohibited offensive weapons such as those described in the Crimes Code of Pennsylvania are permitted on any campus of CCAC or at property under control of CCAC (such as satellites and centers) without the express consent of the President of Community College of Allegheny County or campus Vice Presidents / Chief Executive Officers with one exception; sworn law enforcement officers on official duty.

Off duty sworn law enforcement officers must check with Security and obtain permission from the afore noted administration officials before bringing a weapon on campus.

A permit to carry a firearm, regardless by who issued, does not supersede the CCAC policy.

Anyone witnessing or suspecting a violation of this policy should notify Security immediately or a member of the staff or administration".


just out of curiosity, what do YOU think her reason for wanting to carry on campus is? and have you read those cases I posted yet?

Honestly, I don't know what her reason is. She's already licensed to carry a concealed weapon; she's just not permitted to bring it on campus. The school told her she has to follow policy if she wants to start a new group. That's common in any school I know of.

Brashier's pamphlets say that while college campuses are generally safe, there are assaults, rapes and murders. By barring students from carrying guns, college campuses are "supermarkets for would-be rapists and mass murders," she wrote, mentioning the Virginia Tech shooting and the February 2008 shooting at Northern Illinois University, where a gunman killed five people.

The Pittsburgh college has declined to comment in detail because its solicitor is reviewing it. However, it said Brashier has not faced disciplinary action. The college is encouraging her to follow CCAC rules for organizing a campus group, including having 10 students interested in joining and finding a faculty adviser.

I have another window open to read the cases. Still reading!

 

[christiefan915]

1) Read the 1st Amendment - pay particular attention to the part about right of assembly. Maybe you can point out the part that allows governing bodies to require permission first.

School policy says she needs to follow the rules to start a club. It's the same with all of our high schools or colleges. Nobody's taken every school in Pittsburgh to court for violating First Amendment rights. The ACLU would be all over this if there was a true violation.

"The Pittsburgh college has declined to comment in detail because its solicitor is reviewing it. However, it said Brashier has not faced disciplinary action. The college is encouraging her to follow CCAC rules for organizing a campus group, including having 10 students interested in joining and finding a faculty adviser."

"CCAC does not have any intention to limit the student's involvement in the group or her ability to discuss her own political viewpoint," the statement said.

2) Try looking at college rape statistics. (You did notice that the person in question advocating CCW is female?)

CCAC is a safe school. I couldn't find a record of any violent crime, not just rape. Are you saying the probability of being raped is greater for students on campus than for women in the general population?

<snip>

 

[SmarterthanYou]

It's the opinion of a group with a vested interest, not an impartial source.

ok, maybe you've been mislead in to believing that the NRA "gun lobby" is a front for gun manufacturers and sellers. The truth is that the NRA is a group comprised of over 4 million members. 4 million people, nearly all who vote. Why is it so powerful? because it is one of the largest membered groups out there. So when you slam the NRA, you're literally talking about over 4 million american citizens.

vested interest? yes, the vested interest of 4 million people who wish to exercise their 2nd Amendment right to bear arms.

impartial? of course not. but that's irrelevant.

 

[christiefan915]

western pennsylvania is not liberal. everything east is.

so nobody on campus should ever put together a group to try to change any college policy?

by the time police got there, the bad guy would already be dead or wounded. it would be easy. you're also going off of the stupid assumption that police are highly trained ninjas with a gun. They are not. Most officers qualify once a year, sometimes twice. that is it.

was she allowed to talk about her desire to have the college change policy? no, therefore her first amendment rights were violated.

1. Actually, Allegheny Co. and some of the surrounding counties are Dem strongholds. Pittsburgh hasn't had a Republican mayor since 1936. There's a joke: what's between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia? and the answer is: Mississippi.

2. It's what the school asked her to do.

"The college is encouraging her to follow CCAC rules for organizing a campus group, including having 10 students interested in joining and finding a faculty adviser."

3. Nobody said anything about ninjas but the police are trained to shoot. Again, I can't find any record of violent crime on CCAC campuses.

 

[christiefan915]

NOW tell us this is not about free speech, you hypocritical totalitarian fucks.

She chose to enroll at this school. She chose to accept the school's procedures, policies, rules and limitations when she enrolled. The school's policy on organizing is below. She's not entitled to any special privileges, no matter what kind of group she's promoting.

The Pittsburgh college has declined to comment in detail because its solicitor is reviewing it. However, it said Brashier has not faced disciplinary action. The college is encouraging her to follow CCAC rules for organizing a campus group, including having 10 students interested in joining and finding a faculty adviser.

"CCAC does not have any intention to limit the student's involvement in the group or her ability to discuss her own political viewpoint," the statement said.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

Shooting is not the only way to defend oneself against assault. Statistics show that there's a high number of rapes in the military. These women are trained to become expert with guns, yet not only do they not shoot, the perps get off with a slap on the wrist. Why doesn't the military encourage women soldiers to shoot their rapists?

"According to the Department of Defenses own statistics 74-85% of soldiers convicted of rape or sexual assault leave the military with honorable discharges (meaning the rape conviction does not appear on their record!). Only 2-3% of soldiers accused of rape are ever court marshaled. And only 5-6% of soldiers accused of domestic abused are ever court marshaled. In fact several multiple homicides have recently taken place on military bases that have not even been criminally prosecuted!"

You are truly naive.
It appears that your picture of the Military is that they ALWAYS carry their weapons, no matter what they're doing.

 

[Good Luck]

She chose to enroll at this school. She chose to accept the school's procedures, policies, rules and limitations when she enrolled. The school's policy on organizing is below. She's not entitled to any special privileges, no matter what kind of group she's promoting.

The Pittsburgh college has declined to comment in detail because its solicitor is reviewing it. However, it said Brashier has not faced disciplinary action. The college is encouraging her to follow CCAC rules for organizing a campus group, including having 10 students interested in joining and finding a faculty adviser.

"CCAC does not have any intention to limit the student's involvement in the group or her ability to discuss her own political viewpoint," the statement said.

Yes, let's applaud the fact that it's simply college policy to make their students ask permission to organize and express their opinions.

And how is she supposed to organize - even under the rules of the college - unless she has the opportunity to let students know about the organization, say through PASSING OUT FLIERS? Except the college forbid her to pass out fliers to gain student interest, didn't they?


Nice to see how you totalitarians work to squelch opposing views while looking oh, so "reasonable". What a fucking load of crap. You think its fine to tramp all over the Constitution adding regulations and requirements to the right of assembly, and instructions for how to go about exercising your 1st Amendment rights.

And you hypocrites have the gall to label neocons "fascist".

 

[christiefan915]

Yes, let's applaud the fact that it's simply college policy to make their students ask permission to organize and express their opinions.

And how is she supposed to organize - even under the rules of the college - unless she has the opportunity to let students know about the organization, say through PASSING OUT FLIERS? Except the college forbid her to pass out fliers to gain student interest, didn't they?

Nice to see how you totalitarians work to squelch opposing views while looking oh, so "reasonable". What a fucking load of crap. You think its fine to tramp all over the Constitution adding regulations and requirements to the right of assembly, and instructions for how to go about exercising your 1st Amendment rights.

And you hypocrites have the gall to label neocons "fascist".

The hypocrite is this young woman, who's suddenly changed her story about what the school said to her.

Also, I went to the school's website and looked at the policy. She has to fill out an Application for Recognition , find a sponsor, and find ten students who would be interested in the club. It's not necessary to pass out fliers, just to speak to people and ask them to join. It's also not rocket science to read the rules and abide by them.

I thought conservatives would approve of following the rules to get what you want, but I guess I'm wrong in your case.

http://www.ccac.edu/default.aspx?id=137452

 

[christiefan915]

ok, maybe you've been mislead in to believing that the NRA "gun lobby" is a front for gun manufacturers and sellers. The truth is that the NRA is a group comprised of over 4 million members. 4 million people, nearly all who vote. Why is it so powerful? because it is one of the largest membered groups out there. So when you slam the NRA, you're literally talking about over 4 million american citizens.

vested interest? yes, the vested interest of 4 million people who wish to exercise their 2nd Amendment right to bear arms.

impartial? of course not. but that's irrelevant.

One of my kids went to an NRA training camp, and my father was once a member, but he, like GHWB, cancelled the membership when they put politics ahead of their mission to promote gun safety.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
1. When I was in college, any student group or organization had to go through a procedure to be officially recognized by the Student Gov't and the College Student administration board. Once recognized and created, this group could then advocate against school policy, bring up discussions to Student Gov't, and officially challenge college policy. By the information given so far, this kid was trying to by-pass the system.

2. There is nothing here to indicate that there is a on-going problem at the campus that would require students to be strapped on campus.

3. What makes a student with CCWP more immune depression, emotional arguments and relationships, drugs, alcohol and all the other trials and tribulations that accompany 4 years of learning and growing?

1) Read the 1st Amendment - pay particular attention to the part about right of assembly. Maybe you can point out the part that allows governing bodies to require permission first.

No one denied her the right to go before the Student gov't or Administrative hearings or whatever their version is, and voice her opinions/suggestions/request. What she DID was an attempted end run around a privated institutions rules and regulations regarding formation of student groups and advocacy regarding college administration rules/regulations. Oh, and this is an individual college, NOT the federal gov't.

2) Try looking at college rape statistics. (You did notice that the erson in question advocating CCW is female?) And do you know how many sexual assaults are done by registered students to other students? How are you to determine who is to have the gun prior to the attack? In other words, what makes you think the rapists wouldn't be the licensed CCWP? Last time I checked, owning a gun isn't an automatic conversion to a morally superior person.
3) Who said that CCW would address any of those issues? Can you say "strawman"?

Jeez, you can't be this dense! I'm pointing to how these issues can be drastically and tragically exacerbated with the injection of firearms into the scene. Other than that, just what in the hell is the purpose for proliferation of guns on campus as you advocate? You and your compadres build up the strawman of "what if", or you take the exception to the rule incident and parade it as proof for your insane advocacy. Of course, all one has to do is IGNORE the points I put forth and the reality of the emotional immaturity that is inherent in campus life to buy into your scenario.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
1. When I was in college, any student group or organization had to go through a procedure to be officially recognized by the Student Gov't and the College Student administration board. Once recognized and created, this group could then advocate against school policy, bring up discussions to Student Gov't, and officially challenge college policy. By the information given so far, this kid was trying to by-pass the system.

2. There is nothing here to indicate that there is a on-going problem at the campus that would require students to be strapped on campus.

3. What makes a student with CCWP more immune depression, emotional arguments and relationships, drugs, alcohol and all the other trials and tribulations that accompany 4 years of learning and growing?

If these college campus rules were due to the immaturity of the students, then why are 50 year old professors with CCWs not allowed to carry on campus? This is about trying to create another Gun Free Zone. Which translates to a Unarmed Victims Who Cannot Fight Back Zone.

50 year old profs are NOT trained cops! Period. Trained cops fuck up...what makes you think some ph.d. won't? And exactly how many times a year in every college/university campus throughout the country is there an incident where said prof is needed to shoot it out with criminals? And what are the exact circumstances of those events that would require a college prof. to be strapped? I've said this before and I'll say it again.......given all the crap that happens on college campuses between students WITHOUT ALCOHOL AND GUNS would be exponentially worse with the introduction to CCWP. The LAST thing we need is some Prof. with a hero complex over-reacting to a campus brawl. Colleges have security with immediate communication to local law enforcement (who have guns). If the Prof. is so paranoid without being strapped, then quit and go hide in a bunker.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

One of my kids went to an NRA training camp, and my father was once a member, but he, like GHWB, cancelled the membership when they put politics ahead of their mission to promote gun safety.

from what I remember of that time period, politics was put ahead of gun safety because the democrats decided that 'safety' wasn't their mission anymore and disarmament was. If it's anyones fault, blame schumer and pelosi.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

50 year old profs are NOT trained cops! Period. Trained cops fuck up...what makes you think some ph.d. won't?

do you consider a police officer superior to you?

 

[Minister of Truth]

Again, I can't find any record of violent crime on CCAC campuses.

So, she just has to wait for a Virginia Tech moment and then she's got your permission?

 

[Taichiliberal]

do you consider a police officer superior to you?

Dont' waste time and space with such silly dodges......I don't expect anyone not trained in fighting to get into the ring with a trained boxer. Nor do I expect some college prof. to react to a situation like a trained cop. Again, you cannot justify the idiocy or introducing weapons into a college environment simply because of what "might happen" while overlooking the problems that already exist there without guns that would escalate to deadly scenarios if guns were introduced.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

Dont' waste time and space with such silly dodges......I don't expect anyone not trained in fighting to get into the ring with a trained boxer. Nor do I expect some college prof. to react to a situation like a trained cop. Again, you cannot justify the idiocy or introducing weapons into a college environment simply because of what "might happen" while overlooking the problems that already exist there without guns that would escalate to deadly scenarios if guns were introduced.

but what your uneducated brain seems to ignore is that many civilians also train with weapons, and in SOME states, the concealed handgun licensing requirements exceed that of law enforcement requirements.

so answer the question, because its not a dodge, are police superior to you?

mind you, I expect a ridiculous answer considering your perceived frailties in american citizens who are not police officers.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
1. When I was in college, any student group or organization had to go through a procedure to be officially recognized by the Student Gov't and the College Student administration board. Once recognized and created, this group could then advocate against school policy, bring up discussions to Student Gov't, and officially challenge college policy. By the information given so far, this kid was trying to by-pass the system.

2. There is nothing here to indicate that there is a on-going problem at the campus that would require students to be strapped on campus.

3. What makes a student with CCWP more immune depression, emotional arguments and relationships, drugs, alcohol and all the other trials and tribulations that accompany 4 years of learning and growing?



Jeez, you can't be this dense! I'm pointing to how these issues can be drastically and tragically exacerbated with the injection of firearms into the scene. Other than that, just what in the hell is the purpose for proliferation of guns on campus as you advocate? You and your compadres build up the strawman of "what if", or you take the exception to the rule incident and parade it as proof for your insane advocacy. Of course, all one has to do is IGNORE the points I put forth and the reality of the emotional immaturity that is inherent in campus life to buy into your scenario.

There is a huge "proliferation" of firearms in Arizona, so would you care to explain why your premise hasn't come to pass in Arizona??

 

[USFREEDOM911]

do you consider a police officer superior to you?

Maybe we should just ban all cops from carrying firearms, seeing as how trained ones can "fuck up".