Most EVs Cost More to Drive Than Their Gas-Powered Rivals:

[gfm7175]

RSSDMIT

Gibberish.

ROFLMAO.. I'm sooooooo stupid

Yes, you are.

Clearly I have no clue as to how electricity or electronics work.

Correct you are!

The solar expert who sold me my panels told me that they are rated to have a 10% loss over 25 years.

Yes, I know that's what the snake-oil salesman told you.

I'll bet they are still producing at least 85% of what they did for the average of the first 3 years.

How would you even know if they were or not? You don't keep system performance records, and you don't even maintain your panel system.

That would be only a 5% loss compared to what was expected.

Yes, I know that's what the snake-oil salesman told you.

Care to bet $1,000,000 on your claim?

Nah. You wouldn't pay up.

I didn't think so.

Flex them internet muscles!

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Sounds good to me. I enjoy this game very much.


If you weren't a complete idiot, you would have instantly realized and been honest about the fact that the statement "an annual bill of $1,200" is simply another way of expressing the end result of making $100/month payments for twelve months.

I see... so what one month bond was paying 5% annual interest in 2018?
I don't think you understand how bonds work. If you buy a one year bond paying 5% and then sell it one month later, you don't get the principal and a 5% annualized return.

RAAA. (repetitive assertion already addressed)

RSSDMIT

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

I've noticed this as well... He's more than once changed the cost of his system, the life expectancy of his system, and other erroneous calculations that he's done. He's all over the place. Typical for someone who doesn't wish to be honest.

I have never once changed the cost of my system. The only changes are a hypothetical if I had received no subsidies.

Let's go back and look at the start of this and see how it is you that is confused.

I always love your silly math that has nothing to do with reality.

Personal anecdote
My panels cost $22,000 installed which also included a new 200 amp service panel.
They produced an average of 8.4 mWh per year for the last 2 years.
At .1409 per kWh, the panels pay for themselves in a little over 18 years with no subsidies and no inflation
If we add in inflation at 2% per year to the electric cost the panels pay for themselves in 16 years.

You do know what "breaking even" means, don't you?

I argued that if I didn't include the subsidies then the panels would "break even" in 18 years.

Into the Night pointed out I didn't include the subsidies and I agreed with him.

I didn't include the subsidies in my calculations. If you don't understand simple math, then there is no hope for you.
The claim was made that solar panels could never break even if they weren't subsidized. I showed that that is false. Whether they produce power at night is irrelevant to the cost calculations.

As a subsidized panel they pay for themselves in 10 years. Unsubsidized they pay for themselves in 16 years.

I wonder how panels work if there are trees over them to drop sap on them? Hmmm.. It seems your strawman is only full of shit at this point.

So we have gone from solar panels can't break even
to
solar panels can't compete with an investment
to
I fell for a scam because you forgot that I received a tax credit and other payments.

It seems to be you that is not being honest in this discussion as you keep moving the goal posts.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Gibberish.


Yes, you are.


Correct you are!


Yes, I know that's what the snake-oil salesman told you.


How would you even know if they were or not? You don't keep system performance records, and you don't even maintain your panel system.


Yes, I know that's what the snake-oil salesman told you.


Nah. You wouldn't pay up.


Flex them internet muscles!

Unable to make arguments against what I posted so you resort to attacking me. How absolutely juvenile of you. Are you in your second childhood?

 

[IBDaMann]

I guess we are going to keep playing the IBDaMann is a complete idiot game.

I'm happy to play. When do we start?

1. The cost of my system was $22,000 and then I got a $5,720 tax credit and $500 a month producer payment for 10 years as well as no monthly electric bill. (I also produce about 20% more than I use and get paid for that as well.)

I find it difficult to believe that you can write a check for $22,000 and receive $11,720 per year for ten years and then $5,720 for every year thereafter. I'm calling boooooolsch't.

Nonetheless, an investment that averages 12.39% ROI turns $22,000 into $494,516.00 over 20 years. You can easily make this kind of ROI in real estate, for example. Careful portfolio management can also render the same.

2. No. The investment needs to have a return that is 5% over inflation. If the investment has 8% interest and inflation is 3% the result will be the same.
3. Inflation doesn't matter if it's 0 or 20% as long as the return is 5% over inflation.

Is this what the salesman told you? This statement makes inflation a function of an investment's ROI. Didn't you call booooooolsch't on that? Don't link ROI and inflation.

Congratulations. You have just had your electricity turned off for non-payment if you are making annual payments at the end of the year.

You have forgotten the rules of the game. You are supposed to be a financial genius, not a moron who is too stupid to understand simplification, especially when it is the simplification you requested be used:

That means we are withdrawing $1200 each year to pay for that years electricity.

The referee just gave you a yellow card.

 

[IBDaMann]

So we have gone from solar panels can't break even to solar panels can't compete with an investment to I fell for a scam because you forgot that I received a tax credit and other payments.

I don't know about any of that, I just know that we went from
1. you not thanking me for correcting your misunderstanding of Time Value of Money and teaching you about Opportunity Costs and Net Present Value, to
2. you not thanking me for explaining how you really need to consider other investment opportunities whenever you consider any single particular opportunity, to
3. you not thanking me for explaining to you how to make estimates for apples-to-apples comparisons when considering other investment opportunities, using your own values and your own math, to
4. your bizarre denial of the S&P 500 Index's ROI average of 12.39% over ten years, as your rationale for calling 12.39% an unreasonable estimate for consideration purposes regarding the S&P 500 Index ROI, to
5. your system's ROI growing in every post in a desperate attempt to make it appear profitable, to the point that your system now gets tax breaks and other benefits that exceed any offered in any State, to
6. you not understanding the use of your own simplification.

Look, you don't have to thank me, and I'll still be here for you when you have financial questions, because that's just the kind of stand-up guy I am. Don't be afraid to come to me with the hard stuff.

 

[gfm7175]

I see...

No you don't.

It's okay to not understand something though. This is where you ask questions (and listen, process, comprehend, keep your mouth shut) so that people who know more than you do can teach you.

so what one month bond was paying 5% annual interest in 2018?

Continued special pleading...

I don't think you understand how bonds work. If you buy a one year bond paying 5% and then sell it one month later, you don't get the principal and a 5% annualized return.

Continued fixation on bonds.

RSSDMIT

Continued gibberish.

 

[gfm7175]

I have never once changed the cost of my system. The only changes are a hypothetical if I had received no subsidies.

Liar.

Let's go back and look at the start of this and see how it is you that is confused.

Of course your errors are "my fault".

So we have gone from solar panels can't break even
to
solar panels can't compete with an investment
to
I fell for a scam because you forgot that I received a tax credit and other payments.

Nah. We're still at the point where you made erroneous math calculations that completely disregard maintenance of your system while special pleading away all investment opportunities that allow a person to come out far ahead monetarily if that person wouldn't've bothered with purchasing solar panels... Although, I guess there's no maintenance cost if you don't maintain your system... but then you aren't going to get a full life or optimal performance out of your system, and you still think that you are somehow going to without performing said maintenance.

It seems to be you that is not being honest in this discussion as you keep moving the goal posts.

Of course your actions are "my actions".

 

[gfm7175]

Unable to make arguments against what I posted so you resort to attacking me. How absolutely juvenile of you.

Nowadays, the victim card is only applicable if you are a liberal with a sufficiently dark skin tone or if you are a liberal with an active membership in the LGBTQLMNOP+ alphabet soup cult.

Are you in your second childhood?

What's a "second childhood"?

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

I'm happy to play. When do we start?


I find it difficult to believe that you can write a check for $22,000 and receive $11,720 per year for ten years and then $5,720 for every year thereafter. I'm calling boooooolsch't.

Error on my part on the $500 per month, it is $500 per year for 10 years. The tax credit is a one time credit. You should have been able to understand the meaning of "and" in the sentence considering how.

Nonetheless, an investment that averages 12.39% ROI turns $22,000 into $494,516.00 over 20 years. You can easily make this kind of ROI in real estate, for example. Careful portfolio management can also render the same.

You might want to check you math on that one. Even compounding hourly, you can't get close to that number with a $22,000 investment and an interest rate of 12.39%.

I want to know how you are going to pay your electric bill if you invest in real estate. Are you going to mortgage the real estate and pay interest on a loan? Are you going to sell 100 sq feet every month?
In order to be an apples to apples comparison, you have to pay your electric bill out of that $22,000 you invested.
Careful management of your portfolio is going to cost you 1-2% of your portfolio reducing your return.

Is this what the salesman told you? This statement makes inflation a function of an investment's ROI. Didn't you call booooooolsch't on that? Don't link ROI and inflation.

It's called real return. When comparing 2 scenarios to see which has a better outcome, where one is paying out on monthly basis and the other is investing on a monthly basis, real return can be used.
If I can buy something for $100 today or invest the money. It is better to buy today if interest rates are 1% and inflation is 2%. Next year I would have $101 and the item would cost $102. Real return is negative one percent.

You have forgotten the rules of the game. You are supposed to be a financial genius, not a moron who is too stupid to understand simplification, especially when it is the simplification you requested be used:

The rules of the game are you have to pay your monthly electric bill every month or you don't have electricity. In order to be an apples to apples comparison, the payment for the electricity is supposed to come out of the $22,000 you invested.

The referee just gave you a yellow card.

It's such a pretty card compared to your red card.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

I don't know about any of that, I just know that we went from
1. you not thanking me for correcting your misunderstanding of Time Value of Money and teaching you about Opportunity Costs and Net Present Value, to
2. you not thanking me for explaining how you really need to consider other investment opportunities whenever you consider any single particular opportunity, to
3. you not thanking me for explaining to you how to make estimates for apples-to-apples comparisons when considering other investment opportunities, using your own values and your own math, to
4. your bizarre denial of the S&P 500 Index's ROI average of 12.39% over ten years, as your rationale for calling 12.39% an unreasonable estimate for consideration purposes regarding the S&P 500 Index ROI, to
5. your system's ROI growing in every post in a desperate attempt to make it appear profitable, to the point that your system now gets tax breaks and other benefits that exceed any offered in any State, to
6. you not understanding the use of your own simplification.

Look, you don't have to thank me, and I'll still be here for you when you have financial questions, because that's just the kind of stand-up guy I am. Don't be afraid to come to me with the hard stuff.

1. Thanks for nothing.
2. Thanks for trying to tell me that I shouldn't include all the numbers when calculating an opportunity cost. (You think I shouldn't include tax credits and producer payments.)
3. Thanks for telling me I should use unrealistic expectations when considering investments. (Can I expect my solar panels to produce at night since we are using unrealistic expectations?)
4. Thanks for telling me that something that has happened historically less than 10% of the time is 100% guaranteed to happen in the future. I never denied the return on the previous 10 years. I said expecting it to continue for the next 20 is stupid.
5. My system's ROI hasn't grown a bit since this all started with the hypothetical which didn't include the tax credit and
6. ROFLMAO. Run your numbers again. You can't invest $22,000 at 12.93% and have it grow into $494,516.00 over 20 years

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

No you don't.

It's okay to not understand something though. This is where you ask questions (and listen, process, comprehend, keep your mouth shut) so that people who know more than you do can teach you.


Continued special pleading...


Continued fixation on bonds.


Continued gibberish.

RSSDMIT

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Liar.


Of course your errors are "my fault".


Nah. We're still at the point where you made erroneous math calculations that completely disregard maintenance of your system while special pleading away all investment opportunities that allow a person to come out far ahead monetarily if that person wouldn't've bothered with purchasing solar panels... Although, I guess there's no maintenance cost if you don't maintain your system... but then you aren't going to get a full life or optimal performance out of your system, and you still think that you are somehow going to without performing said maintenance.


Of course your actions are "my actions".

RSSDMIT

 

[gfm7175]

RSSDMIT

Gibberish.

 

[gfm7175]

RSSDMIT

Gibberish.

 

[gfm7175]

I want to know how you are going to pay your electric bill if you invest in real estate. Are you going to mortgage the real estate and pay interest on a loan? Are you going to sell 100 sq feet every month?

As you've been told countless times, it gets paid via the existence of a (likely bi-weekly) paycheck. That's the advantage of paying electric bills on a monthly basis rather than on a 100% pre-paid basis. This advantage exists, and it is irrational to ignore it because it hurts your feelings.

 

[IBDaMann]

You should have been able to understand the meaning of "and" in the sentence considering how.

I see. It's not your fault for mistyping since it was my responsibility to effectively read your mind. My bad.

You might want to check you math on that one.

Yes I do. Good catch. Thank you for spotting that. My error was computing 1.1239*20 instead of 1.1239^20. The correct end value is $227,497 and not the $494,516.00 figure I previously listed. Thanks again.

I want to know how you are going to pay your electric bill if you invest in real estate.

With money in a different account. Remember, the topic is comparing investment options.

In order to be an apples to apples comparison, you have to pay your electric bill out of that $22,000 you invested.

That's incorrect. You simply calculate the Net Present Value for each investment using the same projected inflation rate.

Careful management of your portfolio is going to cost you 1-2% of your portfolio reducing your return.

It won't cost me anything. My internet connectivity is a sunk cost that does not get factored into any investment opportunity (unless I want it to for some reason).

It's called real return.

All return is real return. There is no such thing as imaginary return, except perhaps Safemoon "reflections."

When comparing 2 scenarios to see which has a better outcome, ...

In all cases, you simply calculate the Net Present Value for each investment using the same projected inflation rate.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

I see. It's not your fault for mistyping since it was my responsibility to effectively read your mind. My bad.

So you aren't going to be gracious like I was with your error. OK.

Yes I do. Good catch. Thank you for spotting that. My error was computing 1.1239*20 instead of 1.1239^20. The correct end value is $227,497 and not the $494,516.00 figure I previously listed. Thanks again.

You're welcome.

With money in a different account. Remember, the topic is comparing investment options.

The topic is paying for electricity over time vs paying a lump sum for solar panels.
If you don't pay for your electricity then you aren't comparing apples to apples.

That's incorrect. You simply calculate the Net Present Value for each investment using the same projected inflation rate.

Cheating seems to be all you can do when it comes to this.
In once scenario $22,000 was used to pay for 20-25 years of electricity and in the other scenario, you don't use any of that money to pay for electricity.
The topic is paying for electricity over time vs paying a lump sum for solar panels. In order to be a valid comparison, both scenarios have to pay for the electricity.

It won't cost me anything. My internet connectivity is a sunk cost that does not get factored into any investment opportunity (unless I want it to for some reason).

It does cost you money. With $22,000 you aren't buying all 500 of the stocks in the S&P so you clearly won't be matching the growth of the S&P. If you buy an ETF it has a management fee of about .09% - .18%. If you buy mutual funds that are actively managed they will cost 1-2% or more.

You have to understand the market return is based on holding the stocks at the end of day since it doesn't factor in the cost or price variation that happens during the day.
If you buy a stock on Dec 31 for $100 and it closes at $101, you will beat the market's declared rate of return for that stock the next year. If you buy the stock for $101 on Dec 31 and it closes at $100 then you will not beat the market's declared rate of return for the next year.
Then you have to understand that paying zero for commissions is not really the best way to maximize your return and it does cost you when making trades because you are likely not getting the best price.

It is interesting that you think you can buy, sell and own real estate with no cost to you. Can you explain that to us? We could all use a good laugh.

All return is real return. There is no such thing as imaginary return, except perhaps Safemoon "reflections."

Thanks for the laugh.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/realrateofreturn.asp
https://www.wallstreetmojo.com/real-rate-of-return-formula/

In all cases, you simply calculate the Net Present Value for each investment using the same projected inflation rate.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

As long as you use the same inflation rate then you are calculating the same real return.
Let me know if you have any other stupid comments to make.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

As you've been told countless times, it gets paid via the existence of a (likely bi-weekly) paycheck. That's the advantage of paying electric bills on a monthly basis rather than on a 100% pre-paid basis. This advantage exists, and it is irrational to ignore it because it hurts your feelings.

And has been explained to you, if the money from that paycheck is invested instead of paying for electricity, the amount of money you would have after 20 years is more if you buy solar panels.

Your denials are cute because they don't provide any math. It's like you are a 3 year old.

Year 20 - S&P up 18.4%, inflation at 1.2%
You have $135,681.40 in your account. You pay $1803.25 for electricity out of pocket
I invest $1803.25 and have $182,020.00 in my account while paying zero for electricity


At year 20, you have paid $29,892.95 for electricity and have $135,681.40 in savings.
I have $182,020 in savings and paid $11,280 for my solar panels.
Who got scammed? It seems to be you because it looks like I have well over $60,000 more than you do based on the numbers.

Let me know when you have put the following 2 formulas in an excel spreadsheet and seen the results.

=FV(.05/12,240,100,-22000)
=FV(.05/12,240,-100)-22000

I challenge everyone to put those formulas in excel.
The first one is $22,000 invested and 100 taken out for electric payment for 240 months.
The second one is 100 month invested for 240 months less the 22,000 paid for solar panels.

The results are if you invest the money and pay out $100 per month after 20 year you will have $18,574.72 but if you buy solar panels and invest $100 a month you will have $19,103.37.

The real question is, are you going to stand by your statement that I can select any interest rate that I think is reasonable?

 

[gfm7175]

And has been explained to you, if the money from that paycheck is invested instead of paying for electricity, the amount of money you would have after 20 years is more if you buy solar panels.

Your denials are cute because they don't provide any math. It's like you are a 3 year old.

Continued repetition of already refuted positions.