FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
Basically, we should take every liberal position, brand it moderate, and pass it all. It's what conservatives did.
MoveOn.org
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Epicurus
Reasonable
Well I think that determining whether the country is center right or not through issue polls would be even harder.
How many issues would you have to consider? What margins are decisive? Are some issues more liberal/conservative than other issues? Example: Does supporting gay marriage pull you farther left than supporting progressive taxation? How much farther?
I think it is just as difficult to get a wholistic view through looking at a lot of issue polls.
How many issues would you have to consider? What margins are decisive? Are some issues more liberal/conservative than other issues? Example: Does supporting gay marriage pull you farther left than supporting progressive taxation? How much farther?
I think it is just as difficult to get a wholistic view through looking at a lot of issue polls.
Epicurus
Reasonable
Like Dung said, they're subjective terms anyway, to the point of being almost useless in assessing someone's issue positions.
Self identification does affect voting patterns though, which is why I consider it more important than looking at issue polls. Not everyone is nearly as informed as we are, and a lot of them tend to vote based on their own self-identification than on policy positions.
but dh is correct - it doesn't matter what people call themselves. let's look at the positions they support. because with the right president, if we get those policies, which the majority of americans show strong support for, then that's all any liberal cares about. you can call it whatever you want to.
further, the right waged a very successful, decades-long marketing campaign against the word "liberal". so it worked, big deal? it's the word people are reacting against. that can be changed. that's a minor point right now. where do they stand on the issues - that's important.
Speaking of which, I just signed up to get my free "Yes we Did" sticker from Moveon.org this morning!
Good times.
ohhh, i want one! i'll sign up later.
C
Cancel3
Guest
The fact that MoveOn.Org has more members than the NRA is surprising to me.
I think that the NRA's focus is much narrower, so I think the comparison is only somewhat justified.
I think where MoveOn.Org goes from here will be what tells the tale. Much of its energy has been spent fighting Bush and exposing the administration's failings.
Whether we are a right or left oriented nation is impossible to judge. The individual issues and candidates are what will be interesting to watch.
I think that the NRA's focus is much narrower, so I think the comparison is only somewhat justified.
I think where MoveOn.Org goes from here will be what tells the tale. Much of its energy has been spent fighting Bush and exposing the administration's failings.
Whether we are a right or left oriented nation is impossible to judge. The individual issues and candidates are what will be interesting to watch.
klaatu
Fusionist
Very Good!
Eric Alterman - Even before Obama won, the MSM was doing the conservatives' work for them, arguing that he had better not try to do anything he promised to do because America was a "center-right nation." We noted that the other day that Tom Brokaw was so enamored of the idea, he made an argument that amounted to a belief of "one acre, one vote" -- which is appropriate to a fellow who lives in a cabin in Montana far, far away from any of his neighbors but downright scary in a guy who hosts Meet the Press. Anyway, here, in its most pristine form, from The Washington Post: House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) appears secure in his spot. He bucks up the troops in a Post op-ed: "Recommitting ourselves to [party] principles means two things: vigorously fighting a far-left agenda that is out of step with the wishes of the vast majority of Americans and, more important, promoting superior Republican alternatives that prove that we offer a better vision for our country's future," Boehner writes. "America is still a center-right country. This election was neither a referendum in favor of the left's approach to key issues nor a mandate for big government."
And now, the truth -- I know that's redundant -- from Why We're Liberals:
As the political scientist Drew Westen aptly observes, the word liberal for most Americans implies "elite, tax and spend, out of touch," and "Massachusetts."52 And yet the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press in Washington, D.C., in conducting an extensive set of opinion polls over the past few decades, has demonstrated a decided trend toward increasingly "liberal" positions, by almost any definition. To offer just a few examples of this liberal-in-all-but-name attitude regarding economic and welfare policy, according to the 2006 survey, released in March 2007, roughly 70 percent of respondents believe that the government has a responsibility "to take care of people who can't take care of themselves" -- up from 61 percent in 2002. The number saying that the government should guarantee "every citizen enough to eat and a place to sleep" has increased by a similar margin over the past five years (from 63 percent to 69 percent). Two-thirds of the public (66 percent) -- including a majority of those who say they would prefer a smaller government (57 percent) -- favor government funded health insurance for all citizens. Most people also believe that the nation's corporations are too powerful and fail to strike a fair balance between profits and the public interest. In addition, nearly two-thirds (65 percent) say corporate profits are too high, about the same number who say that "labor unions are necessary to protect the working person" (68 percent). When it comes to the environment, a large majority (83 percent) supports stricter laws and regulations to protect the environment, while 69 percent agree that "we should put more emphasis on fuel conservation than on developing new oil supplies," and fully 60 percent of people questioned say they would "be willing to pay higher prices in order to protect the environment." Regarding so-called social issues, only 28 percent of respondents agree that school boards should have the right to fire teachers who are known to be homosexual, while 66 percent disagree. A 56 percent majority opposes making it more difficult for a woman to get an abortion, while 35 percent favor this position.53 These findings reinforce previous polls like that in 2004 by NPR, the Kaiser Family Foundation, and Harvard University, which asked voters whether "the federal government should fund sex education programs that have 'abstaining from sexual activity' as their only purpose" or if "the money should be used to fund more comprehensive sex education programs that include information on how to obtain and use condoms and other contraceptives." The condom/contraceptive option won the day by a margin of 67 to 30 percent. Unsurprisingly, a similar number (65 percent) said they worried that refusing to provide teens with good information about contraception might lead to unsafe sex, while only 28 percent were more concerned that such information might encourage teens to have sex.54
Contrary to conventional wisdom, Americans even tend to side with liberals rather than conservatives in their attitudes toward religion. According to a 2006 study sponsored by the Faith and Progressive Policy Initiative of the Center for American Progress and conducted by the firm Financial Dynamism, 67 percent of voters believe that religious freedom is a "critical" part of their image of America, compared to less than three in ten who believe the Judeo-Christian faith specifically is critical to this image. Only 20 percent of American voters approve of leaders using the political system to turn religious beliefs into action. In terms of the role that religious and moral teachings should play in public debate about key issues, American voters do not focus on the issues of abortion, gay marriage, and the kind of topics that so exercise conservative Christian leaders, but would prefer to see their churches lead on issues such as alleviating "poverty and hunger" (75 percent), "homelessness" (61 percent), "government corruption" (58 percent), "terrorism" (56 percent), "the environment" (54 percent), and "health care" (52 percent). Americans specifically reject the conservative Christian desire to suppress science in the service of religious dogma. Eighty percent of those questioned agree that "faith and science can and should coexist. We can respect our belief in God and our commitment to the dignity of every human life by using our scientific knowledge to help those who are sick or vulnerable." The same overwhelming number endorses the view that "stem cell research can be a force for moral good rather than a moral failing."
http://mediamatters.org/altercation/?f=h_column
And now, the truth -- I know that's redundant -- from Why We're Liberals:
As the political scientist Drew Westen aptly observes, the word liberal for most Americans implies "elite, tax and spend, out of touch," and "Massachusetts."52 And yet the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press in Washington, D.C., in conducting an extensive set of opinion polls over the past few decades, has demonstrated a decided trend toward increasingly "liberal" positions, by almost any definition. To offer just a few examples of this liberal-in-all-but-name attitude regarding economic and welfare policy, according to the 2006 survey, released in March 2007, roughly 70 percent of respondents believe that the government has a responsibility "to take care of people who can't take care of themselves" -- up from 61 percent in 2002. The number saying that the government should guarantee "every citizen enough to eat and a place to sleep" has increased by a similar margin over the past five years (from 63 percent to 69 percent). Two-thirds of the public (66 percent) -- including a majority of those who say they would prefer a smaller government (57 percent) -- favor government funded health insurance for all citizens. Most people also believe that the nation's corporations are too powerful and fail to strike a fair balance between profits and the public interest. In addition, nearly two-thirds (65 percent) say corporate profits are too high, about the same number who say that "labor unions are necessary to protect the working person" (68 percent). When it comes to the environment, a large majority (83 percent) supports stricter laws and regulations to protect the environment, while 69 percent agree that "we should put more emphasis on fuel conservation than on developing new oil supplies," and fully 60 percent of people questioned say they would "be willing to pay higher prices in order to protect the environment." Regarding so-called social issues, only 28 percent of respondents agree that school boards should have the right to fire teachers who are known to be homosexual, while 66 percent disagree. A 56 percent majority opposes making it more difficult for a woman to get an abortion, while 35 percent favor this position.53 These findings reinforce previous polls like that in 2004 by NPR, the Kaiser Family Foundation, and Harvard University, which asked voters whether "the federal government should fund sex education programs that have 'abstaining from sexual activity' as their only purpose" or if "the money should be used to fund more comprehensive sex education programs that include information on how to obtain and use condoms and other contraceptives." The condom/contraceptive option won the day by a margin of 67 to 30 percent. Unsurprisingly, a similar number (65 percent) said they worried that refusing to provide teens with good information about contraception might lead to unsafe sex, while only 28 percent were more concerned that such information might encourage teens to have sex.54
Contrary to conventional wisdom, Americans even tend to side with liberals rather than conservatives in their attitudes toward religion. According to a 2006 study sponsored by the Faith and Progressive Policy Initiative of the Center for American Progress and conducted by the firm Financial Dynamism, 67 percent of voters believe that religious freedom is a "critical" part of their image of America, compared to less than three in ten who believe the Judeo-Christian faith specifically is critical to this image. Only 20 percent of American voters approve of leaders using the political system to turn religious beliefs into action. In terms of the role that religious and moral teachings should play in public debate about key issues, American voters do not focus on the issues of abortion, gay marriage, and the kind of topics that so exercise conservative Christian leaders, but would prefer to see their churches lead on issues such as alleviating "poverty and hunger" (75 percent), "homelessness" (61 percent), "government corruption" (58 percent), "terrorism" (56 percent), "the environment" (54 percent), and "health care" (52 percent). Americans specifically reject the conservative Christian desire to suppress science in the service of religious dogma. Eighty percent of those questioned agree that "faith and science can and should coexist. We can respect our belief in God and our commitment to the dignity of every human life by using our scientific knowledge to help those who are sick or vulnerable." The same overwhelming number endorses the view that "stem cell research can be a force for moral good rather than a moral failing."
http://mediamatters.org/altercation/?f=h_column
cawacko
Well-known member
Media Matters? Should I go find a study that Rush Limbaugh did that says this is a center-right country?
learn to read. then get back to me.
Cawacko, if you read the piece you'll see that those are PEW studies done, over decades. And that is Eric Alterman, who has written a book recently, much of which is about just this.
Sorry I snapped at you, but you guys are driving me crazy. You remind me of nothing more than little boys, covering your ears, stomping your feet, and yelling over and over "It' can't be! It can't be!" I don't know why I argue with you. Its not like you matter, or epic matters, or klaatu matters...in that regard I mean. With the right leader, those policies which enjoy such widespread support, will be enacted. It doesn 't matter what you "believe". Or guess at.
I think it's the arrogance that gets to me. We just won a huge election and YOU have decided that this proves this is a center right country, and Obama better not try and enact any of the policies he ran on.
I mean, by rights, he just won a mandate for socialism. Isn't that right? Talk about hoisted on your own petard!
However, I'm not talking about socialism or the right's retarded claims during the campaign...I'm talking those kind of policies above. If they're right of center, then this is a right of center country. I really don't care what you call them. I've always said, first you'd have to define the center. And everyone here will have a different opinon of where that is.
Sorry I snapped at you, but you guys are driving me crazy. You remind me of nothing more than little boys, covering your ears, stomping your feet, and yelling over and over "It' can't be! It can't be!" I don't know why I argue with you. Its not like you matter, or epic matters, or klaatu matters...in that regard I mean. With the right leader, those policies which enjoy such widespread support, will be enacted. It doesn 't matter what you "believe". Or guess at.
I think it's the arrogance that gets to me. We just won a huge election and YOU have decided that this proves this is a center right country, and Obama better not try and enact any of the policies he ran on.
I mean, by rights, he just won a mandate for socialism. Isn't that right? Talk about hoisted on your own petard!
However, I'm not talking about socialism or the right's retarded claims during the campaign...I'm talking those kind of policies above. If they're right of center, then this is a right of center country. I really don't care what you call them. I've always said, first you'd have to define the center. And everyone here will have a different opinon of where that is.
cawacko
Well-known member
I've been in almost zero discussions on whether the country leans right or left because it is difficult to define and usually ends up a partisan pissing match.
All I've really said is that I agree with Ornot when he said Obama is really a wild card. No one really know where he's going to govern from. He's not a known entity like someone who has been in Washington for 30 years. So of course everyone is trying to project what he might do or try to influence it somehow but ultimately we are all waiting to see.
Yes what ornot said is true. that is why i keep saying "with the right leader". I'm not certain it's going to be obama, i only suspect it.
What drives me crazy is, as soon as we won this huge election, the media started saying, as if they had a script, from station to station, dozens of different pundits "this is still a right of center country" yada yada and always ending with "this was not an embrace of liberalism but a rejection of george bush's policies". Well first of all, sorry, but W was a con. I know that the big, well, con, has been that he was a liberal, but it's just infuriating that the entire R party would vote for everything this guy told them to, over 8 years, and he would enjoy nearly 100 percent of Republican's votes, TWICE, and yet somehow, he's the liberals responsibility! sorry when your whole party voted for it, it's yours. Own it.
But worse...isn't every election a response to what has come before? Isn't that what we mean when we talk about the pendulum swinging throughout history? I mean, what condition was the country in when Carter lost to Reagan huh? And we all know that all of the Republicans started insisting that this was still a left of center country, and that Reagan better govern to the left, and that he had not won any mandate...voters were not voting FOR reagan, but against carter? Right?
You know, think about it and then maybe you will see what blowhards some sound like right now. And yet...I smell and sense an air of desperation about these claims. And that's why I smile.
