On being a blank slate and "free will"

[ZenMode]

I was reading through the CS Lewis topic and came across these two thoughts by Cypress that seem to be contradictory.

If our minds are blank slates and our thinking is based on what we learned, read, etc, how do we have free will?

"Our minds start out as blank slates, so to the extent we are "thinking for ourselves" it is almost entirely based on what we learned, read, digested, or considered from the work and ideas of others."

"Humans have the free will to act on a moral conscience, or not."

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I was reading through the CS Lewis topic and came across these two thoughts by Cypress that seem to be contradictory.

If our minds are blank slates and our thinking is based on what we learned, read, etc, how do we have free will?

"Our minds start out as blank slates, so to the extent we are "thinking for ourselves" it is almost entirely based on what we learned, read, digested, or considered from the work and ideas of others."

"Humans have the free will to act on a moral conscience, or not."

What's the conflict? Humans are self-programming computers. Although a "blank slate" in many ways, we have innate capabilities like suckling, fucking and eating.

You may have heard about how smart pigs are. They are, indeed, very smart, but a large amount of that smartness is geared toward finding food. They'll great locks, tear down fences, dig under walls, whatever it takes to get to food.

I see no conflict between "blank slate" and "free will".

 

[BidenPresident]

I was reading through the CS Lewis topic and came across these two thoughts by Cypress that seem to be contradictory.

If our minds are blank slates and our thinking is based on what we learned, read, etc, how do we have free will?

"Our minds start out as blank slates, so to the extent we are "thinking for ourselves" it is almost entirely based on what we learned, read, digested, or considered from the work and ideas of others."

"Humans have the free will to act on a moral conscience, or not."

What is the contradiction?

 

[ZenMode]

If we are born as a blank slate and who we are is the result all of the outside influences in our lives, over which we have no control, how is free will possible?

For example, if I'm a person that is highly motivated to play sports at a high level, but that motivation was the result of outside influences that I have no control over, then where is my freedom of will? I am who I am and it's not because I chose to be, right?

 

[Cypress]

If we are born as a blank slate and who we are is the result all of the outside influences in our lives, over which we have no control, how is free will possible?

For example, if I'm a person that is highly motivated to play sports at a high level, but that motivation was the result of outside influences that I have no control over, then where is my freedom of will? I am who I am and it's not because I chose to be, right?

That does not reflect what I said.

I said we start out metaphorically as a blank slate, and then ultimately become the sum total of the experiences we choose to have.

I chose what kind of education to pursue, I chose what I want to read, what I wanted to learn, I chose what kind of friends to have, etc.

 

[Althea]

If our minds are blank slates and our thinking is based on what we learned, read, etc, how do we have free will?

Nobody has free will over their thoughts. Everyone has free will over their actions.

You're welcome.

 

[Althea]

What's the conflict? Humans are self-programming computers. Although a "blank slate" in many ways, we have innate capabilities like suckling, fucking and eating.

You may have heard about how smart pigs are. They are, indeed, very smart, but a large amount of that smartness is geared toward finding food. They'll great locks, tear down fences, dig under walls, whatever it takes to get to food.

I see no conflict between "blank slate" and "free will".

Before we put on clothing and went to offices, humans (all animals, for that matter) were the same.


Now we're caught up in the fantasy that we actually have a productive life

 

[ZenMode]

That does not reflect what I said.

I said we start out metaphorically as a blank slate, and then ultimately become the sum total of the experiences we choose to have.

I chose what kind of education to pursue, I chose what I want to read, what I wanted to learn, I chose what kind of friends to have, etc.

Not sure what happened to my last post, but I'll try again...

Obviously 'you' aren't born with a preference for books or educational field, so any inclination toward a certain subject of book or educational field would be the result of an outside influence, or many outside influences, over which you have no control and didn't bring into existence.

 

[ZenMode]

Nobody has free will over their thoughts. Everyone has free will over their actions.

You're welcome.

I agree that we don't control our thoughts. We can't stop ourselves from thinking, we don't know what we're going to think until we think it and we can't prevent those thoughts from coming into consciousness. But is it not our thoughts that determine literally everything we consciously do?(As opposed to things like breathing, regulating heart beat, etc that we don't consciously control)

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Before we put on clothing and went to offices, humans (all animals, for that matter) were the same.


Now we're caught up in the fantasy that we actually have a productive life

Not exactly the same then and now. At least not for the past 300,000 to 1 million years.

I have a productive life, why don't you?

 

[Cypress]

Not sure what happened to my last post, but I'll try again...

Obviously 'you' aren't born with a preference for books or educational field, so any inclination toward a certain subject of book or educational field would be the result of an outside influence, or many outside influences, over which you have no control and didn't bring into existence.

The fact that one has influences (parents, teachers) does not disprove that we are ultimately responsible over the course of a lifetime to choose the experiences which add up to the sum total of our individuality.

 

[ZenMode]

The fact that one has influences (parents, teachers) does not disprove that we are ultimately responsible over the course of a lifetime to choose the experiences which add up to the sum total of our individuality.

I agree that each individual is responsible for their lifetime, at least more so than anyone else would be, but that doesn't give us free will to truly make a choice. The choices we make are the result of thoughts generated by our brain, which are then pushed to our consciousness and result in a decision/action. However, as I mentioned above, we don't control our thoughts. Our thoughts just arise in consciousness as a result of the totality of external influences. So, when you say "choose the experiences", the experiences we ultimately choose are based on the thoughts that we don't control, so there is no true "choice" being made.

For example, you're trying to decide between a chocolate and vanilla cupcake. You may go back and forth, in your mind, for many seconds before deciding on chocolate The idea behind free will is that, despite choosing chocolate, you could have chosen vanilla at that moment. That simply is not the case. At that moment in time, with the entirety of the universe, the culmination of all of your life's experiences, and down to the neurological activity in your brain being as it was, you could have only chosen chocolate. If you rewound time to that exact moment, with the universe exactly as it was, you would pick chocolate over and over and over until the end of time.

 

[Althea]

Not exactly the same then and now. At least not for the past 300,000 to 1 million years.

I have a productive life, why don't you?

Your life is based around feeding your family every day. Everything else (save for shelter) is extraneous.

 

[Althea]

I agree that we don't control our thoughts. We can't stop ourselves from thinking, we don't know what we're going to think until we think it and we can't prevent those thoughts from coming into consciousness. But is it not our thoughts that determine literally everything we consciously do?(As opposed to things like breathing, regulating heart beat, etc that we don't consciously control)

There are many, including a fake Buddhist on this board, that will tell you that they strive to keep impure thoughts from their heads. Certain societies come close to achieving that via meditation. Others through prayer. In fact, many zealots believe that even thinking the wrong thought is a sin.

We control everything that we act upon, even if said action begins as a random thought.

 

[BidenPresident]

I never understood the concept of free will. Some scientists and philosopher deny there is free will. That seems wrong.

I think the idea of free will was invented by Christians trying to explain how God is all powerful but humans have the free will to disobey.

 

[Geeko Sportivo]

I was reading through the CS Lewis topic and came across these two thoughts by Cypress that seem to be contradictory.

If our minds are blank slates and our thinking is based on what we learned, read, etc, how do we have free will?

"Our minds start out as blank slates, so to the extent we are "thinking for ourselves" it is almost entirely based on what we learned, read, digested, or considered from the work and ideas of others."

"Humans have the free will to act on a moral conscience, or not."

There must be some kind of a Personality disorder that sets people up to "Make up things- or imagine things- and for them- THAT IS HOW THEY SEE IT From NOW ON!

They may be the dumbest nimcompute on the planet- BUT YET THEY THINK THEY ARE SMARTER THAN ANYONE ELSE!

Or they think their inexperienced and often times biased opinions are somehow even credible!

I know many people like this! You can't even get a word in edgewise with them.

I've learned, the hard way, that I learn more from speaking less and listening to others with true experience to back them up!

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Your life is based around feeding your family every day. Everything else (save for shelter) is extraneous.

While I agree the point of life is to survive, do you really believe that creatures with the power to reason and explore the universe should just say "Fuck it!" and act like lower creatures of their planet?

TBH, if there really is life off Earth, then the odds say your philosophy has been tried.

 

[Althea]

While I agree the point of life is to survive, do you really believe that creatures with the power to reason and explore the universe should just say "Fuck it!" and act like lower creatures of their planet?

TBH, if there really is life off Earth, then the odds say your philosophy has been tried.

Hmmm...so you believe that the 'lower' creatures aren't the ones who are making our environment unlivable?

You do realize that the world would be a better place without creatures who have the power to 'reason'.

(Although many non human creatures do)

 

[Celticguy]

If we are born as a blank slate and who we are is the result all of the outside influences in our lives, over which we have no control, how is free will possible?

For example, if I'm a person that is highly motivated to play sports at a high level, but that motivation was the result of outside influences that I have no control over, then where is my freedom of will? I am who I am and it's not because I chose to be, right?

I'm not in the blank slate camp personally but as to free will , you do have the ability to allow some of your slate to be used by whatever stimuli it is that you've come across or not.

For example lets say you are a male and you get a look at some lovely boobies. Now you can allot some of that clean slate to "seek out lovely boobies at all times" or "boobies are nice but so are eyes".

Your call, free will.

 

[Celticguy]

Hmmm...so you believe that the 'lower' creatures aren't the ones who are making our environment unlivable?

You do realize that the world would be a better place without creatures who have the power to 'reason'.

(Although many non human creatures do)

Hold up there... you think non-humans possess reason ? Gimme ferinstance please ?