FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
The US is in no way, shape, or form the "greatest entity know to man". It's the worst country on the whole fucking planet.
Open Letter to Undecided Voters
- Thread starter Dixie - In Memoriam
- Start date
The US is in no way, shape, or form the "greatest entity know to man". It's the worst country on the whole fucking planet.
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
The constitution never mentions natural rights because natural rights are a debatle subject. Your belief that the nation somehow avoids crumblance due to the godly aura of having declared that our rights come from God is, again, silly beyond words.
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
Find me where it says that in the constitution and I'll send a hoe to give you your first BJ Dix.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Damo, I submit this example of how disbelief in "Our Creator" effects the human mind. Waterhead doesn't believe in the foundational principle of our great republic, therefore, he views America in a much different light than those of us who do. You will find this is the case with regard to most 'America Haters', they simply don't believe in our founding principles, they reject them, and seek to destroy them at every turn.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Let me ask you this, Waterhead... what is the foundational document which enabled the Constitution to be written in the first place? What important document allowed us to even consider writing a Constitution? Before we could even establish a Constitutional Convention and mull over the idea of independence from England, what document had to precede this?
Go to that document, and you will find your answer in the first paragraph.
No hoe needed or desired here, but thanks anyway.
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
The Articles of Confederation?
The Declaration of Independence is IRRELEVANT to American governance.
Epicurus
Reasonable
Not necessarily.
Mott the Hoople
Sweet Jane
You're not a blue dog. You're not a conservative or a moderate mottley. Well, if what I've known of you means anything, you've been one of the biggest liberals at the site.
I do think that sometimes it is reasonable to run on a third party ticket, but it's very difficult to actually found a new one (the Progressive Party in Vermont being an exception). You simply need a very large percentage of the statewide vote to get any seats at all in the legislature, and if you win the governership the Democrats and the Republicans will work against you.
You mistake my hostility towards right wing extremist as being a liberal. I was a Republican for 24 years and only became a registered Democrat in 2004, though, in all fairness, I made that decision in March of 2003.
uscitizen
Villified User
If Bush could and was running again Dixie would be pulling for him.
Socrtease
Verified User
The Declaration of Independence has NO LEGAL power in the US. It was and always will be a "declaration of divorce" from our original mother country. There is nothing binding on the US in the DoI. The fact that it mentions a creator has nothing to do with the constitution which does not mention a creator once.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
This shows what an utter fucking idiot you are. The DoI is the foundation for the Constitution, and everything that came after it. Without the DoI, we could have never had a Constitution or a nation independent of England.
The Constitution does indeed mention "securing the blessings of liberty" and blessings do not come from worldly sources, they are indeed divine in nature.
Word History: The verb bless comes from Old English bldsian, blēdsian, blētsian, "to bless, wish happiness, consecrate." Although the Old English verb has no cognates in any other Germanic language, it can be shown to derive from the Germanic noun *blōdan, "blood." Bldsian therefore literally means "to consecrate with blood, sprinkle with blood." The Angles, Saxons, and Jutes, the early Germanic migrants to Britain, used bldsian for their pagan sacrifices. After they converted to Christianity, bldsian acquired new meanings as a result of its use in translations of the Latin Bible, but it kept its pagan Germanic senses as well.
The Constitution also references "our Lord" in the final decree of certification in signature...
Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth.
However, let's not deter from the fact that the DoI is the foundation for the Constitution, and the Constitution is the formal list of rules and laws we are governed by. Your argument is like claiming, since the Roman Catholic Doctrine on protocol for selection of a Pope, doesn't specifically mention God, the Catholic Church is not a religious organization. The Constitution has no fundamental reason to mention God, although it does mention "the Lord" and "securing blessings" within the text.
The basis for the Constitution, is the Declaration of Independence, and aside from mentioning the fact we are "endowed by our Creator" (note capitalization), it begins with this very basic principle...
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."
So you can dispute this all you like, 56 Americans signed this Declaration, and paved the way for a Constitution to be penned on it's principles.
You do know that the SCOTUS ruled that the DoI has no legal bearing, right?
Soc spoke rightly. The DoI has historical value but is not a legal document you can use to argue any case in any US court of law.
C
Cancel3
Guest
Dixie, you are trying to make it sound as though our founding fathers, having mentioned a deity in the DOI didn't need to mention it again, and that they thought a religious aspect should be included.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
You have only to look at what some of these men thought of religion to see WHY the US Constitution doesn't mention god.
Here are some quotes from Thomas Jefferson:
"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."
- to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.
1. That there are three Gods.
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing.
3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith.
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save."
- to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever."
-Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
And how about George Washington?
The father of this country was very private about his beliefs, but it is widely considered that he was a Deist like his colleagues. He was a Freemason.
Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]
Paul F. Boller states in is anthology on Washington: "There is no mention of Jesus Christ anywhere in his extensive correspondence." [Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15]
"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."
- letter to Edward Newenham, 1792
And John Adams?
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
-letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."
Nothing could be further from the truth.
You have only to look at what some of these men thought of religion to see WHY the US Constitution doesn't mention god.
Here are some quotes from Thomas Jefferson:
"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."
- to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.
1. That there are three Gods.
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing.
3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith.
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save."
- to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever."
-Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
And how about George Washington?
The father of this country was very private about his beliefs, but it is widely considered that he was a Deist like his colleagues. He was a Freemason.
Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]
Paul F. Boller states in is anthology on Washington: "There is no mention of Jesus Christ anywhere in his extensive correspondence." [Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15]
"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."
- letter to Edward Newenham, 1792
And John Adams?
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
-letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
That isn't the point, and I have never said it is the point. Whether it is a legal instrument is not the argument. The DoI is the foundation for the establishment of the nation and by extension, the Constitution and all of our laws. It doesn't have to have legal bearing, that is why the Constitution was written. It's like I said, the Roman Catholics have a set of guidelines and rules for selection of a Pope, and it doesn't mention a thing about the tenants of Roman Catholicism, because that is not its purpose, but this doesn't mean Roman Catholicism is not a religion.
The nation was founded on the principle that all men are CREATED, and CREATED equally by OUR CREATOR. We are endowed by that CREATOR with this freedom to self govern, as opposed to being granted some freedom by man or a piece of paper. This principle is what makes America unique and special, and impervious to tyranny and dictatorship by man. It is what differentiates us from our previous government, which was ruled by man, and granted freedom by the state. The Constitution is the set of rules and guidelines, the legal instrument by which our government operates, but its foundation, what makes it possible, is the Declaration of Independence, which had to first be articulated, written, and endorsed by the many states.
You want to attempt to wad up the DoI and throw it in the trash can, but doing that, renders the entire Constitution and our independence as a nation, wholly invalid and without basis or justification. We become nothing more than a flimsy spectacle of governance by man, based on man's law and wards of the court. This can be destroyed, this can be taken away in the blink of an eye. The laws of Nature, and Nature's God, have given us something that no man can destroy or take away. This is the foundational premise in which our nation was built and the Constitution enabled, and the Supreme Court given any authority at all. Without it, all of this fails.
Now on to Solitary's canard and false assertions. He seems to think I am arguing we are a "Christian Nation" and again, I have not ever stated such a thing, and I don't believe we are any kind of a 'theocratic-based' entity. We simply derive our powers to govern ourselves through Nature and Nature's God. Granted, many of our laws and rules, supported and enumerated in the Constitution, are rooted in Judea-Christian philosophies, they are also found in other spiritual faiths. This is not a reason to destroy them or deny their relevance and basis.
I think there are two groups of people who totally misunderstand our foundational principle, Atheists who want to ignore the principle altogether, and religious wackos who want to maintain we are a "Christian" nation. The beauty of our founding, is the universality of Nature's God, it makes no distinction or claims, other than establishing something greater than mankind endowed us with this unique right to self govern. It is also what enables us to guarantee man the freedom to worship whatever 'God' he desires, or no 'God' at all.
Socrtease
Verified User
Very loverly flowerly language but it does nothing to counter my absolutely true statement that the DoI has NO LEGAL AUTHORITY in the US. It is not a legal document. It has no binding power. No one goes to court and argues that the DoI gives them any authority to do anything. It was is and always will be nothing more than a document of separation.
Socrtease
Verified User
And you Dumbass, the Constitution was the SECOND foundational document created by the founders. The first was the Articles of Confederation. The Constitution was created because of all the glaring faults and oversights that was the Articles. Finally, your statement that the word LORD is included in the signing date to prove that I am wrong that god IS mentioned in the Constitution is just plain stoopid. You will argue any POS argument you can to Always prove your point and then you wonder why most people in here think you are a fucking idiot. If this board were community and we all had a vote you would be village idiot.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
I've never said your statement wasn't true, it's just not valid in this argument. I can make all kinds of true statements that don't have any bearing on what is being argued, that doesn't mean I win the argument. We are not debating what is a "legal authority", we are discussing the foundational principles of our government, what enabled us to forge any kind of "legal authority" in the first place.
Why would the Constitution mention God? We are not a theocracy, there is no mandate in law that we worship a God, or respect the wishes of any particular religious faith... so why would such a mention be expected? It is very deliberate that God is not mentioned in the Constitution, we are not a theocratic government, we are not bound by the specific faith of Christians, Jews, Muslims, or Atheists for that matter. Therefore, there is no need or purpose in mentioning a "God" of any kind, within the Constitution itself.
The problem you seem to be having is, your denial of the fact that our Constitution was enabled by our declaring independence from England, and that was articulated (and approved) by the Declaration of Independence. Within that document, is laid out the principle on which we declared such independence and paved the way for a Constitution of self-governance. It is very clear, this was based on the belief in a superior power which compelled us to 'form a more perfect union' and this power is inalienable, not given by man and not subject to being taken away by man. When you deny this foundational principle, it becomes irrelevant what the Constitution says, it is just a stupid piece of paper that means nothing.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Well, the Articles of Confederation also have no "legal bearing" in law. But neither the Articles or the Constitution are the "foundational document" of this nation. That is the Declaration of Independence, which established our foundation for a new nation, independent of England.
Yes, you were proven wrong about the mention of "God" in the Constitution. You can call me all kinds of names and try to tear down my credibility all you like, that's the tactics of someone who is too proud to admit they were wrong. I don't really care what "most people here" think of me, in case you hadn't noticed. I am not here to be liked or accepted, or endorsed as a "smart person" by a bunch of idiots on the Internet. My life is much deeper than that, and it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other.