Pelosi: Golden Rule Should Apply to Terrorists!
- Thread starter Dixie - In Memoriam
- Start date
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Let me also add this, because I know that some of the morons I have blocked have probably tried to make the case for why we should invoke the Golden Rule on terrorists...
A popular argument (McCain) for strict adherence to the Geneva Conventions, is that we want to do this to insure the humane treatment of our own soldiers who are captured in the future. This would be valid if America fought wars with countries who respected the Geneva Conventions, but we don't, never have, and probably never will. We don't obey the Geneva Conventions because we anticipate our enemies will reciprocate, we do this because we are a civilized and humane society who believes in treating people humanely. Any expectations that our actions will buy us goodwill from our future enemies is ludicrous. It simply doesn't matter how we treat captured enemies, whether they are treated according to the GC or not, our enemies in the future will not respect the GC, with regard to the treatment of our soldiers. If you are ignorant and naive enough to believe that it will make any difference, you are an absolute idiot.
A popular argument (McCain) for strict adherence to the Geneva Conventions, is that we want to do this to insure the humane treatment of our own soldiers who are captured in the future. This would be valid if America fought wars with countries who respected the Geneva Conventions, but we don't, never have, and probably never will. We don't obey the Geneva Conventions because we anticipate our enemies will reciprocate, we do this because we are a civilized and humane society who believes in treating people humanely. Any expectations that our actions will buy us goodwill from our future enemies is ludicrous. It simply doesn't matter how we treat captured enemies, whether they are treated according to the GC or not, our enemies in the future will not respect the GC, with regard to the treatment of our soldiers. If you are ignorant and naive enough to believe that it will make any difference, you are an absolute idiot.
maineman
Banned
Oh...Dixie.... you have quoted me before on this site... We know that you aren't really "ignoring" me...you just know that I have destroyed you in every debate we have ever had and you are hiding behind the "ignore" story as a dodge to avoid getting your ass handed to you repeatedly on this site like you did on the previous two.
maineman
Banned
poll question: if you had to pick which person would be classifed as an absolute idiot, would it be:
A. Senator John McCain
B. Dixie
You see, for him to pretend he is ignoring us... is perfect for him, he does not have to respond.
He just sets up a paper argument then tears it down! That way noone will ever point out he is wrong. Typical Republican Bush supporter!
I actually like the idea that it just does, and we should accept that it does. Then you have a much greater problem about the veracity of the Bible in general. If these scribes couldn't get something simple like the Golden Rule right, and according to Dixie they couldn't, then how much of that Book can we believe...
I'm really with Dixie on this one...right down the line...
They just got it wrong...it's really that simple...God is not infallable and the Bible isn't accurate...Dixie said:
IHateGovernment
Is this your homework?
I agree with the general premise of what Pelosi said. We probably differ on the exact implications of that but I agree with the general principle.
Dixie is right that we can't honestly expect groups like Al-Queda to respect our soldiers rights. However I also know that if we engage in things like torture or other degrading acts we are going to anger the world community. One benefit that our nation has in the war on terror is the ability to claim the high ground.
We lost some of that credibility when we invaded Iraq which regardless of your own opinion is something that is generally condemned by most of the world community especially in the arab/muslim world. Engaging in torture will further turn world opinion against us.
The war on terror is not just a war of bombs and bullets but of ideology and convincing the world that we are a force of good and our enemies a force of evil. When we engage in behavior that is viewed as stooping down to their level we turn more and more people against us and some of those people we will have alienated so much that they will take up arms against us. You can argue with me all you want about how such a perception is wrong. Ultimately it doesn't matter if you convince me you have to convince the young muslim man who hears about the evil USA and how it is committing barbaric acts upon his Muslim brothers and decides to pick up an AK or a bomb belt and kill our soldiers.
For every terrorist that is killed it is a small victory in the war on terror. But it is also a small victory when a person sees the United States positively and turns away from terrorism and even supports our side.
Torturing prisoners doesn't aid us in the second realm.
If however this question is not about principle for you but rather pragmatics ask yourself this: Is the information we gain from torturing prisoners worth the likely increase in anti-American sentiment that will lead to even more terrorism?
I don't think so.
Dixie is right that we can't honestly expect groups like Al-Queda to respect our soldiers rights. However I also know that if we engage in things like torture or other degrading acts we are going to anger the world community. One benefit that our nation has in the war on terror is the ability to claim the high ground.
We lost some of that credibility when we invaded Iraq which regardless of your own opinion is something that is generally condemned by most of the world community especially in the arab/muslim world. Engaging in torture will further turn world opinion against us.
The war on terror is not just a war of bombs and bullets but of ideology and convincing the world that we are a force of good and our enemies a force of evil. When we engage in behavior that is viewed as stooping down to their level we turn more and more people against us and some of those people we will have alienated so much that they will take up arms against us. You can argue with me all you want about how such a perception is wrong. Ultimately it doesn't matter if you convince me you have to convince the young muslim man who hears about the evil USA and how it is committing barbaric acts upon his Muslim brothers and decides to pick up an AK or a bomb belt and kill our soldiers.
For every terrorist that is killed it is a small victory in the war on terror. But it is also a small victory when a person sees the United States positively and turns away from terrorism and even supports our side.
Torturing prisoners doesn't aid us in the second realm.
If however this question is not about principle for you but rather pragmatics ask yourself this: Is the information we gain from torturing prisoners worth the likely increase in anti-American sentiment that will lead to even more terrorism?
I don't think so.
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
You are your bunch have done too much to destroy America already. What president in our history has brought us so much hate, and threatened our national security so much because of useless hatred, and destroyed so much in 6 fucking years?
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
LOL.... Why is it so fucking important to you idiots, what France and Germany think of us? Why is it so important to cow-tow to the UN and Europe? What the fuck have any of them EVER done, to create such a great sucking noise at their assholes?
You guys are pathetic, you care more about whether the French like us, than actually taking measures to protect the lives of American citizens and soldiers. If we have a captured alQaeda operative who knows information about a planned terror attack, I want our CIA to use every means necessary to extrapolate that information from them, and I don't really give a flying fuck if Kofi Anan is okay with it!
You guys are pathetic, you care more about whether the French like us, than actually taking measures to protect the lives of American citizens and soldiers. If we have a captured alQaeda operative who knows information about a planned terror attack, I want our CIA to use every means necessary to extrapolate that information from them, and I don't really give a flying fuck if Kofi Anan is okay with it!
IHateGovernment
Is this your homework?
LOL.... Why is it so fucking important to you idiots, what France and Germany think of us? Why is it so important to cow-tow to the UN and Europe? What the fuck have any of them EVER done, to create such a great sucking noise at their assholes?
Because most of this debate has been about interpretation of the Golden Rule I will assume this is directed toward me and my concern about world perception. When I wrote that response I didn't even think of the UN or France or Germany. I don't really care to much what they think at least not relatively. Why do you bring up France and Germany I didn't mention them and no one else did either. The only person who brought up world opinion was me and argued that it was relevant in preventing people from wanting to do harm to our nation. This is more relevant with nations that would be terrorists would come from not from France or Germany. How did you get such an idea?
You guys are pathetic, you care more about whether the French like us, than actually taking measures to protect the lives of American citizens and soldiers. If we have a captured alQaeda operative who knows information about a planned terror attack, I want our CIA to use every means necessary to extrapolate that information from them, and I don't really give a flying fuck if Kofi Anan is okay with it!
Come on Dixie you must have skimmed my post and not read the details I guess. This is straw man.
Read my post and get back to me with your critiques. At this point your railing against something nobody here has said.
Because most of this debate has been about interpretation of the Golden Rule I will assume this is directed toward me and my concern about world perception. When I wrote that response I didn't even think of the UN or France or Germany. I don't really care to much what they think at least not relatively. Why do you bring up France and Germany I didn't mention them and no one else did either. The only person who brought up world opinion was me and argued that it was relevant in preventing people from wanting to do harm to our nation. This is more relevant with nations that would be terrorists would come from not from France or Germany. How did you get such an idea?
You guys are pathetic, you care more about whether the French like us, than actually taking measures to protect the lives of American citizens and soldiers. If we have a captured alQaeda operative who knows information about a planned terror attack, I want our CIA to use every means necessary to extrapolate that information from them, and I don't really give a flying fuck if Kofi Anan is okay with it!
Come on Dixie you must have skimmed my post and not read the details I guess. This is straw man.
Read my post and get back to me with your critiques. At this point your railing against something nobody here has said.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
True, most of this thread was hijacked by liberal pinheads who'd rather obsess on some trivial detail and try to detract from the topic of the thread, but I was indeed addressing your concerns about other nations perceptions of us. I assumed you were talking about people we trade with, people we deal with, people we work with on a regular basis in NATO or the UN. What I said, applies even more to less friendly countries... I REALLY don't give a fuck what pleases THEM!
Anti-western, anti-US, anti-Israel countries, didn't like us long before the War on Terror, and they won't like us during or after it, and there isn't a damn thing we can do to change that, and it doesn't matter if we could. Our goals and objectives are not centered around getting countries to like us, who have traditionally hated us. For some unknown reason, certain people think, if we could just show them what nice guys we are, they wouldn't hate us... that is silly and foolish to believe, and even more ridiculous to try and build US foreign policy around.
Our objective should be to take actions to protect our own interests, regardless of what other nations (friendly or not) think of it. Does Syria or Iran give one flying fuck what we think of their actions? Do they give a shit about what we think of them? Do you believe ANYTHING we could do, would suddenly change their perception of us? ...I mean, besides all of us dying and America dropping off the face of the planet? Let's be real here, we aren't dealing with some liberal social group, who needs our understanding and sympathy... We are not conducting an outreach ministry to radicals who want to slit our throats! They attacked us and declared war upon our nation, and we should be doing whatever the hell we need to do, to win the war, and eliminate these people from power on the world stage. We shouldn't concern ourselves in the least, what Armagedongoneinsane thinks about it!
maineman
Banned
I am going with Dixie.
I think that John McCain, a victim of torture, has a much more informed perspective than a redneck racist coward who avoided serving his country.
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
One of the few parts of the bible I agree with.
However, the vast majority of the bible absolutely contradicts such notions.
Good Luck
New member
There is no valid excuse for mistreatment of POWs. Torture has been proven time and again to be an unreliable method for obtaining information. Hurt a person enough they will say anything to please their questioners whether it is true or not.
If the goal is retribution rather than information, try them as spies under war conditions (terrorists do not advertise themselves by wearing any identifiable markings) convict them under military tribunal, and hang them. Torture is still not justifiable.
Many times in war, U.S. POWs have been poorly treated by our enemies. That is still not reason to mistreat our prisoners. We treat our prisoners correctly because we are not barbarians. (Conversely, if we do not treat our POWs correctly, we ARE barbarians.)
If the goal is retribution rather than information, try them as spies under war conditions (terrorists do not advertise themselves by wearing any identifiable markings) convict them under military tribunal, and hang them. Torture is still not justifiable.
Many times in war, U.S. POWs have been poorly treated by our enemies. That is still not reason to mistreat our prisoners. We treat our prisoners correctly because we are not barbarians. (Conversely, if we do not treat our POWs correctly, we ARE barbarians.)
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
We are not barbarians.
That's what the Japanese told the Americans before the Bataan death march...
Yeah...got your point O' Ye of Soft and Mushy Brains....loud and clear...
After viewing the videos of
Danny Pearl
Eugene Armstrong
Paul Johnson
etc.
I have come to a somewhat different conclusion on the treatment of captured terrorists....actually, why they are even 'captured' in the first place is an oddity to began with....
Actually...Anyone that will trust an Islamic extremest is obviously a fool at the start....
....It is you that is despicable....as most anti-Americans are