Philosphy, free will, and the absence of Religious authority

[ThatOwlWoman]

From what I am understanding, the thing that was remarkable about the Greeks is that while they had religion and ceremony, they did not confer upon the priesthood any kind of epistemological authority. And that is exactly what gave men from Protagaras to Socrates to Plato the environment to pursue knowledge on secular terms - not mystical religious terms. It's a plausible theory that to me makes eminent sense.

The Arabs were world-class mathematicians and astronomers.... then along came Islam. Algebra was at least in part invented by Al-Khwarizmi, and Wikipedia states that

"Another Persian mathematician Omar Khayyam is credited with identifying the foundations of algebraic geometry and found the general geometric solution of the cubic equation. His book Treatise on Demonstrations of Problems of Algebra (1070), which laid down the principles of algebra, is part of the body of Persian mathematics that was eventually transmitted to Europe.[24] Yet another Persian mathematician, Sharaf al-Dīn al-Tūsī, found algebraic and numerical solutions to various cases of cubic equations.[25] He also developed the concept of a function.[26] The Indian mathematicians Mahavira and Bhaskara II, the Persian mathematician Al-Karaji,[27] and the Chinese mathematician Zhu Shijie, solved various cases of cubic, quartic, quintic and higher-order polynomial equations using numerical methods. In the 13th century, the solution of a cubic equation by Fibonacci is representative of the beginning of a revival in European algebra. Abū al-Ḥasan ibn ʿAlī al-Qalaṣādī (1412–1486) took "the first steps toward the introduction of algebraic symbolism". He also computed ∑n2, ∑n3 and used the method of successive approximation to determine square roots.[28] As the Islamic world was declining, the European world was ascending. And it is here that algebra was further developed." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra)

Many of our star names are Arabic. Again from Wikipedia: "Very old star names originated among people who lived in the Arabian Peninsula more than a thousand years ago, before the rise of Islam. However, many Arabic language star names sprang up later in history, as translations of ancient Greek language descriptions." (bold is my emphasis)

While religion may have inspired beautiful music and architecture, it seems to be anathema to reasoning and science.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Obviously your unemployed and spend all your time on this forum

"You're" = you are. "Your" = belongs to you.

Before you start flinging your monkey poo, learn some grammar. Spasibo, Tovarisch.

 

[Phantasmal]

What do you know about him? Just a casual question, nothing is meant other than how are you familiar with him.

My high school CCD teacher got me interested, tied to my love of theater, “The Man for All Seasons”

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

My observation is that trouble starts for the governed when politics and religion are bed fellows.

Yep. The religious of course are just fine with having the power.... until their particular faith falls out of favor and is replaced by v2.0.

 

[Jack]

My high school CCD teacher got me interested, tied to my love of theater, “The Man for All Seasons”

Hmmm. OK. Thanks.

 

[Cypress]

Would it have to be a state religion, why not just the state? or, in a reality where the state is the religion?

(does beat another post about Bret)

From what I understand, it all comes down to who has the authority to define ultimate reality, to proclaim doctrine and dogma on the metaphysical nature of existence. In almost all ancient civilizations, that kind of authority was held and jealously guarded by the priestly class, the state religion. Or, as you imply the State itself if the state was inseperable from the prevailing religion.

According to this professor of philosophy, the thing that made ancient Greece unique in the ancient world is that their religion and priestly class did not have that kind of authority over the nature and scope of knowledge. That is exactly why western civilization and the secular liberal tradtion looks back to ancient Greece as the inspiration ....not to Persia, Egypt, Mesopotamia, or Sumeria.

 

[Cypress]

The Arabs were world-class mathematicians and astronomers.... then along came Islam. Algebra was at least in part invented by Al-Khwarizmi, and Wikipedia states that

"Another Persian mathematician Omar Khayyam is credited with identifying the foundations of algebraic geometry and found the general geometric solution of the cubic equation. His book Treatise on Demonstrations of Problems of Algebra (1070), which laid down the principles of algebra, is part of the body of Persian mathematics that was eventually transmitted to Europe.[24] Yet another Persian mathematician, Sharaf al-Dīn al-Tūsī, found algebraic and numerical solutions to various cases of cubic equations.[25] He also developed the concept of a function.[26] The Indian mathematicians Mahavira and Bhaskara II, the Persian mathematician Al-Karaji,[27] and the Chinese mathematician Zhu Shijie, solved various cases of cubic, quartic, quintic and higher-order polynomial equations using numerical methods. In the 13th century, the solution of a cubic equation by Fibonacci is representative of the beginning of a revival in European algebra. Abū al-Ḥasan ibn ʿAlī al-Qalaṣādī (1412–1486) took "the first steps toward the introduction of algebraic symbolism". He also computed ∑n2, ∑n3 and used the method of successive approximation to determine square roots.[28] As the Islamic world was declining, the European world was ascending. And it is here that algebra was further developed." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra)

Many of our star names are Arabic. Again from Wikipedia: "Very old star names originated among people who lived in the Arabian Peninsula more than a thousand years ago, before the rise of Islam. However, many Arabic language star names sprang up later in history, as translations of ancient Greek language descriptions." (bold is my emphasis)

While religion may have inspired beautiful music and architecture, it seems to be anathema to reasoning and science.

A great insight.

 

[Into the Night]

Corporate Capitalism is the root of all evil!

Really?? It was capitalism that CREATED corporations! It was corporations that created the computer that you use now, brought the internet forward into what it is today, and makes it possible for you to sit at home and just order stuff from places like Amazon. You call this evil??

 

[Into the Night]

My observation is that trouble starts for the governed when politics and religion are bed fellows.

It can certainly be the case. Consider, however, that an organized religion is also politics.

 

[Lightbringer]

Also, I am pretty sure Socrates was executed for political reasons.

The official reasons the authorities gave (aka, corruption of the youth, not believing in the Olympian gods) were legal cover for what probably amounted to a political execution.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that was a political hit. He was seen as a quisling in Athens after the Sparta backed government was overthrown and he had to have known he was dead meat sooner rather than later once Athens reverted back to Democracy.

 

[Lightbringer]

unfettered Capitalism eats its self and becomes a concentration of power into fewer and fewer hands


The founders created a Hybrid for good reasons

The Founders did no such thing. As a group they favored property rights, free markets, monetary stability and fairness in court proceedings particularly regarding property rights. That is hardly a mixed economy.

 

[Mason Michaels]

Really?? It was capitalism that CREATED corporations! It was corporations that created the computer that you use now, brought the internet forward into what it is today, and makes it possible for you to sit at home and just order stuff from places like Amazon. You call this evil??

Evil!

 

[Mason Michaels]

The Founders did no such thing. As a group they favored property rights, free markets, monetary stability and fairness in court proceedings particularly regarding property rights. That is hardly a mixed economy.

Corporate Capitalism on the scale we have today,and "Citizens United" ,didn't exist in the time of the Founding Fathers!

 

[Lightbringer]

Corporate Capitalism on the scale we have today,and "Citizens United" ,didn't exist in the time of the Founding Fathers!

I didn't say it did although you're wrong, it did in fact exist.

I was responding to Evince and her "hybrid" statement, which is also quite wrong.

 

[Cypress]

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that was a political hit. He was seen as a quisling in Athens after the Sparta backed government was overthrown and he had to have known he was dead meat sooner rather than later once Athens reverted back to Democracy.

That is good intel.

I heard a professor state that whether it was ancient Greece, the Roman empire, or the Islamic caliphate, whenever there was civil or political unrest the first people to get exiled or imprisoned were the philosophers...because they asked too many bloody questions!

 

[Lightbringer]

That is good intel.

I heard a professor state that whether it was ancient Greece, the Roman empire, or the Islamic caliphate, whenever there was civil or political unrest the first people to get exiled or imprisoned were the philosophers...because they asked too many bloody questions!

In the case of Socrates it was straight up political, he was a well-known critic of Democracy and justly or not he was thought to have helped the Sparta backed government imposed on Athens after the war. Once the Democrats regained power in Athens...payback was a bitch.

 

[evince]

The Founders did no such thing. As a group they favored property rights, free markets, monetary stability and fairness in court proceedings particularly regarding property rights. That is hardly a mixed economy.

they changed the meaning of the word democracy fool


now we have


democracy


and


pure or direct democracy


the founders made democracy coupled with a republic


all based in capitalism


have you never taken a government history class?

 

[evince]

In the case of Socrates it was straight up political, he was a well-known critic of Democracy and justly or not he was thought to have helped the Sparta backed government imposed on Athens after the war. Once the Democrats regained power in Athens...payback was a bitch.

He didn't like democracy because in his day their was only direct or pure democracy idiot

 

[evince]

I didn't say it did although you're wrong, it did in fact exist.

I was responding to Evince and her "hybrid" statement, which is also quite wrong.

link
to your claims

 

[Lightbringer]

they changed the meaning of the word democracy fool


now we have


democracy


and


pure or direct democracy


the founders made democracy coupled with a republic


all based in capitalism


have you never taken a government history class?

I am far more educated than you madam. Did you know that some of the Founders wanted the federal government to massively invest in large scale industry? But they didn't. The point being that crony capitalism isn't a new thing. Ever heard of the East India Company? What do you think that was? How about Germany at the onset of the industrial revolution and tech boom?

You really do need to stop gargling dicks and start reading history books.