Pro-Choice Catholics...

[Jarod]

Look. You are being deliberately obtuse.

You said that they should leave the catholic church because they disagreed with the Pope. I mentioned that your comparison skills suck because one is stating backwards hate-filled rhetoric based on the past, the other speaks for lives that he values.

It is not the same thing in any way shape or form if you disagree with the pope on this issue.

If I regularly went to a church that the pastor would suddenly, on occasion, start in on the "mark of cain" and how blacks are supposed to be servants (and I knew that he was doing this), but still sat at the church it would be the same thing while I was a Senator and running for President. It is not the same thing if I disagree on "choice".

That type of thing is exactly why I do not attend church, but I am not going to hold it against someone who choose to go to church and take the good whilst leaving behind the bad.

I used to be very upset at Pro-Choice Catholics who gave money to the church knowing what that money paid for. I have since learned that you can support a religen and still disagree with parts of it you find offensive.

I find the Catholics to be sexist because they dont allow women to hold leadership positions in the church, I find them to be sexualists because of the stance on gays, I find them to be anti-freedom because they threaten to ex-communicate those who disagree with them on abortion. I find them to be abusive because they use guilt and fear to force complyance. I find them to be unresponsable because they chose to ignore the sexual abuse problem rather than admit it and clean it up.

I really really dislike the Catholic Church a LOT, but I supported John Kerry for president, because I do not equate ones chosen religen with the person. People can take what they like from a church and leave behind what they dont like. I dont choose to do that, but others do, and I have learned to respect that!

 

[Damocles]

That type of thing is exactly why I do not attend church, but I am not going to hold it against someone who choose to go to church and take the good whilst leaving behind the bad.

I used to be very upset at Pro-Choice Catholics who gave money to the church knowing what that money paid for. I have since learned that you can support a religen and still disagree with parts of it you find offensive.

I find the Catholics to be sexist because they dont allow women to hold leadership positions in the church, I find them to be sexualists because of the stance on gays, I find them to be anti-freedom because they threaten to ex-communicate those who disagree with them on abortion. I find them to be abusive because they use guilt and fear to force complyance. I find them to be unresponsable because they chose to ignore the sexual abuse problem rather than admit it and clean it up.

I really really dislike the Catholic Church a LOT, but I supported John Kerry for president, because I do not equate ones chosen religen with the person. People can take what they like from a church and leave behind what they dont like. I dont choose to do that, but others do, and I have learned to respect that!

It isn't his chosen religion that they speak against, and the comparison is still preposterous. One is entirely negative to our society today, the other is simply placing a higher value on a fetus than you do. They are not comparative at all.

We all know you hate the catholic church a lot. I find Mormons weird but that doesn't mean I wouldn't vote for Romney.

However, Obama is simply "christian" and had a choice of hundreds of churches and likely could have found one without hate whitey rhetoric to lend his credibility to.

 

[Jarod]

It isn't his chosen religion that they speak against, and the comparison is still preposterous. One is entirely negative to our society today, the other is simply placing a higher value on a fetus than you do. They are not comparative at all.

We all know you hate the catholic church a lot. I find Mormons weird but that doesn't mean I wouldn't vote for Romney.

However, Obama is simply "christian" and had a choice of hundreds of churches and likely could have found one without hate whitey rhetoric to lend his credibility to.

1) I disagree that they place a higher value on the fetus than I do. (side issue Id be happy to discuss sometime)
2) Just belinging to a church does not indicate a decision to lend your creditability to it.
3) Its not merely the Abortion issue its lots of issues.

Just because a man is a Catholic does not mean he is a sexist, a sexualist, anti-freedom, or abusive.

Just because a man belings to Obama's church does not mean he is racist.
Its as simple as that.

 

[Damocles]

1) I disagree that they place a higher value on the fetus than I do. (side issue Id be happy to discuss sometime)

It doesn't matter, for those who think that killing a fetus is okay if you choose to do it definitely value a fetus less than a person who thinks it is never okay and considers it the same thing as infanticide.

2) Just belinging to a church does not indicate a decision to lend your creditability to it.

It does if you are a popular US Senator.

3) Its not merely the Abortion issue its lots of issues.

Yet you used the abortion issue in your comparison, and it was one of the worst ever comparisons I have seen.

Just because a man is a Catholic does not mean he is a sexist, a sexualist, anti-freedom, or abusive.

Just because a man belings to Obama's church does not mean he is racist.
Its as simple as that.

It will continue to appear to others that he chose this person to be the person who spoke to his spirit about God, because it is what he did. And they know that they would not have sat in a service for long when they were being fed that rather than the word of God....

Just as a Catholic can choose a different Parish if they believe that the Priest speaks to their spirit in ways they do not wish to be spoken to.

 

[Jarod]

It doesn't matter, for those who think that killing a fetus is okay if you choose to do it definitely value a fetus less than a person who thinks it is never okay and considers it the same thing as infanticide.



It does if you are a popular US Senator.



Yet you used the abortion issue in your comparison, and it was one of the worst ever comparisons I have seen.



It will continue to appear to others that he chose this person to be the person who spoke to his spirit about God, because it is what he did. And they know that they would not have sat in a service for long when they were being fed that rather than the word of God....

Just as a Catholic can choose a different Parish if they believe that the Priest speaks to their spirit in ways they do not wish to be spoken to.

1) He was not a popular U.S. Senator when he started with that church.
2) Because you did not like the Abortion comparison I gave you many more examples.
3) They can think they value life more than me all they want, they are wrong.
4) Catholics are not supost to be members of a church outside the one they are districted for, I know this because its a real problem here in Palm Beach because they all want to be "members" of the one that Kennedy went to.

 

[Damocles]

1) He was not a popular U.S. Senator when he started with that church.

But when he became one he then lent credibility to a church that preached that hate from a pulpit.

2) Because you did not like the Abortion comparison I gave you many more examples.

You've given no others in this thread. And it isn't me who "didn't like" it, it is me who pointed out what a terrible comparison it is. It's like comparing poison with orange juice.

3) They can think they value life more than me all they want, they are wrong.

It isn't that they think that, it is that they do. If you believe that there is any moral reason whatsoever to allow people to kill the fetus (as many do by saying it is their choice) then they value that particular life more than you do. Again, if you truly believe that it is a child what moral reason could there be to allow others to kill it?

4) Catholics are not supost to be members of a church outside the one they are districted for, I know this because its a real problem here in Palm Beach because they all want to be "members" of the one that Kennedy went to.

They don't have to be, Parishes have different Priests that teach different things and Catholics can definitely go to any of the catholic churches even if they are not living within the parish district.

Your comparisons are garbage. Many, many catholics don't go at all because of "little" disagreements.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

1) I disagree that they place a higher value on the fetus than I do. (side issue Id be happy to discuss sometime)
2) Just belinging to a church does not indicate a decision to lend your creditability to it.
3) Its not merely the Abortion issue its lots of issues.

Just because a man is a Catholic does not mean he is a sexist, a sexualist, anti-freedom, or abusive.

Just because a man belings to Obama's church does not mean he is racist.
Its as simple as that.

That is ridiculous...

Of course they place a higher value on the childs life than you do....

1) You continue to call it a "fetus" which is simply a STAGE of development of the human child.

2) While you may personally find abortion distasteful, you are willing to allow others to take the life of the child.... how exactly is that the same as their not wanting any child to lose his/her life due to "choice"

Also.... no one said Obama was a racist simply for the fact that Wright made a racist comment. What people wanted to know was Obamas position on Wrights racist comments.

 

[Minister of Truth]

Being pro-life is. That's why pro-choicers should leave the church because they disagree with a person that values something that is alive. At least according to this thread. It's the same thing as racist backwards comments better uttered in your house than in public.

I agree. Anyone who attends Catholic Mass and is pro-choice should stop pretending to be Catholic and leave the Church pronto. Kind of like Luther after he began to examine his faith during the indulgence fiasco. He discovered that he disagreed with the Church on many issues and began to distance himself more and more...

 

[Jarod]

But when he became one he then lent credibility to a church that preached that hate from a pulpit.



You've given no others in this thread. And it isn't me who "didn't like" it, it is me who pointed out what a terrible comparison it is. It's like comparing poison with orange juice.



It isn't that they think that, it is that they do. If you believe that there is any moral reason whatsoever to allow people to kill the fetus (as many do by saying it is their choice) then they value that particular life more than you do. Again, if you truly believe that it is a child what moral reason could there be to allow others to kill it?



They don't have to be, Parishes have different Priests that teach different things and Catholics can definitely go to any of the catholic churches even if they are not living within the parish district.

Your comparisons are garbage. Many, many catholics don't go at all because of "little" disagreements.

1) ABORTION - I personally do not belive there is a moral reason to kill a fetus, I just am not so arrogant that I feel I can make that decision for women who find themselves in a difficult position.

2) I have offered other examples. The sexism of the Catholic church by not allowing women in leadership positions. The sexualism of the Catholic church based on there position on Gays. The anti-freedom positions of the Catholic church. The illresponsability of the Gatholic Church. The abusiveness of the Catholic for its use of guilt and fear to control people.

3) A Catholic priest faces "punishment" if he expresses a "pro-choice" opinion, if he agrees to perform a marriage ceramony outside the bounds of a church building, if he engages in homosexual activity or conduct that illistrates approval of homosexuality, if he expresses an opinion that indicated he belives women should be ordaned as priests.

4) There is a rule about belonging to "parishes" outside your district, you cannot get married outside your parrash without all kinds of approval. Its a big issue here amung Palm Beach County Catholics as they all want to get married, there children chrisened or whatever at St. Edwards the "parrish" Kennedy belonged to.

 

[Jarod]

That is ridiculous...

Of course they place a higher value on the childs life than you do....

1) You continue to call it a "fetus" which is simply a STAGE of development of the human child.

2) While you may personally find abortion distasteful, you are willing to allow others to take the life of the child.... how exactly is that the same as their not wanting any child to lose his/her life due to "choice"

Also.... no one said Obama was a racist simply for the fact that Wright made a racist comment. What people wanted to know was Obamas position on Wrights racist comments.

1) I dont make that decision for other people.
2) I dont belive making it illegal would save a single fetus. In fact I belive it would likely ultimatly end up in the loss of more life. ( so maybe I value the life of a fetus more than a pro-choicer does)
3) It is a fetus, what would you have me call it?
4) Obama gave his position on racist comments.

 

[Jarod]

I agree. Anyone who attends Catholic Mass and is pro-choice should stop pretending to be Catholic and leave the Church pronto. Kind of like Luther after he began to examine his faith during the indulgence fiasco. He discovered that he disagreed with the Church on many issues and began to distance himself more and more...

Thank God for Luther, he saved Christianity in my opinion, and the souls of many people.

Also he made the first gigant step toward allowing people to realize the ability to have a relationship with God, without a church.

 

[Damocles]

1) ABORTION - I personally do not belive there is a moral reason to kill a fetus, I just am not so arrogant that I feel I can make that decision for women who find themselves in a difficult position.

If there is no justification for an action then "difficult position" is not an excuse or a valid reason to suddenly allow it, and certainly not a reason to say "I am not so arrogant". We are "arrogant" enough to make laws against infanticide regardless of difficult positions. Why you might wonder? I mean, it is arrogant to assume you know the right of the situation and shouldn't they live in a house they are "wanted" in? Yet those lives not seen are dismissed as valued enough to save. This is an excuse to pretend you put the same value on that life while still allowing another to take it by "choice". They clearly put a higher value on it as they believe that it is so wrong that "difficult positions" or not it is still wrong.

2) I have offered other examples. The sexism of the Catholic church by not allowing women in leadership positions. The sexualism of the Catholic church based on there position on Gays. The anti-freedom positions of the Catholic church. The illresponsability of the Gatholic Church. The abusiveness of the Catholic for its use of guilt and fear to control people.

And if you disagree with those positions you should leave. I agree.

3) A Catholic priest faces "punishment" if he expresses a "pro-choice" opinion, if he agrees to perform a marriage ceramony outside the bounds of a church building, if he engages in homosexual activity or conduct that illistrates approval of homosexuality, if he expresses an opinion that indicated he belives women should be ordaned as priests.

However, a Priest can choose what he is speaking on and not speak on subjects that he finds objectionable while stressing those he finds important. You can decide to listen to one who finds the same things important as you do even if you can't get married there because it isn't your parish. BTW - The rules on getting married are often looked past. My sister and her hubby hitched up using his Uncle as the priest and it certainly wasn't his parish.

4) There is a rule about belonging to "parishes" outside your district, you cannot get married outside your parrash without all kinds of approval. Its a big issue here amung Palm Beach County Catholics as they all want to get married, there children chrisened or whatever at St. Edwards the "parrish" Kennedy belonged to.

Belonging and going to a church are two different things. You can go to any of the churches you wish, you just have to get married in the one nearby. It is silly to pretend that they are incapable of going to a different church.

 

[Jarod]

If there is no justification for an action then "difficult position" is not an excuse and certainly not a reason to say "I am not so arrogant". This is an excuse to pretend you put the same value on that life while still allowing another to take it by "choice".



And if you disagree with those positions you should leave. I agree.



However, a Priest can choose what he is speaking on and not speak on subjects that he finds objectionable while stressing those he finds important. You can decide to listen to one who finds the same things important as you do.



Belonging and going to a church are two different things. You can go to any of the churches you wish, you just have to get married in the one nearby. It is silly to pretend that they are incapable of going to a different church.

1) ABORTION - I dont make those type of decisions for other people, no matter how much I value the life of a fetus. I also do not belive making abortion illegal would save a single life, ( I guess I value the fetus more than anti-choicers) I belive the money, time, energy and effort spent trying to make abortion illegal would save more "lives" if it were spent trying to reduce the reasons for abortion. I CLAIM TO CARE MORE FOR THE FETUS THAN ANTI-CHOICERS

2) Regardless if you belive one should leave if he/she disagrees with particular issues, my point is that we did not attack Kerry or Kennedy for not leaving when they disagreed with these issues.

3) Obama has pointed out that he did make such choices about who and what to believe, he took the good whilst leaving behind what he did not agree with. I am sure there were other leaders at Obama's church he chose to listen to.

 

[Damocles]

1) ABORTION - I dont make those type of decisions for other people, no matter how much I value the life of a fetus. I also do not belive making abortion illegal would save a single life, ( I guess I value the fetus more than anti-choicers) I belive the money, time, energy and effort spent trying to make abortion illegal would save more "lives" if it were spent trying to reduce the reasons for abortion. I CLAIM TO CARE MORE FOR THE FETUS THAN ANTI-CHOICERS

You do. You say that 2 minutes after birth there is no "difficult situation" strong enough to give cause, but 2 minutes before birth there "could be" and it would be "arrogant" to believe otherwise. The reality is the belief that a fetus is a child and because of that there is not even one excuse other than to save your own life to be able to take it with morality definitely puts more value on that life than saying, "It would be arrogant for me to believe it strongly enough to make a law."

2) Regardless if you belive one should leave if he/she disagrees with particular issues, my point is that we did not attack Kerry or Kennedy for not leaving when they disagreed with these issues.

I think this is because they understand that Catholics have no choice but to go to a Catholic church per their beliefs. While protestants have all the choice in the world.

3) Obama has pointed out that he did make such choices about who and what to believe, he took the good whilst leaving behind what he did not agree with. I am sure there were other leaders at Obama's church he chose to listen to.

Not, apparently, that he believed in strong enough to give a position in his campaign as he did with the pastor who used the pulpit to preach racism and hatred.

I would leave a church that taught racism from a pulpit, I would expect a candidate to do the same. If they don't I believe that there is a part of them that agrees with what is taught.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

1) ABORTION - I dont make those type of decisions for other people, no matter how much I value the life of a fetus. I also do not belive making abortion illegal would save a single life, ( I guess I value the fetus more than anti-choicers) I belive the money, time, energy and effort spent trying to make abortion illegal would save more "lives" if it were spent trying to reduce the reasons for abortion. I CLAIM TO CARE MORE FOR THE FETUS THAN ANTI-CHOICERS

2) Regardless if you belive one should leave if he/she disagrees with particular issues, my point is that we did not attack Kerry or Kennedy for not leaving when they disagreed with these issues.

3) Obama has pointed out that he did make such choices about who and what to believe, he took the good whilst leaving behind what he did not agree with. I am sure there were other leaders at Obama's church he chose to listen to.

Ah yes, the whole... lets call them ant-choice as it sounds like they want to remove rights and choice. You have the choice to have sex or not. If you choose to have sex, you have the choice to use protection or not. Any idiot knows that if you have sex, protected or not, there is still a chance the woman can get pregnant. If you proceed, that is your choice. We are RESPONSIBLE for the choices we make. Shirking that responsibility and taking away the rights of the child should not be a "choice".

So you most certainly do not value the LIFE of the child more than pro-life people. As is evidence in your ingnorant insistance upon calling the child by a STAGE of its development. Just remember.... their is no magic baby fairy that comes along and turns it into a "person" or "human".

 

[Jarod]

You do. You say that 2 minutes after birth there is no "difficult situation" strong enough to give cause, but 2 minutes before birth there "could be" and it would be "arrogant" to believe otherwise. The reality is the belief that a fetus is a child and because of that there is not even one excuse other than to save your own life to be able to take it with morality definitely puts more value on that life than saying, "It would be arrogant for me to believe it strongly enough to make a law."



I think this is because they understand that Catholics have no choice but to go to a Catholic church per their beliefs. While protestants have all the choice in the world.



Not, apparently, that he believed in strong enough to give a position in his campaign as he did with the pastor who used the pulpit to preach racism and hatred.

I would leave a church that taught racism from a pulpit, I would expect a candidate to do the same. If they don't I believe that there is a part of them that agrees with what is taught.

1) Abortion - Its not that I value the life of the fetus any less, I just value the life of the mother as well.

2) Catholics can leave the Cathloic church and remain Christians, (Thanks to Luther) Just like Obama could leave his church and still remain Christian.

3) This guy had a position in his campaign?

4) I would leave a church that taught racism from teh pulpit also, I would have left the Catholic Church had I ever been a member, however I will not require that of another person, especally if he renounces the parts I find offensive. A person is bigger than there religen.

 

[Jarod]

Ah yes, the whole... lets call them ant-choice as it sounds like they want to remove rights and choice. You have the choice to have sex or not. If you choose to have sex, you have the choice to use protection or not. Any idiot knows that if you have sex, protected or not, there is still a chance the woman can get pregnant. If you proceed, that is your choice. We are RESPONSIBLE for the choices we make. Shirking that responsibility and taking away the rights of the child should not be a "choice".

So you most certainly do not value the LIFE of the child more than pro-life people. As is evidence in your ingnorant insistance upon calling the child by a STAGE of its development. Just remember.... their is no magic baby fairy that comes along and turns it into a "person" or "human".

Plenty of people do belive that there is a magic baby ferry, in fact many Catholics belive that at some point a soul is "given" to the developing fetus.

No matter what you call it, its the same thing and what you call it does not indicate how much you value it. Personally I belive that if the time money and effort that put toward making abortion illegal were spend more directly on ending the need for abortion... we would have less abortions. THUS IT CAN BE SAID THAT BELIVEING LIKE I DO INDICATES THAT I VALUE THE LIFE MORE, anti-choicers VAULE THE LAW MORE THAN THE LIFE.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Plenty of people do belive that there is a magic baby ferry, in fact many Catholics belive that at some point a soul is "given" to the developing fetus.

No matter what you call it, its the same thing and what you call it does not indicate how much you value it. Personally I belive that if the time money and effort that put toward making abortion illegal were spend more directly on ending the need for abortion... we would have less abortions. THUS IT CAN BE SAID THAT BELIVEING LIKE I DO INDICATES THAT I VALUE THE LIFE MORE, anti-choicers VAULE THE LAW MORE THAN THE LIFE.

You can bring religion into the equation as much as you want... I am agnostic.

Genetically.... it is the offspring of two humans, it must therefore be human. It is alive.... thus you have a human life.

There is a difference in calling it a fetus vs. a child. By calling it a "fetus", which again is simply a stage of the childs development, you are attempting to dehumanize it. It is a nice little spin created by the pro-abortion crowd to try to be more acceptable.... it obviously worked on you. As did their whole "pro-choice" bullshit.

You are either FOR abortions being legal or you are AGAINST abortions being legal.

The whole "pro-choice" thing is equivalent to ..... "well, I think murder is wrong, but I think it is ok if others CHOOSE to do it... but, but I still don't approve"

 

[Jarod]

You can bring religion into the equation as much as you want... I am agnostic.

Genetically.... it is the offspring of two humans, it must therefore be human. It is alive.... thus you have a human life.

There is a difference in calling it a fetus vs. a child. By calling it a "fetus", which again is simply a stage of the childs development, you are attempting to dehumanize it. It is a nice little spin created by the pro-abortion crowd to try to be more acceptable.... it obviously worked on you. As did their whole "pro-choice" bullshit.

You are either FOR abortions being legal or you are AGAINST abortions being legal.

The whole "pro-choice" thing is equivalent to ..... "well, I think murder is wrong, but I think it is ok if others CHOOSE to do it... but, but I still don't approve"

WRONG, I belive abortion is wrong, but I belive that the most efficent way of ending it, the way that will save more lives is to abandon the fight to make it illegal and spend that money and effort on an attempt to cure the ills that result in abortion.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

WRONG, I belive abortion is wrong, but I belive that the most efficent way of ending it, the way that will save more lives is to abandon the fight to make it illegal and spend that money and effort on an attempt to cure the ills that result in abortion.

Deliberately ending an innocent humans life is the same. Regardless of how you attempt to justify it.

Convenience is the ill that results in abortion.