"Rats vote for Viagra and other erectile dysfunction drugs for rapists, pedophiles

Your "Energizer Bunny" method of debate is a loser. I've schooled you on this at least twice now, you've as much as admitted that each time, now you repeat your original statements, proving yourself either unable to remember what happened yesterday or simply a liar. Take your pick.

Do you know who James Madison was?

It is you who has trouble remembering. I have asked, repeatedly, what is in the Constitution that leads you to believe medical care is unconstitutional?

Try and understand this: "The Preamble to the United States Constitution is a brief introductory statement of the fundamental purposes and guiding principles that the Constitution is meant to serve. In general terms it states, and courts have referred to it as reliable evidence of, the Founding Fathers' intentions regarding the Constitution's meaning and what they hoped it would achieve (especially as compared with the Articles of Confederation)."
Preamble to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg" class="image" title="Great Seal of the United States"><img alt="Great Seal of the United States" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg/125px-US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/b/be/US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg/125px-US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg.png

Let's start at the beginning. Tell me, in your own words, what you think that preceding statement means. We'll start there and work our way through it.
 
It is you who has trouble remembering. I have asked, repeatedly, what is in the Constitution that leads you to believe medical care is unconstitutional?

Try and understand this: "The Preamble to the United States Constitution is a brief introductory statement of the fundamental purposes and guiding principles that the Constitution is meant to serve. In general terms it states, and courts have referred to it as reliable evidence of, the Founding Fathers' intentions regarding the Constitution's meaning and what they hoped it would achieve (especially as compared with the Articles of Confederation)."
Preamble to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Let's start at the beginning. Tell me, in your own words, what you think that preceding statement means. We'll start there and work our way through it.

Just look through our past discussions during the last few days.

Again, can you tell me who James Madison was?
 
It is you who has trouble remembering. I have asked, repeatedly, what is in the Constitution that leads you to believe medical care is unconstitutional?

Try and understand this: "The Preamble to the United States Constitution is a brief introductory statement of the fundamental purposes and guiding principles that the Constitution is meant to serve. In general terms it states, and courts have referred to it as reliable evidence of, the Founding Fathers' intentions regarding the Constitution's meaning and what they hoped it would achieve (especially as compared with the Articles of Confederation)."
Preamble to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Let's start at the beginning. Tell me, in your own words, what you think that preceding statement means. We'll start there and work our way through it.


Southern Boy claims Wikipedia isn't a trustworty source.
 
Just look through our past discussions during the last few days.

Again, can you tell me who James Madison was?

You claim the health plan is usurping the Constitution. Explain why. Give us something to work with. What did Madison write that leads you to believe that?
 
You claim the health plan is usurping the Constitution. Explain why. Give us something to work with. What did Madison write that leads you to believe that?

For the third time:


Federalist 14:

In the first place it is to be remembered that the general government is not to be charged with the whole power of making and administering laws. Its jurisdiction is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any. The subordinate governments, which can extend their care to all those other subjects which can be separately provided for, will retain their due authority and activity.

And Federalist 41:

It has been urged and echoed, that the power ``to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,'' amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction. Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. A power to destroy the freedom of the press, the trial by jury, or even to regulate the course of descents, or the forms of conveyances, must be very singularly expressed by the terms ``to raise money for the general welfare. ''But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? If the different parts of the same instrument ought to be so expounded, as to give meaning to every part which will bear it, shall one part of the same sentence be excluded altogether from a share in the meaning; and shall the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent, and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning, and can have no other effect than to confound and mislead, is an absurdity, which, as we are reduced to the dilemma of charging either on the authors of the objection or on the authors of the Constitution, we must take the liberty of supposing, had not its origin with the latter. The objection here is the more extraordinary, as it appears that the language used by the convention is a copy from the articles of Confederation. The objects of the Union among the States, as described in article third, are ``their common defense, security of their liberties, and mutual and general welfare. '' The terms of article eighth are still more identical: ``All charges of war and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defense or general welfare, and allowed by the United States in Congress, shall be defrayed out of a common treasury,'' etc. A similar language again occurs in article ninth. Construe either of these articles by the rules which would justify the construction put on the new Constitution, and they vest in the existing Congress a power to legislate in all cases whatsoever. But what would have been thought of that assembly, if, attaching themselves to these general expressions, and disregarding the specifications which ascertain and limit their import, they had exercised an unlimited power of providing for the common defense and general welfare? I appeal to the objectors themselves, whether they would in that case have employed the same reasoning in justification of Congress as they now make use of against the convention. How difficult it is for error to escape its own condemnation!

Seems crystal clear to me that Madison meant that limited government would actually have designated limits, in fact, enumerated powers. How about you?

The Constitution says what the the government can do, not what it can't do. That's basic. It starts with "We the People..." and ends (with the Bill or Rights, Amendments IX and X) "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.", and "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

So the fact that the Constitution does not say "The Congress shall have the Power to 'X' " means that Congress doesn't have the Power to 'X'. And that of course includes health care.
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For the third time:

Federalist 14:

And Federalist 41:

Seems crystal clear to me that Madison meant that limited government would actually have designated limits, in fact, enumerated powers. How about you?

.

It is clear. As I have noted previously the Preamble states the fundamental purposes and guiding principles that the Constitution is meant to serve and courts have referred to it as reliable evidence of the Founding Fathers' intentions regarding the Constitution's meaning and what they hoped it would achieve.

Here's something else to consider. (Excerpt) The phrase "to form a more perfect Union" has been construed as referring to the shift to the Constitution from the Articles of Confederation. In this transition, the "Union" was made "more perfect" by the creation of a federal government with enough power to act directly upon citizens, rather than a government with narrowly limited power that could act on citizens (e.g., by imposing taxes) only indirectly through the states. Although the Preamble speaks of perfecting the "Union," and the country is called the "United States of America," the Supreme Court has interpreted the institution created as a government over the people, not an agreement between the States. (End)
Preamble to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg" class="image" title="Great Seal of the United States"><img alt="Great Seal of the United States" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg/125px-US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/b/be/US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg/125px-US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg.png

The Federalist Papers are not the Constitution. In fact, it was found 10 years later that Madison's idea of the Federal Government wasn't working, one reason being the Federal Government had no means to tax and pay for itself. So to constantly refer to/imply the Federalist Papers are the law or the Constitution or how the Federal Government is supposed to work makes no sense.

In 10 short years it was shown Madison's ideas did not work. They sure as hell are not working 200+ years later. There was a "shift to the Constitution from the Articles of Confederation." It is the Constitution we are concerned with, not the Federalist Papers. Seems clear enough to me.
 
It is clear. As I have noted previously the Preamble states the fundamental purposes and guiding principles that the Constitution is meant to serve and courts have referred to it as reliable evidence of the Founding Fathers' intentions regarding the Constitution's meaning and what they hoped it would achieve.

Here's something else to consider. (Excerpt) The phrase "to form a more perfect Union" has been construed as referring to the shift to the Constitution from the Articles of Confederation. In this transition, the "Union" was made "more perfect" by the creation of a federal government with enough power to act directly upon citizens, rather than a government with narrowly limited power that could act on citizens (e.g., by imposing taxes) only indirectly through the states. Although the Preamble speaks of perfecting the "Union," and the country is called the "United States of America," the Supreme Court has interpreted the institution created as a government over the people, not an agreement between the States. (End)
Preamble to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Federalist Papers are not the Constitution. In fact, it was found 10 years later that Madison's idea of the Federal Government wasn't working, one reason being the Federal Government had no means to tax and pay for itself. So to constantly refer to/imply the Federalist Papers are the law or the Constitution or how the Federal Government is supposed to work makes no sense.

In 10 short years it was shown Madison's ideas did not work. They sure as hell are not working 200+ years later. There was a "shift to the Constitution from the Articles of Confederation." It is the Constitution we are concerned with, not the Federalist Papers. Seems clear enough to me.

James Madison had the foresight to address the assertion of your Wiki article directly:

Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning, and can have no other effect than to confound and mislead, is an absurdity...
link

And you continue to bring up the Articles of Confederation as if they have any relevancy. They do not. Again:

You appear to be confused. Madison is the Father of the Constitution, which replaced the Articles of Confederation. His writings in the Federalist were to "sell" the Constitution to the public, and explain his interpretation of it.
 
James Madison had the foresight to address the assertion of your Wiki article directly:

link

And you continue to bring up the Articles of Confederation as if they have any relevancy. They do not. Again:

I'm not bringing up the Articles. We're discussing the Constitution and I ask again, "What part of the Constitution do you interpret as being against government medical?"
 
I'm not bringing up the Articles.
Yes you did, again:

The phrase "to form a more perfect Union" has been construed as referring to the shift to the Constitution from the Articles of Confederation.

I ask again, "What part of the Constitution do you interpret as being against government medical?"

And I repeat, again:

The Constitution says what the the government can do, not what it can't do. That's basic. It starts with "We the People..." and ends (with the Bill or Rights, Amendments IX and X) "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.", and "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

So the fact that the Constitution does not say "The Congress shall have the Power to 'X' " means that Congress doesn't have the Power to 'X'. And that of course includes health care.

Do you have Alzheimer's? You seem to forget something that was discussed not just yesterday, but by yourself two hours ago.
 
The latest CBO report on tort reform legislation includes the costs of defensive medicine and puts the cost savings at 0.5%. Tort reform just doesn't do much of anything on the cost front.

More anecdotal evidence that disputes the CBO figgers:

A substantial number of heart doctors -- about one in four -- say they order medical tests that might not be needed out of fear of getting sued, according to a new study.
http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2010/apr/14/doctors-admit-excess-testing/news-nation-world/
 
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