Religious liberty

F

flaja

New member
Off and on over the past 20 years I have been designing a constitutional amendment that would enable America’s churches to take a more active role in society without facing government interference. I do not wish to have either the Constitution or statutory law define religion, determine what doctrine is or make any commentary on the interrelationship between Christians, God and the Church. I will leave it to individual Christians to decide how they relate to God and what their church is and is not. I do not expect any church or religious organization to do all of the things that this amendment would let them do, but I do want church congregations to have the power to the things listed in this amendment without having to face constant court fights. The more vague the Constitution is, the more chance there will be for litigation.

Church Enabling Amendment

The purpose of this amendment is to expressly define what constitutes a church and by extension a synagogue, a mosque or any other religious community. This amendment is designed to grant churches a broad array of enumerated rights that will protect them from the encroachment of the government and allow them to take a more active role in American society without causing constant First Amendment disputes. And in recognizing these religious rights the public must have the constitutional assurance that churches meet certain qualifications that will insure that they are established for legitimate religious purposes.

Section 1: The ability to freely exercise religion without the undue interference of the state being necessary for the preservation of their constitutional rights and liberties, the American People retain the right to establish churches in accordance with this amendment reserving unto the Congress and the several states the power to regulate and tax churches that may be otherwise established.

Section 2: The Congress shall upon the application of not less than one hundred incorporators and without regard to doctrine or other qualifications, issue a charter for any organization hereby established as a church for the purpose of this amendment, and such charter shall set forth the bylaws and doctrine of the church and the qualifications necessary for the employees, members, clergy, trustees and officers thereof providing that no church may deny membership to any person on account of race or national origin or failure to provide monetary contributions to the church or any employee, member, clergy, trustee or officer thereof.

Section 3: Each church established in accordance with this amendment shall designate not less than fifty persons to serve as trustees for the church as determined by the bylaws of the church and no more than one-half of the total number of trustees shall also be an incorporator, clergy or officer of the church.
Each church established in accordance with this amendment shall designate as the bylaws of the church may direct persons to serve as corporate officers, but no more than one-half of such officers may also be a trustee of the church and no more than one-half of such officers may also be an incorporator of the church.

Section 4: Any church established in accordance with this amendment shall retain the right to worship, to proselytize and to provide for the social welfare of the American People and thereby shall have the power to:
(01) Establish and maintain orphanages and provide adoption services under the regulations which the separate states may devise by law; (02) Provide disability, retirement, unemployment, workers’ compensation and survivors’ pensions as the bylaws of the church may direct and under such regulations as its trustees may devise;
(03) Insure real and chattel property against loss and damage as the bylaws of the church may direct and under such regulations as its trustees may devise;
(04) Establish and maintain hospitals, pharmacies and other medical facilities under the regulations which the Congress and the separate states may devise by law; (05) Establish and maintain libraries, museums, schools, colleges and universities;
(06) Provide nutritional, lodging and other dwelling services as the bylaws of the church may direct and under such regulations as its trustees may devise;
(07) Provide assistance for the enforcement of the criminal laws of the United States and the several states upon the request of the Congress or the legislature of a state;
(08) Establish and maintain banks and other financial institutions under the regulations which the Congress and the separate states may devise by law;
(09) Provide as the bylaws of the church may direct and under such regulations as its trustees may devise, any other benefit to individual persons or associations thereof comparable to such benefits which the Congress or the legislatures of the several states may provide by law for the common welfare of the People of the United States or the People of any state;
(10) Perform any other service or function for the benefit of the general welfare of the United States or any state upon the request of Congress or the legislature of a state;
(11) Acquire private property for the purpose of performing any of the forgoing powers with the consent of and under such regulations as the Congress of the United States or the legislatures of the several states may devise;
(12) Obtain the full faith and credit of the several states for such persons which the Congress of the United States may certify and which the church may employ to implement the foregoing powers- and
(13) Take any action that is necessary and proper for the implementation of the foregoing powers to provide for the social welfare of the American People.

Section 5: Churches established in accordance with this amendment shall retain the right to worship and proselytize without undue regulation of the United States or the several states and thereby shall have the power to:
(01) Acquire, use and convey real property;
(02) Acquire, use and convey chattel property subject to such taxation as may be determined by law;
(03) Conduct lawful commerce subject to such taxation as may be determined by law;
(04) Borrow money;
(05) Exercise freedom of the press in both print and electronic forms under the complete editorial control of the trustees of the church and such persons as they may designate without restrictions as to the number of press enterprises that may be operated;
(06) Petition the government of the United States and the governments of the several states for redress of grievances;
(07) Petition the electors for any office of public trust under the United States and any of the several states;
(08) Peaceably assemble its members and establish visual and audible displays in such places that are procured, established or otherwise maintained by tax revenue within the United States and which are open to the general public;
(09) Conduct, in a manner determined by the bylaws of the church and under such regulations as the trustees thereof may devise, lotteries and other games of chance in any state wherein the government thereof conducts such games;
(10) Acquire, hold and transfer stock in any corporation that may be chartered by the United States or by any one of the several states subject to such taxation as may be determined by law;
(11) Establish for-profit, not-for-profit and non-profit corporations that are necessary and proper for exercising any of the foregoing powers and to peaceably have the full and absolute use of all real property owned by the church or by any corporation wholly established or owned thereby for the purpose of worship, proselytism and providing for the social welfare of the American People.
(12) Exempt from taxation all property and income owned wholly by the church and by any corporation that is wholly established and owned by the church and exempt from taxation the income of any other corporation that may accrue to the church as a consequence of owning shares of stock therein.

Section 6: No employee, member, clergy, trustee, director or officer of any church established in accordance with this amendment or any corporation that is established or owned wholly or in part by any such church shall receive any portion of the revenue, income or property of such church or corporation except as a social welfare benefit or as reasonable compensation for services rendered and no compensation for any individual person shall exceed the value of one-hundred thousand dollars per annum.
The trustees of any church established in accordance with this amendment may require the employees of the church and the employees, directors and officers of any corporation established by the church or by any corporation, the majority of which is owned by the church, to be a member of the church or otherwise adhere to the doctrine thereof without consequence of any law.
The judicial power of the United States and the judicial power of each state shall extend to suits in law or equity within their respective jurisdictions for which a church or any corporation established or owned wholly or in part thereby or any employee, member, clergy, trustee, director or officer thereof shall be a party, but no employee, member, clergy, trustee, director or officer of any such church or corporation shall be questioned in regard to the doctrine of the church except in a time and place which the trustees of the church may determine.

Section 7: The American People and the corporations established thereby shall retain the right to contribute money to the churches that are established in accordance with this amendment for the purpose of securing a social welfare benefit for the contributors and such persons as they may designate and may in any year for which such contributions are made receive credit for any tax or fee that may otherwise be due as a consequence of any law implemented to provide a comparable benefit for the common welfare of the United States or any one of the several states.

Section 8: No provision in this amendment shall be construed to indicate or apply to any religion to the exclusion of any other.
 
Yea gad. Why not just get rid of the first Ammendment all together? What about freedom from religion? Did that ever cross your mind?
 
Mottleydude said:
Yea gad. Why not just get rid of the first Ammendment all together? What about freedom from religion? Did that ever cross your mind?
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Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Christians have an obligation to take the Gospel to the ends of the earth. You cannot place legal restrictions on their proselytism without restricting their 1st Amendment right to the free exercise of their religion. You cannot exclude Christians from politics or commerce or public places without violating their 1st Amendment rights.
 
people in this country have all the religious freedom they could want. it's simply a matter of choice. there is no need to create yet another amendment to the constitution to allow a church to do anything for society.
 
flaja said:
Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Christians have an obligation to take the Gospel to the ends of the earth. You cannot place legal restrictions on their proselytism without restricting their 1st Amendment right to the free exercise of their religion. You cannot exclude Christians from politics or commerce or public places without violating their 1st Amendment rights.
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Most all other religions have the same mandate froim their deity. Which in the case of muslims is also the god of Abraham.

I know. "But mine is the only right religion"

LOL
 
SmarterThanYou said:
people in this country have all the religious freedom they could want.
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Then why do Christians in America have to go to court when they want to pray in a public setting? And why can Christians in San Diego study the Bible in their homes without being harassed by the government? And why can Christian-owned businesses in this country not legally refuse to hire a Sodomite or a feminist or anyone else who doesn’t follow the Christian faith?
 
Topspin said:
wow you claim to be a lawyer and wrote this nazi shit
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I see that your intelligence and understanding of history is matched only by your vocabulary and reasoning skills. If you have a legitimate point to make, surely you could make it without the use of profanity.
 
uscitizen said:
the founders thought much about freedom from religion since the puritans and COE was in their fairly recent history.
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So there were no Catholics, Deists, Lutherans, Unitarians or Methodists among the Founding Fathers?

And if the Founding Fathers meant to protect everybody from religion explain Benjamin Franklin’s motion at the Constitutional Convention calling for prayer:

“Mr. President The small progress we have made after 4 or five weeks
close attendance & continual reasonings with each other -- our different
sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as
many noes as ays, is methinks a melancholy proof of the imperfection of
the Human Understanding. We indeed seem to feel our own want of
political wisdom, since we have been running about in search of it. We
have gone back to ancient history for models of Government, and examined
the different forms of those Republics which having been formed with the
seeds of their own dissolution now no longer exist. And we have viewed
Modern States all round Europe, but find none of their Constitutions
suitable to our circumstances.

“In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to
find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented
to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought
of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our
understandings? In the beginning of the Contest with G. Britain, when we
were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the divine
protection. -- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, & they were graciously
answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed
frequent instances of a superintending providence in our favor. To that
kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on
the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now
forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need
his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live,
the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God Governs in
the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without
his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We
have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord
build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe
this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall
succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of
Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our
projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach
and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may
hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing
Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

“I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the
assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in
this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one
or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that
Service.”

Franklin’s motion was seconded and debated, but no vote was taken after it was realized that the Convention had no funds to pay for a clergyman’s services. However, an alternative motion calling for the Convention to request that a special sermon be preached on the next July 4 and thereafter that the Convention itself would offer daily prayers was made. When attempts to adjourn the Convention so that the alternative motion could be postponed failed, the motion was adopted without debate by the unanimous consent of the delegates, i.e., accepted without opposition and without a vote.
 
uscitizen said:
Most all other religions have the same mandate froim their deity.
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You can document this claim?

Actually the Jews have no such mandate from God. Judaism can accept converts, and non-Jews living in Jewish society must obey Mosaic Law as per Mosaic Law, but the Jews have no obligation to actively convert anyone to Judaism.

Which in the case of muslims is also the god of Abraham.
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A fact that I am well aware of. The Amendment I propose would treat all religions equally and all religions would have the same rights and same lack of government recognition under the amendment.
 
flaja said:
Then why do Christians in America have to go to court when they want to pray in a public setting? And why can Christians in San Diego study the Bible in their homes without being harassed by the government? And why can Christian-owned businesses in this country not legally refuse to hire a Sodomite or a feminist or anyone else who doesn’t follow the Christian faith?
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In a public setting? You mean organized prayer in a setting that is at least partly funded by tax dollars? Because otherwise, they can pray all they want. And the only time there are limitations on prayer is when its organized and led. Anyone can pray anytime they want. Does God hear them less if they are not loudly spoken?

The thing with San Diego is grossly misrepresented in your "poor pitiful, oppressed christians" remarks. There was a single cease and desist order issued concerning building use codes. The county threw out the order and issued an official apology. The order was never about stopping bible study in private homes. It was about enforcing codes aimed at preventing major organizational uses of private residences. And if there were 15+ people attending the meetings, where were the 12 or so cars that would not fit in the driveway parking? A couple more would be in front of the pastor's home, butthe rest would be either parking up the street and blocking other people homes, blocking access to the street for emergency vehicles, or would be causing a nuisance for the neighbors. This is why the initial investigation was done. And if that is considered harrassment, why not investigate the harrassment of pagan stores, pagan celebrations, and halloween celebrations by christians? I assure you that the harrassment by christians was worse.

Its called discrimination. Just like a business owned by a sodomite cannot refuse to hire a christian based solely on their religious beliefs, or a christian cannot be refused service in a pagan owned establishment based solely on the christian's religious beliefs.
 
flaja said:
So there were no Catholics, Deists, Lutherans, Unitarians or Methodists among the Founding Fathers?

And if the Founding Fathers meant to protect everybody from religion explain Benjamin Franklin’s motion at the Constitutional Convention calling for prayer:

“Mr. President The small progress we have made after 4 or five weeks
close attendance & continual reasonings with each other -- our different
sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as
many noes as ays, is methinks a melancholy proof of the imperfection of
the Human Understanding. We indeed seem to feel our own want of
political wisdom, since we have been running about in search of it. We
have gone back to ancient history for models of Government, and examined
the different forms of those Republics which having been formed with the
seeds of their own dissolution now no longer exist. And we have viewed
Modern States all round Europe, but find none of their Constitutions
suitable to our circumstances.

“In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to
find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented
to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought
of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our
understandings? In the beginning of the Contest with G. Britain, when we
were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the divine
protection. -- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, & they were graciously
answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed
frequent instances of a superintending providence in our favor. To that
kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on
the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now
forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need
his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live,
the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God Governs in
the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without
his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We
have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord
build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe
this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall
succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of
Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our
projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach
and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may
hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing
Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

“I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the
assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in
this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one
or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that
Service.”

Franklin’s motion was seconded and debated, but no vote was taken after it was realized that the Convention had no funds to pay for a clergyman’s services. However, an alternative motion calling for the Convention to request that a special sermon be preached on the next July 4 and thereafter that the Convention itself would offer daily prayers was made. When attempts to adjourn the Convention so that the alternative motion could be postponed failed, the motion was adopted without debate by the unanimous consent of the delegates, i.e., accepted without opposition and without a vote.
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Interesting that you should include Deists in your initial question.

They would have been as interested in freedom from religion as freedom of religion.

Also, in the times during which our nation was founded, there was very little need to worry about equality between different religions, since there were very few that were not judeo-christian.

In modern times this is not the case. There are significant populations of hindus, buddhists, pagans, and other faiths in our society.
 
WinterBorn said:
Interesting that you should include Deists in your initial question.

They would have been as interested in freedom from religion as freedom of religion.
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Your documentation for this is what?

Weren't both Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin Deists when they wrote the Declaration of Independence- and still they used religion to justify their actions by invoking the laws of nature and nature's god in that very document?
 
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