PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
odd choice....doesn't that actually provide evidence that your side is doing exactly what you are supposed to be proving my side is doing?.....
Religious liberty
- Thread starter flaja
- Start date
odd choice....doesn't that actually provide evidence that your side is doing exactly what you are supposed to be proving my side is doing?.....
Explain. How am I trying to coerce anybody into anything? The amendment I propose does not mention Christianity once, does not mention God once and does not mention Jesus Christ once. I have used the term church simply because churches represent the idea of religion in American society and jurisprudence. The amendment I propose does not apply to any one religion over any other; it would protect all religions equally. I could have used the term “religious organization” and you still would assume that I am talking only about Christian churches. You think I am trying to promote Christianity with this amendment simply because of your knee-jerk hostility to Christianity.
Your documentation?
What specifically has any of these organization ever done or proposed that would deny religious liberty to anyone?
The idiot in question cannot even keep his organizations straight. Wouldn’t The Christian Broadcasting Network and Regent University pretty much be one and the same since they were both founded by Pat Robertson’s organization?
Also, I seriously doubt that The Susan B. Anthony List would be a conservative Christian organization since it is named after the founder of Feminism.
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WinterBorn
Guest
Several have tried to ban certain books, adult videos and other things. There have also been pressures from some of those organizations to change school curriculum to either exclude teaching evolution or include teaching intelligent design.
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WinterBorn
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Flaja, so far I have seen you argue that your amendment should be passed because:
The threat of taxation of churches being used to destroy them. And this is based on a single remark from a Supreme Court Justice in a single case in 1819.
You do not think that the antidiscrimination laws are fair because you want to be able to avoid hiring sodomites, gays, pagans, and (I'm sure) a list of others.
You have not seen lawsuits filed on behalf of other religions or against other religions.
I think that churches should be taxed. No politician is going to use taxation to destroy churches. They depend on the voting public for their livelihood.
The antidiscrimination law were created for just such reasons as people being refused jobs because of lifestyle or religious beliefs. Do you think businesses should be allowed refuse to hire christians simply because of their beliefs?
I still do not see enough evidence of discriminations to warrant amending the US Constitution.
The threat of taxation of churches being used to destroy them. And this is based on a single remark from a Supreme Court Justice in a single case in 1819.
You do not think that the antidiscrimination laws are fair because you want to be able to avoid hiring sodomites, gays, pagans, and (I'm sure) a list of others.
You have not seen lawsuits filed on behalf of other religions or against other religions.
I think that churches should be taxed. No politician is going to use taxation to destroy churches. They depend on the voting public for their livelihood.
The antidiscrimination law were created for just such reasons as people being refused jobs because of lifestyle or religious beliefs. Do you think businesses should be allowed refuse to hire christians simply because of their beliefs?
I still do not see enough evidence of discriminations to warrant amending the US Constitution.
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WinterBorn
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The Susan B. Anthony List is an organization devoted to getting pro-life women elected to public office. That is hardly a liberal agenda.
Which organizations? Which books? Which videos? Which other things?
And just how is any of this imposing religion on anybody? The sex-industry degrades society regardless of religion, and thus shutting it down serves a societal purpose not associated with religion.
It was Chief Justice John Marshall that made the remark. If you can document that he is wrong, do so.
The antidiscrimination laws are not fair because they compel me to accept and condone and facilitate behavior that my religion says I must condemn.
If you can document that lawsuits involving non-Christian religions have been filed so that these other religions have not received preferential treatment, do so.
You know this how?
And because of this we have a progressive tax system whereby politicians get elected by promising to tax the rich to give government aid to the poor because the poor outnumber the rich at the ballot box. It is too easy for the majority to vote for politicians that will impose taxes that the majority will not have to pay. The same thing could happen if politicians were to promise to tax religious minorities. What would happen if the Baptist majority in the South were to vote for politicians that promise to tax Catholic, Muslims or Jews? If you don’t think politicians would try to gain favor with one religious group by using the government’s power to attack another, you really are a greater fool that I have realized.
If the business isn’t owned by a Christian, yes.
And being pro-life is not necessarily a religious agenda.
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WinterBorn
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I am not saying he is wrong. I am just saying that your entire basis for the desire for a constitutional amendment is a single statement in an 1819 court case and paranoia. There is no real basis for your fear.
No, the antidiscrimination laws do not force you to accept, condone or facilitate any behavior. The do not allow you to exclude qualified employees based on criteria that has nothing to do with the job.
Perhaps there have not been lawsuits because there have been no other religions attempting to close stores on their religious holidays (no matter what the religious beliefs of the store owners). There have been no other religions with monuments of their religious icons placed in state supreme courthouse lobbies. There have been no other religions that have tried to stop other faiths from practicing their religious holidays (like christians have done when trying to stop pagan Samhain celebrations)
They are not going to selectively tax individual religions. The baptists would not vote on a tax against churches because they would be voting to tax their own church too. And any attempt to tax only certain religions would be shot down as discriminatory.
"If the business isn’t owned by a Christian, yes." So the religious belief of the owner would determine whether or not it was discrimination? Thats kinda vague isn't it? The point I am trying to make is that a business should not be allowed to discriminate based on criteria that have nothing to do with the job.
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WinterBorn
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A prime example would be the Christian Coalition helping to back a local church in its attempts to get Of Mice and Men removed from public school libraries and the alternate reading lists because it had the word "goddamn" in it 52 times.
The Christian Civil Liberties Union has been on a campaign to have a book titled Baby-Bebop not only banned but burned.
http://www.inlookout.com/2009/06/18/christian-group-suing-library-to-burn-gay-book/
Numerous christian organizations have attempted to get the Harry Potter books banned.
The sex industry does not degrade any more than the victorian attitudes about sex degrade. But the main point is what give you the authority to determine what I am allowed to watch, read or do in the privacy of my own home? If there is no harm to anyone and only consenting adults are involved, there is no justification for removing adult materials.
No real basis? Then explain:
http://thecurrentpope.com/san-franc...millions-in-suspected-prop-8-retaliation.html
“San Francisco Set to Tax Catholic Church Millions in Suspected Prop 8 Retaliation”
You are an idiot.
My religion says they are not qualified and the law cannot say otherwise without regulating my religion and thus denying me my freedom to worship.
Sunday is not the universal Sabbath among Christian groups. Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah’s Witnesses both have Saturday as their Sabbath/day of worship. Blue laws have a secular purpose, as the Supreme Court declared in 1961.
But non-Christians symbols have been put in public parks, schools, office buildings etcetera.
Oh? When and where have Christians tried to use the law to stop any pagan celebration?
Politicians already selectively tax people based on income and behavior, so why wouldn’t they selectively tax people based on religion if they had a chance to do so?
That is not what I said, jackass. If churches can be legally taxed and politicians are already in the habit of selective taxation, the Baptist majority in the South could easily vote for politicians that would tax Catholics, Jews, Sodomites or Pagans but not tax Baptists.
You know this how?
The religious belief of the owner would determine whether or not a law violates the owner’s freedom of religion. My religions says I cannot hire a Sodomite, and if the law says I have to anyway the law violates my freedom of religion.
You just don’t get it. The law cannot exclude religion from job criteria without telling someone what their religion can be.
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WinterBorn
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"You are an idiot." Nice clear debate point. Good of you to stick to the topic.
No one is saying you have to accept or condone any behavior. You can dislike it as much as you want. But that is different from refusing to allow someone to be considered for a job based on things that have nothing to do with the job criteria. If you hire an accountant, what he does at home, with another consenting adult, is of no concern when hiring him. And what he does at home does not effect you.
When you have a business that is not under the umbrella of a church, you are bound by numerous laws. The antidiscrimination laws are part of that. You want to restrict your christian business to only christian employees and then get mad when the laws says no? And you call me an idiot?
If you work in an office and another employee of that office is gay, how in the world can you demand that we change the US Constitution because your ability to freely exercise your religion is being compromised. Unless I missed the portion of the bible that demands you slay all who are not like you, you have no legal leg to stand on.
What nonchristian symbols have been put in schools, parks and office buildings and have excluded other religious symbols?
Politicians selectively tax based on income. But that does not mean they tax one person who makes $250k and lets another one who makes $250k slide by without being taxed. And attempt to tax churches would mean all churches would be taxed. Otherwise they would have to single out an individual religion by name, and that would be the definition of discrimination.
Your religion forbids you from hiring sodomites? I would be interested in documentation of that religious law.
The government can determine that religion has no reasonable basis for being part of the consideration for the job. To say otherwise is foolish.
If you have a job available then you have a job description. If religious belief is not part of the job itself (not the paranoia of the employer or other employees) then to refuse to allow a person to apply for the job based solely on religious beliefs is discriminatory.
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If you tell me that I have to face fines or lawsuits if I don’t give a person a job even when that person violates my religion you are forcing me to accept the person that my religion says I cannot hire. If you don’t realize this you are an idiot.
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WinterBorn
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What religion are you? Please show me where your religion says you cannot hire someone who is gay or a pagan.
The fact that a person does not follow your religious rules does not mean you are accepting them. It means you cannot discriminate against them.
You want to have your religion be completely free of any government touch at all, remain tax exempt, and you wish to use your religion as an excuse to discriminate.
It sounds to me as though the difference between you and the Taliban is a turban and some explosives.