Revamping the Republican Strategy

Well Dixie, please pick one from the following who could have defeated President Barack Obama...Bachmann, Cain, Trump, Santorum, Perry, Newt

Well, if you read the OP, I already said, I don't think any of them could have defeated Obama. The GOP is currently too fractured, and if attitudes are as indicated by this thread, will remain fractured for another few more election cycles. No one wants to budge on their personal ideologies even a little bit. Libertarian conservatives want to staunchly defy social conservatives at every turn, and refuse to even entertain the idea that social conservatism has some valid points to make. Social conservatives don't want to budge either, they feel it's abandoning principles too vital to conservatism to dump God. So we're stuck... no one wants to give an inch, and this is why the special interest coalition known as the DNC has been winning elections.

At some point (maybe 50 years from now or more) the GOP, if it survives, will realize they need to form a conservative coalition, where ALL SIDES of conservatism are represented at the table, and we don't end up with some moderate watered-down candidate who wins by default because he's not too bad to stomach. It's going to take Libertarians doing some soul searching, as well as social conservatives. We can't defeat the Democrat coalition unless we join forces as conservatives. It's just not going to happen.
 
You've mentioned Akin and Mourdock more in this thread than anyone. No conservatives were out there holding these two up as fine examples to anyone. They made boneheaded statements they shouldn't have made, and Liberals (LIKE YOU) exploited them for political gain. They are certainly not the poster children for Conservatism.

I agree that EXTREME social conservatism won't work. No one is talking about EXTREME social conservatism, except YOU! When did it become "EXTREME" to acknowledge the existence of God? Why do you think it "EXTREME" to believe our nation is founded on the principle that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights from their Creator? Why is that such a volatile thing for pseudo-liberals such as yourself to accept?

Unless you happen to be of Hispanic heritage and you and your family are rolling down the highway in Arizona, especially in Sheriff Joseph Arpaio's county.
 
Well, if you read the OP, I already said, I don't think any of them could have defeated Obama. The GOP is currently too fractured, and if attitudes are as indicated by this thread, will remain fractured for another few more election cycles. No one wants to budge on their personal ideologies even a little bit. Libertarian conservatives want to staunchly defy social conservatives at every turn, and refuse to even entertain the idea that social conservatism has some valid points to make. Social conservatives don't want to budge either, they feel it's abandoning principles too vital to conservatism to dump God. So we're stuck... no one wants to give an inch, and this is why the special interest coalition known as the DNC has been winning elections.

At some point (maybe 50 years from now or more) the GOP, if it survives, will realize they need to form a conservative coalition, where ALL SIDES of conservatism are represented at the table, and we don't end up with some moderate watered-down candidate who wins by default because he's not too bad to stomach. It's going to take Libertarians doing some soul searching, as well as social conservatives. We can't defeat the Democrat coalition unless we join forces as conservatives. It's just not going to happen.

Here is the problem Dixie. Social conservatism has nothing to do with God's teachings, libertarian conservatives have nothing to do with liberty and the conservatism of Edmund Burke now resides in the Democratic Party. And the special interest "of" what you call the coalition known as the DNC is We, the People.
 
Here is the problem Dixie. Social conservatism has nothing to do with God's teachings, libertarian conservatives have nothing to do with liberty and the conservatism of Edmund Burke now resides in the Democratic Party. And the special interest "of" what you call the coalition known as the DNC is We, the People.

Blacks and Hispanics oppose queer marriage. Hispanics are pro life.

They still vote democrat. Why? Discuss.
 
I don't know what any of that has to do with the point that Democrats feel contempt for voters.

The ardently pro choice Ayn Rand has nothing to do with Akin, Mourdock and extreme social conservatives.

My point is Democrats don't feel contempt for voters, their failures in governance is a lack of courage. They fear voters will vote them out of office. Extreme social conservatism most definitely has to do with Ayn Rand's sociopath teaching.
 
Blacks and Hispanics oppose queer marriage. Hispanics are pro life.

They still vote democrat. Why? Discuss.

I will let Mitt Romney's adviser explain it to you: Carlos Gutierrez, Mitt Romney Adviser: 'Latinos 'Were Scared'

Former Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez says the GOP's poor performance with Hispanics is a big part of the reason the party got throttled at the polls on Tuesday.

"The Hispanics I know were scared of the Republican party," he said Sunday on CNN's "State of the Union."

"I think it has to do with our incredibly ridiculous primary process where we force people to say outrageous things," explained Gutierrez, who led Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney's Hispanic Steering Committee.

The GOP, Gutierrez said, is plagued by a disease formed by the far-right of the party.

"I think the disease is the fact that the far right of the party controls the primary process," he said.

BTW, the 'far-right of the party' Gutierrez was talking about...that would be YOU.
 
I will let Mitt Romney's adviser explain it to you: Carlos Gutierrez, Mitt Romney Adviser: 'Latinos 'Were Scared'

Former Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez says the GOP's poor performance with Hispanics is a big part of the reason the party got throttled at the polls on Tuesday.

"The Hispanics I know were scared of the Republican party," he said Sunday on CNN's "State of the Union."

"I think it has to do with our incredibly ridiculous primary process where we force people to say outrageous things," explained Gutierrez, who led Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney's Hispanic Steering Committee.

The GOP, Gutierrez said, is plagued by a disease formed by the far-right of the party.

"I think the disease is the fact that the far right of the party controls the primary process," he said.

BTW, the 'far-right of the party' Gutierrez was talking about...that would be YOU.

What were they "scared of"?
 
I will let Mitt Romney's adviser explain it to you: Carlos Gutierrez, Mitt Romney Adviser: 'Latinos 'Were Scared'

Former Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez says the GOP's poor performance with Hispanics is a big part of the reason the party got throttled at the polls on Tuesday.

"The Hispanics I know were scared of the Republican party," he said Sunday on CNN's "State of the Union."

"I think it has to do with our incredibly ridiculous primary process where we force people to say outrageous things," explained Gutierrez, who led Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney's Hispanic Steering Committee.

The GOP, Gutierrez said, is plagued by a disease formed by the far-right of the party.

"I think the disease is the fact that the far right of the party controls the primary process," he said.

BTW, the 'far-right of the party' Gutierrez was talking about...that would be YOU.

They absolutely forced them to take terrible positions against Latinos and Women in order to win over the large, nutball portion of their base. (as you rightly point out, a few of them are posting here) I am heartened to see numerous voices within the Republican party stating this, because normally they claim they weren't far right enough. Maybe we are seeing the beginning of the end of the so-called Reagan coalition. I assume a far right third party will form. I would be happy to see this because I feel the insanity of the modern day Republican party has pulled the Democratic party rightwards. If sane conservatives have no home in the R party they join the Democratic party! It's annoying.
 
They absolutely forced them to take terrible positions against Latinos and Women in order to win over the large, nutball portion of their base. (as you rightly point out, a few of them are posting here) I am heartened to see numerous voices within the Republican party stating this, because normally they claim they weren't far right enough. Maybe we are seeing the beginning of the end of the so-called Reagan coalition. I assume a far right third party will form. I would be happy to see this because I feel the insanity of the modern day Republican party has pulled the Democratic party rightwards. If sane conservatives have no home in the R party they join the Democratic party! It's annoying.

I hope America can have 3 viable parties one of these days. There just seems to be a whole segment of people who don't really identify with either party, and who would really benefit.

Plus, the far right would never win again.
 
I First of all, the "GOP" didn't pick Mitt Romney as the candidate to run against Barack Obama, the voters did. This was largely due to the fact that they had 9 candidates to pick from, and while most conservatives split their votes between 8 of them, the establishment republicans stuck by Romney, and he won by default.

Yes, nine candidates full of wacky ideas and the voters picked the least mentally deranged. The problem with the so-called “freedom loving party” is they confuse freedom with a lack of help. Their definition of freedom means they have no obligation to help others. We see that every day on here where posters say that paying taxes and helping others is punishment. Can you think of a more twisted philosophy?

Conservatism can't be successfully argued without the presence of a God, it's impossible to make a valid argument for conservative principles without the foundation conservatism is established on. That doesn't mean "religion" has to be a part of this, just the generic belief in our Creator, and endowed, inalienable rights.

The endowed, inalienable rights you talk about were stripped by the very people who claim to believe in them. Regardless of one’s position regarding the Patriot Act it stripped people of one of the most basic rights such as the assumption of innocence. If determined to be a threat a person can be arrested and held without their family’s knowledge of their whereabouts.

The main thing republicans have failed at, is not taking control of the dialogue, and allowing liberals to define the conversation and parameters. We start off in a debate about abortion and morality, when they shouldn't even matter in the debate. We try and defend an argument over "rights" of gays to marry, when we should reject any notion of special rights, we are all equally endowed with the same rights. We're hopelessly trying to argue the "how often do you beat your wife" argument, and failing. All of these issues can be rejected on the basis they shouldn't be a part of what federal government does. Smaller limited federal government should not be dictating morality of social issues, that should be left for the people and states to determine, and the federal government should return to it's rightful role in our lives.

You don’t understand the rightful role of government. The Preamble to the Constitution makes the rightful role crystal clear. “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

Does that sound like they’re saying the government will protect against foreign invaders and to hell with everything else? What’s with “general Welfare and secure the Blessings of Liberty”? Form a more perfect union? Does that sound like the intention of the Founding Fathers was to say to hell with the people, we’ll protect them from invaders but they can suffer and struggle and scrap through life and we don’t give a damn?

The Conservatives tried to blame Obama for the current problems facing the nation by comparing today to 2008, when he was elected. Unemployment. Housing. The economy. Compare, compare, compare. And that’s exactly what people did, compare. But they didn’t compare 2008 to today. They compared 2000 to 2008. They compared unemployment and housing and the economy at the end of a Democratic presidency (2000) to the complete and utter disaster they found at the end of a Republican presidency (2008).

You wonder why the average Conservative wasn’t all hyped up at election time. They watched and listened to the primaries and saw, firsthand, the misfits and public rejects running for leadership. They remembered how the previous Republican leadership almost destroyed the country and then had the gall to propose the people should be left to fend for themselves. Things like, “We’re doing all we can to destroy SS so you better go along with a private plan. We’re going to work on a medical policy but we’re not going to be able to negotiate drug prices so get ready to empty your pockets the next time you require medical care. We’re going to take any and all extra money and literally burn it by making bombs and we’re going to run up deficits to ensure no future government can offer any social plans.” Those were the Republican policies and then along came a "compassionate" conservative who suggested kids should be cleaning toilets to help support their family. Do you honestly believe people feel that’s the way the country should be run?

In msg. #20 you wrote,
Why do you think it "EXTREME" to believe our nation is founded on the principle that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights from their Creator? Why is that such a volatile thing for pseudo-liberals such as yourself to accept?

The problem is “created equal” has been perverted to mean everyone has the same opportunities and are equally capable of attaining a decent life and those who fail to do so fail due to their own willfulness. In other words it’s used as an argument to not help others. Basic common sense tells us people are born with differing strengths and weaknesses and how they fare in society depends largely on where society is at a specific point in time. While Stephen Hawking could make a living at teaching and writing books it’s doubtful he would have been heard of if he had been born in Somalia and as his disease progressed he would have been considered weak and lazy.

How many people are considered weak and lazy in our society? How many people have undiagnosed physical and mental illness? One major thing ObamaCare is going to address is the yearly checkup. Is the lazy individual suffering from something as simple as a vitamin deficiency or is their lethargy due to a thyroid problem? Depression? Etc.

Like with ObamaCare more and more people are realizing it’s not a matter of two political parties differing on how to reach the same goal. It’s the fact they have different goals. People are starting to realize the Repubs are not interested in saving SS. They want it as privatized as possible. The Repubs are not interested in a universal or national health care plan so what can they possibly contribute to finding ways to make it work?

Look at cars. In the past many people serviced their own automobile. Today, that is impossible. The equipment needed just to diagnose the problem is prohibitive. My wife just purchased a new car yesterday. While I can keep a couple of classics on the road I wouldn’t know where to start if her car had a problem. She was instructed to call roadside assistance for any and all problems.

The same principal applies to government. Just as cars are more complex so is life, in general, so people expect government to look after certain things. It’s not freebies. It’s not that people are lazy. It’s not a case of wanting something for nothing. It’s a case of paying the government, through taxes, to look after things that concern the vast majority of citizens. It’s like a city having a snow removal crew rather than each section of town trying to find someone with a plow.

The Preamble “states in general terms, and courts have referred to it as reliable evidence of, the Founding Fathers' intentions regarding the Constitution's meaning and what they hoped the Constitution would achieve.” The intentions of the Founding Fathers and the Constitution’s meaning. Does the reading of the Preamble leave the impression the government didn’t give a damn about the citizens or does it show the exact opposite, that the Founding Fathers’ primary concern was for the people and the people’s welfare and wanting them to receive the blessings of liberty?

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It's always interesting after an election, especially when your side loses. Suddenly, all of the "experts" come out of the woodwork to give you their rather simple notions of how things may have turned out differently, what went wrong, who was to blame, and what needs to be done in the future. Where was all this brilliance and foresight before the elections? It's no surprise that most of these experts espouse ideas they held before the election, and their ideas were simply rejected by the others. We get a really good dose of "if you had listened to me..." and the same old idea is trotted out once again. Ron Paul supporters are literally gloating at the re-election of Barack Obama. A man who is so far removed from anything uttered by Dr. Paul, their respective ideologies exist in completely different universes, but the Paul supporters beam with pride over what they think they accomplished. Nearly 3 million registered republicans sat this election out, and are now expressing pride in what they did. That will teach the GOP to act like they did! But let's really examine some things here, shall we?

First of all, the "GOP" didn't pick Mitt Romney as the candidate to run against Barack Obama, the voters did. This was largely due to the fact that they had 9 candidates to pick from, and while most conservatives split their votes between 8 of them, the establishment republicans stuck by Romney, and he won by default. He was arguably the least conservative of all the candidates, but he wasn't so non-conservative as to upset the apple cart, and he did make an attempt to pretend to be conservative. Over and over, the "experts" told us, Romney is the only candidate who can defeat Obama. Perhaps this was true, but he didn't defeat Obama, an he leaves conservatives scratching their heads trying to figure out what to do now. The very same people who claimed Romney was the only candidate who could defeat Obama, are now telling us we need to abandon God and get away from the social issues. We need to "reach out" to women and minorities more. I personally think they are getting it wrong again, and such a direction would kill any hope of future victory. That doesn't mean we should "double down" on what failed to work, or that we need to stubbornly and defiantly stick with a message that is failing. Clearly, we need to revamp the republican strategy, but we don't do that by abandoning principles.

On abandoning God, we need to understand, Religion and Politics don't mix well. Taking religion out of republican politics doesn't have to mean, completely abandoning God. It is primarily anti-religious seculars who fuel the liberal ideology. Liberalism in general, is rooted in the belief that Government has to be our Savior, that we can't depend on faith in a God that doesn't exist. Liberals believe our rights come from man, ordained through the Constitution, and defined by the courts, they aren't endowed or inalienable. It is the foundation of conservatism to believe our rights come from our Creator and are inalienable and endowed, and not subject to determination by men. Abandoning God means we sacrifice this basic principle and concept before we begin the argument against Liberalism. It's like a NASCAR driver switching to an electric motor because he thinks the traditional motors contribute to global warming. It's a losing proposition.

Conservatism can't be successfully argued without the presence of a God, it's impossible to make a valid argument for conservative principles without the foundation conservatism is established on. That doesn't mean "religion" has to be a part of this, just the generic belief in our Creator, and endowed, inalienable rights. Many conservatives point to Ronald Reagan as a model for where we need to go, and they will point out that Reagan didn't preach social conservatism, but one of the most profound speeches the man ever made, was about a "shining city on a hill" and that is a direct Biblical reference. Reagan found the secret formula for bringing the foundation of God to the table, without introducing religion. In that respect, what republicans need to do, is find a way to articulate their message including God, but not including the religiously-based interpretations of God. That's where their problems have been. God doesn't say gay marriage or abortion is wrong, that is a religious determination based on a religious understanding of God. It's a judgement. Conservatives can stand up for the right to life without relying on religious judgement, because the Constitution explicitly states we have a right to life. The whole entire "marriage" issue can be settled easily, conservatives shouldn't support ANY governmental favoritism toward ANY social domestic arrangement. It's an issue that shouldn't even be on the table.

The main thing republicans have failed at, is not taking control of the dialogue, and allowing liberals to define the conversation and parameters. We start off in a debate about abortion and morality, when they shouldn't even matter in the debate. We try and defend an argument over "rights" of gays to marry, when we should reject any notion of special rights, we are all equally endowed with the same rights. We're hopelessly trying to argue the "how often do you beat your wife" argument, and failing. All of these issues can be rejected on the basis they shouldn't be a part of what federal government does. Smaller limited federal government should not be dictating morality of social issues, that should be left for the people and states to determine, and the federal government should return to it's rightful role in our lives.

Then there is the whole "reach out" thing. What does that really mean? Well, it means we should cater to special interest groups, like the democrats. Does anyone see a problem with our ideology if it is to pattern our opposition? Conservatives should make it clear that we "reach out" to EVERY American. Ronald Reagan brilliantly did this by introducing us to individuals, sharing their individual story with us, to illustrate his points. The democrats have had a field day with this strategy, and taken it to a whole new level, but they use it to promote special interests. We can't out-liberal the liberals, we have to return to a message rooted in equality for all, and not cater to various groups of people. We have to make the argument that, if you are Hispanic, a woman, black, or whatever, you are better off with principled conservatism which enables ALL Americans and floats ALL boats.

Finally, we need a strong conservative voice. Mitt Romney is a great guy, he has done many admirable things, he is a good man and has enormous character, but he was not a conservative who was passionately convicted to conservative principles, and that is what we needed. Who will that voice be? Many are saying, Marco Rubio. I don't know, is it because he is a minority? Or does the man have core conservative convictions, which he is able to deliver in a cohesive conservative message? Because the later is far more important than the former, I promise.
 
Here is the problem Dixie. Social conservatism has nothing to do with God's teachings, libertarian conservatives have nothing to do with liberty and the conservatism of Edmund Burke now resides in the Democratic Party. And the special interest "of" what you call the coalition known as the DNC is We, the People.

Well the thing is, God doesn't teach. The Bible and Jesus may teach, but God is just God. Conservatism devoid of God, fails. It's as simple as that. The ideology is unsupportable without God. Some have taken that fact to the extreme, and that will not work either, we can't have a moral crusade of social conservatism, that will fail as well. The two types of conservatives have to realize and understand the importance of each other, and where our values are mutual. You can't get there trying to throw each other under the bus and blame them for the failure of conservatism.

You also illustrate the fundamental flaw in liberalism. No, you certainly are not "We The People" by a long shot. You are SOME of the people, but you presume to be the only people who matter when you win elections. In a Liberal's mind, 52% = 100% when it comes to the vote. We get no compromise, no bipartisanship, and liberalism crammed down our throats whether we like it or not. Those who complain or take exception, are hooted down and called names. You treat the 48% who didn't vote for you, as if they are the 1% fringe extreme, and that is simply not reality.
 
Well the thing is, God doesn't teach. The Bible and Jesus may teach, but God is just God. Conservatism devoid of God, fails. It's as simple as that. The ideology is unsupportable without God. Some have taken that fact to the extreme, and that will not work either, we can't have a moral crusade of social conservatism, that will fail as well. The two types of conservatives have to realize and understand the importance of each other, and where our values are mutual. You can't get there trying to throw each other under the bus and blame them for the failure of conservatism.

You also illustrate the fundamental flaw in liberalism. No, you certainly are not "We The People" by a long shot. You are SOME of the people, but you presume to be the only people who matter when you win elections. In a Liberal's mind, 52% = 100% when it comes to the vote. We get no compromise, no bipartisanship, and liberalism crammed down our throats whether we like it or not. Those who complain or take exception, are hooted down and called names. You treat the 48% who didn't vote for you, as if they are the 1% fringe extreme, and that is simply not reality.

What social liberalism is crammed down anyone's throat. You're not obliged to marry a man. You're not compelled to have an abortion. Why do conservatives insist on telling other people how to live?
 
Well the thing is, God doesn't teach. The Bible and Jesus may teach, but God is just God. Conservatism devoid of God, fails. It's as simple as that. The ideology is unsupportable without God. Some have taken that fact to the extreme, and that will not work either, we can't have a moral crusade of social conservatism, that will fail as well. The two types of conservatives have to realize and understand the importance of each other, and where our values are mutual. You can't get there trying to throw each other under the bus and blame them for the failure of conservatism.

You also illustrate the fundamental flaw in liberalism. No, you certainly are not "We The People" by a long shot. You are SOME of the people, but you presume to be the only people who matter when you win elections. In a Liberal's mind, 52% = 100% when it comes to the vote. We get no compromise, no bipartisanship, and liberalism crammed down our throats whether we like it or not. Those who complain or take exception, are hooted down and called names. You treat the 48% who didn't vote for you, as if they are the 1% fringe extreme, and that is simply not reality.

No one is hooting and name calling anywhere near as much as conservatives. That is part of the problem. If people supported valuable social programs like Social Security, Medicare or had the nerve to view health care as a basic human right, they were hooted down as socialists, communists, fascists, statists, and MOOCHERS.

In the liberal mind, people always come first...ALWAYS. Conservatives can't believe that, because it would mean that their own beliefs were flawed. So conservatives create a myriad of excuses (i.e. creating dependency for votes) to deny they they don't put people first, except for 3 people" me, myself, and I. In the conservative mind property comes first. Jesus' teachings never put any value in property or recognized borders or man made sovereignty.
 
What social liberalism is crammed down anyone's throat. You're not obliged to marry a man. You're not compelled to have an abortion. Why do conservatives insist on telling other people how to live?

Democrats didn't campaign on making gay marriage legal. Republicans didn't campaign on making abortion illegal. Liberals always run to these two issues in order to divide conservatives. I don't blame you for that, it keeps working! Conservatives are unable to counter the liberals on these wedge issues, and end up getting bogged down (usually among each other) in the morality vs. liberty aspects. Neither should even be an issue, from the conservative standpoint, because small limited government simply doesn't decide these issues at a federal level. IMO, this is where the libertarian-types and social conservatives should be able to find common ground. We don't have to parade around with the Bible on our hand, beating people over the head with morality judgement, we should be advocating small government that doesn't interfere with what the people in a state want to do, with the exception of flagrantly violating constitutional rights, like Jim Crow laws, etc.

When it comes to telling people how they must live, aren't liberals doing just that when they say we can't have school prayer? Telling us all we have to purchase health insurance, isn't that telling us how we can live? How about brainwashing my kids into believing it's morally acceptable to kill unborn babies or advocate homosexual lifestyle? Seems to me, this is a matter of perspective. Again, small government conservatism doesn't need to argue about these things, we should return power to the states and people to decide the issues suitable to them and their communities, and it shouldn't be mandated by federal government. That's not taking a moral position for or against anything, that is taking a position rooted in personal liberty and the constitution. And again, this is the lesson which needs to be learned by both the social conservative and libertarian conservative alike, there is a mutual principle which encompasses what both believe, the proper delivery/person has just not been found. Not that you guys care, but Liberalism can never be defeated if we conservatives continue to engage you in meaningless social morality debates. YOU want to dictate social policy, that is CLEAR! Conservatives should be opposed to the Federal government doing this at all, 'for' or 'against' any particular social policy.

Look it... had Akin or Mourdock said the following, would there have been any problem at all for them:

"I have my own personal views, like every American, but my job as representative of the people, is to ensure that every American has the right to make their own determinations regarding the laws they live by. [Fill in the Blank] can't be resolved or legislated at the Federal level in a smaller limited government, it needs to be, as the Constitution points out, a matter of the state and people."

What's wrong with that? Can social conservatives complain it's not standing up for their values? No. Can Libertarian conservatives claim it's not standing up for personal liberty? No. ....Can Liberals complain? ALWAYS! But they will continue to use these social issues against conservatives to divide and conquer conservatism, as long as conservatives allow them to do so.
 
No one is hooting and name calling anywhere near as much as conservatives. That is part of the problem. If people supported valuable social programs like Social Security, Medicare or had the nerve to view health care as a basic human right, they were hooted down as socialists, communists, fascists, statists, and MOOCHERS.

In the liberal mind, people always come first...ALWAYS. Conservatives can't believe that, because it would mean that their own beliefs were flawed. So conservatives create a myriad of excuses (i.e. creating dependency for votes) to deny they they don't put people first, except for 3 people" me, myself, and I. In the conservative mind property comes first. Jesus' teachings never put any value in property or recognized borders or man made sovereignty.

Social Security and Medicare overwhelmingly passed both House and Senate with a majority of Republican support. The original concept, plan and idea, were the culmination of Republicans and Democrats coming together to solve a problem. Yes, in a very analytic way, you could argue that it is "socialism" but sometimes socialism is best used to solve social problems. In fact, that is pretty much the only useful purpose socialism has.

We do not have any human right to free health care, basic or otherwise. Free health care is something that is given by the action or work of others, and we simply do not have a right to that. You are actually making an argument for slavery here. Think about that.

As for Jesus, I am not going to argue with you on what he taught or what Christians believe or what the Bible says. We don't live in a Theocracy, we never have or will, unless you abandon the Constitution entirely.

YOU don't "put people first" as you claim. You put "certain people" first, and all others second. You continually illustrate my current sig line, in almost everything you stand for. We are not all created equal, some of us need cradle to grave 'entitlement' because they didn't start out with as much as someone else has. Just disregard the countless success stories that have risen from abject and hopeless poverty. Even though they number in the millions, they are insignificant to the liberal. It just can't be done without government hand-outs!

Conservatives believe that all Americans should have equal access to health care, and have helped to establish many programs to provide these services to people who can't afford them. We were even willing to continue making reforms and changes to the health care profession, as well as the insurance profession, to help those in dire need. But conservatives were completely closed out of the debate, shoved into a closet with a gag in their mouths, while liberals formed a special interest smorgasbord and implemented it into law, all on their own. Then the SCOTUS gave it a stamp of approval, and the elections sealed the deal. Obamacare is here to stay, for a while.

Slavery stood for 86 years in America too.
 
Democrats didn't campaign on making gay marriage legal. Republicans didn't campaign on making abortion illegal. Liberals always run to these two issues in order to divide conservatives. I don't blame you for that, it keeps working! Conservatives are unable to counter the liberals on these wedge issues, and end up getting bogged down (usually among each other) in the morality vs. liberty aspects. Neither should even be an issue, from the conservative standpoint, because small limited government simply doesn't decide these issues at a federal level. IMO, this is where the libertarian-types and social conservatives should be able to find common ground. We don't have to parade around with the Bible on our hand, beating people over the head with morality judgement, we should be advocating small government that doesn't interfere with what the people in a state want to do, with the exception of flagrantly violating constitutional rights, like Jim Crow laws, etc.

When it comes to telling people how they must live, aren't liberals doing just that when they say we can't have school prayer? Telling us all we have to purchase health insurance, isn't that telling us how we can live? How about brainwashing my kids into believing it's morally acceptable to kill unborn babies or advocate homosexual lifestyle? Seems to me, this is a matter of perspective. Again, small government conservatism doesn't need to argue about these things, we should return power to the states and people to decide the issues suitable to them and their communities, and it shouldn't be mandated by federal government. That's not taking a moral position for or against anything, that is taking a position rooted in personal liberty and the constitution. And again, this is the lesson which needs to be learned by both the social conservative and libertarian conservative alike, there is a mutual principle which encompasses what both believe, the proper delivery/person has just not been found. Not that you guys care, but Liberalism can never be defeated if we conservatives continue to engage you in meaningless social morality debates. YOU want to dictate social policy, that is CLEAR! Conservatives should be opposed to the Federal government doing this at all, 'for' or 'against' any particular social policy.

Look it... had Akin or Mourdock said the following, would there have been any problem at all for them:

"I have my own personal views, like every American, but my job as representative of the people, is to ensure that every American has the right to make their own determinations regarding the laws they live by. [Fill in the Blank] can't be resolved or legislated at the Federal level in a smaller limited government, it needs to be, as the Constitution points out, a matter of the state and people."

What's wrong with that? Can social conservatives complain it's not standing up for their values? No. Can Libertarian conservatives claim it's not standing up for personal liberty? No. ....Can Liberals complain? ALWAYS! But they will continue to use these social issues against conservatives to divide and conquer conservatism, as long as conservatives allow them to do so.


Republican Platform Panel Backs Blanket Ban on Abortion
By James Rowley - Aug 22, 2012 12:00 AM ET

Republican drafters of their party’s 2012 platform reaffirmed support for a constitutional amendment banning abortion that would allow no exception for terminating pregnancies caused by rape.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-20/republican-platform-won-t-protect-mortgage-tax-deduction.html
 
Social Security and Medicare overwhelmingly passed both House and Senate with a majority of Republican support. The original concept, plan and idea, were the culmination of Republicans and Democrats coming together to solve a problem. Yes, in a very analytic way, you could argue that it is "socialism" but sometimes socialism is best used to solve social problems. In fact, that is pretty much the only useful purpose socialism has.

We do not have any human right to free health care, basic or otherwise. Free health care is something that is given by the action or work of others, and we simply do not have a right to that. You are actually making an argument for slavery here. Think about that.

As for Jesus, I am not going to argue with you on what he taught or what Christians believe or what the Bible says. We don't live in a Theocracy, we never have or will, unless you abandon the Constitution entirely.

YOU don't "put people first" as you claim. You put "certain people" first, and all others second. You continually illustrate my current sig line, in almost everything you stand for. We are not all created equal, some of us need cradle to grave 'entitlement' because they didn't start out with as much as someone else has. Just disregard the countless success stories that have risen from abject and hopeless poverty. Even though they number in the millions, they are insignificant to the liberal. It just can't be done without government hand-outs!

Conservatives believe that all Americans should have equal access to health care, and have helped to establish many programs to provide these services to people who can't afford them. We were even willing to continue making reforms and changes to the health care profession, as well as the insurance profession, to help those in dire need. But conservatives were completely closed out of the debate, shoved into a closet with a gag in their mouths, while liberals formed a special interest smorgasbord and implemented it into law, all on their own. Then the SCOTUS gave it a stamp of approval, and the elections sealed the deal. Obamacare is here to stay, for a while.

Slavery stood for 86 years in America too.

Dixie, you keep FORGETTING:

When obstructionism prevents reforms and legislation that were part of your own Republican agenda, it becomes a form of domestic terrorism IMO.

Republicans were well aware that health care reform was paramount to repairing our economy and protecting the financial security of American families. McCain, and Republicans ALSO ran on promising health care reforms.

But Republicans made a conscious and collective decision to block and undermine any reform. Because it would be seen as a success for our President.

David Frum, the Republican and former economic speechwriter for George W. Bush was fired by the American Enterprise Institute for writing this Waterloo op-ed, a right wing think tank whose 'scholars' ironically were ordered not to speak to the media on the subject of health care reform, because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

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Waterloo
by David Frum

At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994.

This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none.

Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.

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The final irony:
The health care bill Obama and Democrats passed was not the reform liberals and progressives sought. It was and IS a carbon copy of the Republican bills proposed by Senator John Chafee, (R-R.I) and Senate Minority Leader Bob Dole in the early 1990's. Including the conservative idea...the individual mandate.
 
The problem here is one Dixie misses completely, the republican party is a hodgepodge of talking heads. Whatever conservative means it doesn't mean republican. The reason they lost is because the odd and confusing message they presented was not appealing to enough Americans. Anyone even know what that message was? The republican party today is run by a bunch of talking heads who don't work, who don't contribute, who do nothing but talk BS which comes to be reality. The BS fits nowhere in a diverse America. Meanwhile back at the ranch things get done: stimulus job growth, DADT repealed, immigration issues, healthcare moves forward, regulations re-established, women's rights, bad guys are caught....

Meanwhile the republicans are listening to the likes of Hannity Limbaugh Coulter Savage, Ingram, Fox, et al whining about some lost fantasy world in which they attach meanings that amount to nothing real. When you do nothing how is it you expect to win anything? Rich spigots of useless information who accomplish nothing.

"Americans may have elected a Republican president and Congress, but they are unlikely to go back to a world in which one illness can devastate their last years or one storm can destroy their lives. Because government is the one institution that allows us some control over our future, conservatism, which distrusts government so much, is best viewed as a natural counter to liberalism, which, if left unchecked, tends towards wasteful bureaucracy. Indeed, as the Bush administration fully proves, conservatism remains a force of opposition even when it purports to be a governance party. And so the best that can be hoped for is that American voters will do for conservatives what they are unable to do themselves: to vote them out of office.""Why Conservatives Can't Govern" by Alan Wolfe
 
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